Thinking about the trust route..

Tommygun1 · January 16, 2009, 06:39 PM

I hope someone can give me some clear answers. I would like to go the quicken willmaker route on a Yankee Hill cobra M2 for a .45. When you set up the trust, you can can add people who may legally possess your can correct? This would mean you dont need to be present? My question is can I keep the can at my sisters home locked in a safe if she is on the trust? I still live at home and I cant keep it here because my father has felony..tax deal a while back, nothing to do with guns or violence, but nontheless. I have a safety deposite box where I would keep the original stamp, should I keep it there? Has anyone ever been in a similar situation? This really sucks. I tried one out at the dealer's today. It was great, but I want to do this right.

mskdgunman · January 16, 2009, 07:12 PM

What State are you in? The reason I ask is that if you are in FL, I found an attorney's office that offers to do the trust paperwork for $195 out the door. They seem to know the ins and outs and have contacts with ATF. Let me know and I'll post the link if it'll help. I'm considering going the same way but haven't made up my mind yet

Tommygun1 · January 16, 2009, 11:13 PM

I live in Wisconsin. I understand that most guys are going with the trust. It seems that the local CLEO in the county of the gun shop wont sign off. Is there anything wrong with this method? I havent heard of any complaints, but I sure dont want to get into something over my head and have them come back on me and say something wasn't correct. I would assume that the BATF would make sure that everything was good before they approved the tax stamp, but I don't want to assume to much. I guess guys have been waiting 12-14 weeks, but they are selling well. Is the quicken method to good to be true, or is it going to be something that bites us in the butt down the road? I sure hope not. I really don't personally know anyone with NFA items so I'm kind of by myself.

Tommygun1 · January 24, 2009, 01:28 PM

actually turn out a guy at work has an mg. I guess he did a form 4 in the 80's but wasnt familiar with the trusts.

tvoss265 · January 24, 2009, 10:57 PM

Please post the link. I'm in central Florida, and I've been thinking about going the Trust route.

Bartholomew Roberts · January 25, 2009, 06:22 AM

The penalties for screwing up NFA paperwork can be pretty severe and range from federal felony and prison time to substantial fines and loss of your NFA item. Add on top of that unique situation like yours (living with a convicted felon) and I've got to question just how much money you are saving by using Quicken Willmaker to do a trust.

Likely, you can find an attorney who can help you set up a nice, legal NFA trust as well as answer these questions for you. Form legal documents are great as long as you understand what they do; but legal documents have consequences and responsibilities with them - if all you understand about Quicken Willmaker is that it lets you own a suppressor, you will probably be OK; but what about the other parts of that document and what they mean for you?

To give one example, a person cannot be a trustee, grantor and beneficiary of a trust. In many states, being all three of these will invalidate the trust. If you have created an invalid form trust, what happens when the ATF discovers that the entity that holds an NFA item can't legally exist? If you appoint someone else to the trust, what role will they serve? Typically since you create the trust and put the NFA item in it, you will always be the Grantor. That means the third party must be either the trustee (the person who controls and manages the item for the sake of the beneficiary) or the beneficiary (the person who receives the item when the trust expires). A trustee has a legal duty to manage the trust assets for the beneficiary. If you burn up the blast baffle in your suppressor by doing a lot of rapid-fire mag dumps, have you created a legal cause of action for your beneficiary to sue you?

A few hundred dollars for a lawyer may sound expensive up front; but start pricing out lawyers AFTER you have been served/arrested and I guarantee you that it won't seem near as bad by comparison.

Tommygun1 · January 27, 2009, 10:37 PM

I don't intend to screw up any part of this paperwork. There is nothing worth losing your life and freedom over. I work at a prison, and I've seen some of the stupid things people that put those people where they are. I just want to know what the best method is to go about the whole thing. I guess the CLEO sign off would be best, but if that were not an option the only thing left would be the trust right? I guess 75% of the people purchasing these at my area class 3 are doing it on quicken willmaker trusts. I would obviously be the the one with control over the can, but that comes to my other problem.. Can my sister or close friend keep the can at their residence if they are on my trust? I mean one would think so if they were the one to take control of it in the event of my death right? Is there an ATF hotline that I can call to ask these types of questions? I have asked the dealer about the trusts and they seem to to think they work great, but I'm sure they don't really care what happens once they aren' t liable for it anymore. Like I said I want to do it the right way. I can always say screw it until I get my own place, but it would be nice to get one now. Who knows what the future may bring.

Bartholomew Roberts · January 28, 2009, 11:39 AM

If you ask ATF any question, you need to get the answer in writing. Answers over the phone won't save you from jail and would be difficult to prove in court in any case - not to mention that I have asked three different ATF agents from three different offices the same legal question and received three different and conflicting answers.

Gun Trust Lawyer · February 17, 2009, 09:35 PM

Title II firearms must be stored at the location listed on the Form 1 or Form 4. If they are stored somewhere else you must update the ATF using a form 20. See http://www.GunTrustLawyer.com/form20.html for a sample form 20 as well as instructions.

