a guy at the range was shooting illegal SBRs

Ocraknife · March 9, 2017, 06:23 PM

I was at a public range today - a Tennessee Wildlife Resource Agency range. This particular range doesn't have a range officer so sometimes people will do some interesting things there.

Anyway, this nice man and what looked to be his family took a spot next to me and they started shooting. I noticed he had two gas operated pistols, one was basically an AR variant and the other was an AK; both had collapsible stocks on both of them.

I complemented him on his SBRs and he said, oh, I didn't file any papers or anything - they're still just pistols.

I didn't really know what to say. He knew a lot about guns and had some beautiful M1s with him, he knew he needed an NFA stamp to legally use those guns as rifles - which he did. I was just surprised that someone would be that cavalier about it.

Anyway, I thought thought I'd share my range experience.

random guy · March 9, 2017, 06:43 PM

On the off chance that he was under some misconception, I'd have felt compelled to (in the friendliest possible terms) reinforce the status of these guns and the severe penalties if he runs across the wrong people while in possession of them.

This is not the place to test the limits, much less blithely drive your monster truck through them while blasting "Detroit Rock City" on the stereo.

I wonder how the guns came to be as they are. An AR can easily become an SBR but an AK would seem to take more work.

GarandTd · March 9, 2017, 07:49 PM

There are AK style pistols available these days. Slap on a folding stock and....Presto! SBR.

Mobuck · March 9, 2017, 08:39 PM

"I noticed he had two gas operated pistols, one was basically an AR variant and the other was an AK; both had collapsible stocks on both of them."

An AR with a "KAK or SIG stock" looks very much like an SBR but is a fully legal "pistol"(as long as you don't fire it with the back end of the forearm support touching your shoulder).

random guy · March 9, 2017, 08:46 PM

Quote:

An AR with a "KAK or SIG stock" looks very much like an SBR...

Yeah, close enough for me and without the felony or even the tax shakedown.

NateKirk · March 9, 2017, 09:44 PM

I think the best response to the situation is to mind your own business and not concern yourself with other's life decisions that do not affect you.

Model12Win · March 10, 2017, 12:16 AM

Quote:

I think the best response to the situation is to mind your own business and not concern yourself with other's life decisions that do not affect you.

+1

raimius · March 10, 2017, 11:34 AM

Are you sure they were stocks and not pistol braces? They appear quite similar sometimes.

Ocraknife · March 10, 2017, 02:13 PM

Quote:

I think the best response to the situation is to mind your own business and not concern yourself with other's life decisions that do not affect you.

Yep

Dave P · March 10, 2017, 02:33 PM

I want to get one of these pistols:

And yes, pls MYOB.

smee78 · March 10, 2017, 04:37 PM

In this case I would of minded my own business, he could of been a under cover agent who knows? I have learned to keep my nose out of others business in cases like this, you cant fix stupid.

Theohazard · March 11, 2017, 11:22 PM

It happens fairly often at the gun shop/range where I work. People buy a short upper and slap it on their rifle-configured lower and don't realize they just committed a felony. And in that case it very much is our business, we don't want people commiting blatant felonies on our property.

I once had a guy try to check in an SBR for some gunsmithing work and when I asked for a copy of his Form 4 he just gave me a blank look. The funny thing is that he knew about the NFA process because he had picked up a silencer recently, but apparently he didn't know about SBRs.

He claimed he bought the SBR from Troy and they sent it to his house, he kept claiming it was legal since he bought it like that. I noticed that the upper was Troy but the lower was Aero, and so I told him that it was legal to purchase the upper and have it sent to your house, but putting it on that lower was a felony. He kept arguing that it wasn't illegal since he bought all the parts legally. I kept politely asking him to take the illegal SBR out of our store, and he kept arguing with me about it. Finally, I raised my voice a little, told him he was in possession of an illegal SBR which is a federal felony, and told him if he didn't remove it from my store right now I'd be forced to call the police and notify the ATF. It got all quiet, and all the nearby customers looked at the guy. He finally got the hint and took it out of the store.

I didn't feel proud of calling him out like that and threatening him, but that was the only way I could think of to get it through his head that I needed him to take his illegal SBR out of my store. That was a first for me: Every other time I've had a customer unknowingly bring an illegal NFA item into the store (usually a sub-26" AR pistol with a VFG), I quietly tell them about it, and they quickly take it to their car and take it apart. They always appreciate that I'm the one who noticed it and told them as opposed to a hostile police officer. I've never had anyone argue with me like that guy did.

random guy · March 12, 2017, 10:17 AM

Quote:

In this case I would of minded my own business, he could of been a under cover agent who knows? I have learned to keep my nose out of others business in cases like this, you cant fix stupid.