January 16, 2009, 06:39 PM	#1
Tommygun1 Member Join Date: June 20, 2008 Posts: 27	Thinking about the trust route.. I hope someone can give me some clear answers. I would like to go the quicken willmaker route on a Yankee Hill cobra M2 for a .45. When you set up the trust, you can can add people who may legally possess your can correct? This would mean you dont need to be present? My question is can I keep the can at my sisters home locked in a safe if she is on the trust? I still live at home and I cant keep it here because my father has felony..tax deal a while back, nothing to do with guns or violence, but nontheless. I have a safety deposite box where I would keep the original stamp, should I keep it there? Has anyone ever been in a similar situation? This really sucks. I tried one out at the dealer's today. It was great, but I want to do this right.

January 25, 2009, 06:22 AM	#6
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	The penalties for screwing up NFA paperwork can be pretty severe and range from federal felony and prison time to substantial fines and loss of your NFA item. Add on top of that unique situation like yours (living with a convicted felon) and I've got to question just how much money you are saving by using Quicken Willmaker to do a trust. Likely, you can find an attorney who can help you set up a nice, legal NFA trust as well as answer these questions for you. Form legal documents are great as long as you understand what they do; but legal documents have consequences and responsibilities with them - if all you understand about Quicken Willmaker is that it lets you own a suppressor, you will probably be OK; but what about the other parts of that document and what they mean for you? To give one example, a person cannot be a trustee, grantor and beneficiary of a trust. In many states, being all three of these will invalidate the trust. If you have created an invalid form trust, what happens when the ATF discovers that the entity that holds an NFA item can't legally exist? If you appoint someone else to the trust, what role will they serve? Typically since you create the trust and put the NFA item in it, you will always be the Grantor. That means the third party must be either the trustee (the person who controls and manages the item for the sake of the beneficiary) or the beneficiary (the person who receives the item when the trust expires). A trustee has a legal duty to manage the trust assets for the beneficiary. If you burn up the blast baffle in your suppressor by doing a lot of rapid-fire mag dumps, have you created a legal cause of action for your beneficiary to sue you? A few hundred dollars for a lawyer may sound expensive up front; but start pricing out lawyers AFTER you have been served/arrested and I guarantee you that it won't seem near as bad by comparison. Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; January 25, 2009 at 06:28 AM.

February 17, 2009, 09:35 PM	#9
Gun Trust Lawyer Junior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 11	ATF and storage of Title II firearms Title II firearms must be stored at the location listed on the Form 1 or Form 4. If they are stored somewhere else you must update the ATF using a form 20. See http://www.GunTrustLawyer.com/form20.html for a sample form 20 as well as instructions. __________________ David Goldman , Esquire - Apple Law Firm, PLLC Tel (904) 685-1200 http://www.GunTrustLawyer.com/

January 16, 2009, 07:12 PM	#2
mskdgunman Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2008 Posts: 127	What State are you in? The reason I ask is that if you are in FL, I found an attorney's office that offers to do the trust paperwork for $195 out the door. They seem to know the ins and outs and have contacts with ATF. Let me know and I'll post the link if it'll help. I'm considering going the same way but haven't made up my mind yet

January 16, 2009, 11:13 PM	#3
Tommygun1 Member Join Date: June 20, 2008 Posts: 27	I live in Wisconsin. I understand that most guys are going with the trust. It seems that the local CLEO in the county of the gun shop wont sign off. Is there anything wrong with this method? I havent heard of any complaints, but I sure dont want to get into something over my head and have them come back on me and say something wasn't correct. I would assume that the BATF would make sure that everything was good before they approved the tax stamp, but I don't want to assume to much. I guess guys have been waiting 12-14 weeks, but they are selling well. Is the quicken method to good to be true, or is it going to be something that bites us in the butt down the road? I sure hope not. I really don't personally know anyone with NFA items so I'm kind of by myself.

January 24, 2009, 01:28 PM	#4
Tommygun1 Member Join Date: June 20, 2008 Posts: 27	actually turn out a guy at work has an mg. I guess he did a form 4 in the 80's but wasnt familiar with the trusts.

January 24, 2009, 10:57 PM	#5
tvoss265 Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2009 Posts: 1	Please post the link. I'm in central Florida, and I've been thinking about going the Trust route.

January 27, 2009, 10:37 PM	#7
Tommygun1 Member Join Date: June 20, 2008 Posts: 27	I don't intend to screw up any part of this paperwork. There is nothing worth losing your life and freedom over. I work at a prison, and I've seen some of the stupid things people that put those people where they are. I just want to know what the best method is to go about the whole thing. I guess the CLEO sign off would be best, but if that were not an option the only thing left would be the trust right? I guess 75% of the people purchasing these at my area class 3 are doing it on quicken willmaker trusts. I would obviously be the the one with control over the can, but that comes to my other problem.. Can my sister or close friend keep the can at their residence if they are on my trust? I mean one would think so if they were the one to take control of it in the event of my death right? Is there an ATF hotline that I can call to ask these types of questions? I have asked the dealer about the trusts and they seem to to think they work great, but I'm sure they don't really care what happens once they aren' t liable for it anymore. Like I said I want to do it the right way. I can always say screw it until I get my own place, but it would be nice to get one now. Who knows what the future may bring.

January 28, 2009, 11:39 AM	#8
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	If you ask ATF any question, you need to get the answer in writing. Answers over the phone won't save you from jail and would be difficult to prove in court in any case - not to mention that I have asked three different ATF agents from three different offices the same legal question and received three different and conflicting answers.