He may well have been an agent. What's he going to do? Arrest you for telling him that he is probably committing a felony? Now... I would not take such a suspected illegal weapon in my hands for any reason.

And I would not discuss the issue if the owner were a wannabe hardboy or meth-billy. But by the description this owner was just a normal family guy who was under a misconception (possibly willfully as was the gunshop customer above).

Stupid actually can be fixed...with knowledge. Willful ignorance will be much harder to cure, usually requiring imminent consequences. That is someone else's job.

Either way, I would not push the issue but would kindly say something in this case. A word to the wise is sufficient. I respect that others here would not want to involve themselves at all.

g.willikers · March 12, 2017, 11:09 AM

There seems to be an abundance of folks out there without any knowledge of the laws.
I was in a local store awhile back and a guy comes in, with his girlfriend in tow, to buy a "sawed off shotgun" (his exact words).
He hadn't even a notion of a clue about why the store owner refused his request, even after being told the facts of life in great detail.
No doubt he saw one being used in a movie or tv show and decided he wanted one.

GE-Minigun · March 13, 2017, 12:40 PM

CNC warrior makes a folding arm brace...just saying.

AirForceShooter · March 14, 2017, 06:19 AM

If he offers to let you shoot it just say "no thanks"

AFS

TXAZ · March 14, 2017, 07:55 AM

DaveP
Try one before you buy it. I've had one, balance is terrible and the short barrel doesn't help accuracy. At night the flash is cool if you are away but is blinding if shooting it.

Dave P · March 14, 2017, 09:15 AM

" At night the flash is cool if you are away but is blinding if shooting it."

Roger that! My friend has one, and it is fun to shoot sometimes.

If it were mine, I would make some custom handloads for it, to minimize the flash.

zincwarrior · March 14, 2017, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Are you sure they were stocks and not pistol braces? They appear quite similar sometimes.

IIRC but a pistol brace used as a stock without the relevant stamps is illegal. I could be wrong as I don't own a Mattel Gun of any sort.*

*Mainly because I'm cheap and my eyesight limits any shooting over 25m to requiring glass sufficient to see any low orbiting satellites.

shafter · March 14, 2017, 04:17 PM

The MYOB principle is definitely a good principle to live by. If I see someone shooting an SBR at the range I'm going to mind my own business and presume he has the required paperwork.

However, if we're shooting next to each other and get to talking and it comes up that he doesn't seem to know the legal requirements, I'll probably give him a heads up as non confrontationally as possible. If he doesn't want to hear it then I walk away.

raimius · March 14, 2017, 08:23 PM

Yes, the latest known ATF interpretation is that shouldering a pistol brace "redesigns" the firearm into a rifle.
...So, it is a legal pistol, as long as you don't hold it the wrong way...

fl_rich · March 16, 2017, 07:03 PM

There is a letter out from the ATF that states that using a pistol brace at the shoulder does not make it an SBR its just using it wrong.

I don't have a link but if provoked I could probably produce it

I also don't have the applicable pistol. If i did I'd be damn sure I wasn't taking some Internet guys word for it

MadDawg · March 16, 2017, 08:37 PM

If shouldering a pistol with a brace redesigns it into a SBR, then does removing it from the shoulder then redesign it back into a pistol ? If it's then a pistol, how can the ATF confiscate it as an illegal SBR when it's really just a pistol ? Looking at it on an evidence table- would reveal that it's indeed just merely a pistol, and not a SBR like the ATF wants to infer that it is..
Additionally, an AR pistol with a brace- is illegal to shoulder; but an AR pistol with a pistol buffer tube is OK to shoulder .. Hmm???

The whole redesign thing is stupid. And what's worse, the ATF knows it. It's as stupid as the ATF agent that confiscated a bunch of air soft pistols claiming that they could be turned into fully automatic firearms..

Here's another example of the bureaucratic wisdom of the ATF. According to them, a pistol is designed to be shot with one hand. A rifle is designed to use two hands. From there, it's illegal to put a forward vertical grip on a pistol..

Most people I know shoot their semi-auto pistols, like a typical glock pistol- with both hands. Did they turn their pistol into a short barreled rifle because they used two hands to hold it ? Is firing a rifle, outstretched, with a single hand- redesigning a rifle into a pistol (which is by definition illegal )?

While a vertical foregrip is illegal to add to a pistol, an angled foregrip is OK to add. Hmm.. Isn't an angled foregrip meant to use the second hand on a pistol ? Why the stupid ruling ?

There is no way that the folks at the ATF cannot know how stupid the stuff that they "rule on" sounds in real life. What really should happen is that anyone arrested for the stupid rules-well, they should demand a jury of their peers, and the jurors should find them innocent by Jury Nullification. If I ever were to sit on such a jury, I'd vote in favor of innocent by Jury Nullification..

Double Naught Spy · March 16, 2017, 08:53 PM

Quote:

There is a letter out from the ATF that states that using a pistol brace at the shoulder does not make it an SBR its just using it wrong.

Unless this is new, no such letter exists and the old rule is still in effect. There is a white paper out saying what you said, but no mention that the ATF has changed their actual position on using such stocks. The same white paper was in favor of removing the tax stamp encumbrance from suppressors.

Can you produce this letter?

raimius · March 18, 2017, 04:35 PM

FL Rich, the ATF reversed their original opinion on braces. First they said it was based on design, not how you hold it...Then, they said holding it wrong "redesigns" it.

March 9, 2017, 06:23 PM	#1
Ocraknife Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2002 Location: Nashville Posts: 1,117	a guy at the range was shooting illegal SBRs I was at a public range today - a Tennessee Wildlife Resource Agency range. This particular range doesn't have a range officer so sometimes people will do some interesting things there. Anyway, this nice man and what looked to be his family took a spot next to me and they started shooting. I noticed he had two gas operated pistols, one was basically an AR variant and the other was an AK; both had collapsible stocks on both of them. I complemented him on his SBRs and he said, oh, I didn't file any papers or anything - they're still just pistols. I didn't really know what to say. He knew a lot about guns and had some beautiful M1s with him, he knew he needed an NFA stamp to legally use those guns as rifles - which he did. I was just surprised that someone would be that cavalier about it. Anyway, I thought thought I'd share my range experience. __________________ "The loudest sound you'll ever hear is a "bang" when you weren't expecting one." -Jimro

March 9, 2017, 07:49 PM	#3
GarandTd Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2016 Location: Rural PA Posts: 1,639	There are AK style pistols available these days. Slap on a folding stock and....Presto! SBR. __________________ 22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp

March 9, 2017, 09:44 PM	#6
NateKirk Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2013 Location: Detroit Posts: 435	I think the best response to the situation is to mind your own business and not concern yourself with other's life decisions that do not affect you. __________________ “Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".” ― --Thomas Jefferson

March 10, 2017, 02:33 PM	#10
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: North Florida Posts: 1,346	I want to get one of these pistols: And yes, pls MYOB. __________________ I think this country is screwed.

March 10, 2017, 04:37 PM	#11
smee78 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 2,918	In this case I would of minded my own business, he could of been a under cover agent who knows? I have learned to keep my nose out of others business in cases like this, you cant fix stupid. __________________ We know exactly where one cow with Mad-cow-disease is located, among the millions and millions of cows in America, but we haven't got a clue where thousands of illegal immigrants and terrorists are

March 9, 2017, 06:43 PM	#2
random guy Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2017 Posts: 272	On the off chance that he was under some misconception, I'd have felt compelled to (in the friendliest possible terms) reinforce the status of these guns and the severe penalties if he runs across the wrong people while in possession of them. This is not the place to test the limits, much less blithely drive your monster truck through them while blasting "Detroit Rock City" on the stereo. I wonder how the guns came to be as they are. An AR can easily become an SBR but an AK would seem to take more work.

March 9, 2017, 08:39 PM	#4
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"I noticed he had two gas operated pistols, one was basically an AR variant and the other was an AK; both had collapsible stocks on both of them." An AR with a "KAK or SIG stock" looks very much like an SBR but is a fully legal "pistol"(as long as you don't fire it with the back end of the forearm support touching your shoulder).

March 10, 2017, 11:34 AM	#8
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Are you sure they were stocks and not pistol braces? They appear quite similar sometimes.

March 11, 2017, 11:22 PM	#12
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	It happens fairly often at the gun shop/range where I work. People buy a short upper and slap it on their rifle-configured lower and don't realize they just committed a felony. And in that case it very much is our business, we don't want people commiting blatant felonies on our property. I once had a guy try to check in an SBR for some gunsmithing work and when I asked for a copy of his Form 4 he just gave me a blank look. The funny thing is that he knew about the NFA process because he had picked up a silencer recently, but apparently he didn't know about SBRs. He claimed he bought the SBR from Troy and they sent it to his house, he kept claiming it was legal since he bought it like that. I noticed that the upper was Troy but the lower was Aero, and so I told him that it was legal to purchase the upper and have it sent to your house, but putting it on that lower was a felony. He kept arguing that it wasn't illegal since he bought all the parts legally. I kept politely asking him to take the illegal SBR out of our store, and he kept arguing with me about it. Finally, I raised my voice a little, told him he was in possession of an illegal SBR which is a federal felony, and told him if he didn't remove it from my store right now I'd be forced to call the police and notify the ATF. It got all quiet, and all the nearby customers looked at the guy. He finally got the hint and took it out of the store. I didn't feel proud of calling him out like that and threatening him, but that was the only way I could think of to get it through his head that I needed him to take his illegal SBR out of my store. That was a first for me: Every other time I've had a customer unknowingly bring an illegal NFA item into the store (usually a sub-26" AR pistol with a VFG), I quietly tell them about it, and they quickly take it to their car and take it apart. They always appreciate that I'm the one who noticed it and told them as opposed to a hostile police officer. I've never had anyone argue with me like that guy did. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

March 12, 2017, 11:09 AM	#14
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	There seems to be an abundance of folks out there without any knowledge of the laws. I was in a local store awhile back and a guy comes in, with his girlfriend in tow, to buy a "sawed off shotgun" (his exact words). He hadn't even a notion of a clue about why the store owner refused his request, even after being told the facts of life in great detail. No doubt he saw one being used in a movie or tv show and decided he wanted one. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

March 13, 2017, 12:40 PM	#15
GE-Minigun Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2008 Posts: 240	CNC warrior makes a folding arm brace...just saying.

March 14, 2017, 06:19 AM	#16
AirForceShooter Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Location: Sarasota (sort of) Florida Posts: 1,296	If he offers to let you shoot it just say "no thanks" AFS __________________ 'Qui tacet consentit': To remain silent is to consent.

March 14, 2017, 07:55 AM	#17
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	DaveP Try one before you buy it. I've had one, balance is terrible and the short barrel doesn't help accuracy. At night the flash is cool if you are away but is blinding if shooting it. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

March 14, 2017, 09:15 AM	#18
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: North Florida Posts: 1,346	" At night the flash is cool if you are away but is blinding if shooting it." Roger that! My friend has one, and it is fun to shoot sometimes. If it were mine, I would make some custom handloads for it, to minimize the flash. __________________ I think this country is screwed.

March 14, 2017, 04:17 PM	#20
shafter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Posts: 1,624	The MYOB principle is definitely a good principle to live by. If I see someone shooting an SBR at the range I'm going to mind my own business and presume he has the required paperwork. However, if we're shooting next to each other and get to talking and it comes up that he doesn't seem to know the legal requirements, I'll probably give him a heads up as non confrontationally as possible. If he doesn't want to hear it then I walk away.

March 14, 2017, 08:23 PM	#21
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Yes, the latest known ATF interpretation is that shouldering a pistol brace "redesigns" the firearm into a rifle. ...So, it is a legal pistol, as long as you don't hold it the wrong way...

March 16, 2017, 07:03 PM	#22
fl_rich Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2015 Posts: 103	There is a letter out from the ATF that states that using a pistol brace at the shoulder does not make it an SBR its just using it wrong. I don't have a link but if provoked I could probably produce it I also don't have the applicable pistol. If i did I'd be damn sure I wasn't taking some Internet guys word for it

March 16, 2017, 08:37 PM	#23
MadDawg Member Join Date: December 27, 2014 Posts: 51	If shouldering a pistol with a brace redesigns it into a SBR, then does removing it from the shoulder then redesign it back into a pistol ? If it's then a pistol, how can the ATF confiscate it as an illegal SBR when it's really just a pistol ? Looking at it on an evidence table- would reveal that it's indeed just merely a pistol, and not a SBR like the ATF wants to infer that it is.. Additionally, an AR pistol with a brace- is illegal to shoulder; but an AR pistol with a pistol buffer tube is OK to shoulder .. Hmm??? The whole redesign thing is stupid. And what's worse, the ATF knows it. It's as stupid as the ATF agent that confiscated a bunch of air soft pistols claiming that they could be turned into fully automatic firearms.. Here's another example of the bureaucratic wisdom of the ATF. According to them, a pistol is designed to be shot with one hand. A rifle is designed to use two hands. From there, it's illegal to put a forward vertical grip on a pistol.. Most people I know shoot their semi-auto pistols, like a typical glock pistol- with both hands. Did they turn their pistol into a short barreled rifle because they used two hands to hold it ? Is firing a rifle, outstretched, with a single hand- redesigning a rifle into a pistol (which is by definition illegal )? While a vertical foregrip is illegal to add to a pistol, an angled foregrip is OK to add. Hmm.. Isn't an angled foregrip meant to use the second hand on a pistol ? Why the stupid ruling ? There is no way that the folks at the ATF cannot know how stupid the stuff that they "rule on" sounds in real life. What really should happen is that anyone arrested for the stupid rules-well, they should demand a jury of their peers, and the jurors should find them innocent by Jury Nullification. If I ever were to sit on such a jury, I'd vote in favor of innocent by Jury Nullification..

March 18, 2017, 04:35 PM	#25
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	FL Rich, the ATF reversed their original opinion on braces. First they said it was based on design, not how you hold it...Then, they said holding it wrong "redesigns" it.