The Sound of the Shotgun

[jhenry]

The ONLY thing that can be counted on to stop someone intent on doing you serious bodily harm is enough structural damage or blood loss to shut them down. That being said please understand that folks are certainly persuaded to run or at least stop with some regularity by certain sounds or sights. ie: someone yelling they have a gun, the sound of a shotgun racking etc. etc. BUT, when in defense of your family or person you need to consider the worst case scenario not the best case scenario.

Worst case is an amped up evildoer with no soul or pesky conscience to get in the way who would actually enjoy torturing and raping your family before your eyes and cutting their throats. If he/they are amped up enough they are not going to be disuaded by you protests, yelling, ammunition without lead in it, or even non fatal wounds.

I would rather not shoot folks which is why (depending on the particular circumstances) I have a voice to yell with if that is a viable option, OC to use if that is a viable option, a big dog who is in at night, and firearms of a major caliber that are loaded with real ammunition.

[Axion]

let's not futz around in emergency situations.

My thoughts exactly. If I ever have a gun trained on someone it's going to be because I'm in fear for my life (or a loved ones' life). At that point in time there is no time for games.

[SpiritWalker]

revjen45: The only sound coming from my shotgun before commencing fire will be the click of the safety going to "off."

Hear! Hear! and AMEN!

[cloudcroft]

njtrigger,

You're right -- but even a handgun will be LOUD indoors -- that's why I have these to put on at night if I suspect I have boarders...and need to repel same:

http://www.pro-ears.com/

I have the Pro Ears "Dimension 1" Pro Mag model...it's right next to my shorty Mossberg 500 near my bed!

-- John D,

[Mueller]

A warning shot in my opinion is the one with the full load of buckshot or slug, personally addressed to the BG, in my home, who's unauthorized presence, since obviously he had to break in, gives me reasonable concern to be in fear for my life.

If it has proceeded to that point (shooting) after demanding that he/they leave and the police have been called, then I feel sufficient warning has been provided under the law and they obviously, have a much more serious intent than a simple burglary, because if the presence of a homeowner claiming to have a gun and to have called the police, is not enough to make them leave, then you are finished talking and anything except the judicious application of lethal force is a waste of valuable time.

Scare shells and screamers are only intended for use in single shot shotguns, manufacturer's recommendation, since they have been known to have only the primer go off and kick the banger partially out of the shell and jam in the forcing cone area or be lodged in the barrel. I have even seen a fired bang shell ejected from a remington 870 and leave the plastic body in place , with the next round getting rammed into the chamber, completely tying up the gun, what fun that was, trying to remove a live cartridge that had a pyrotechnic component. They can also start fires.

Nope, in my opinion in this situation, a firearm has one purpose and it isn't to warn someone.

[JohnKSa]

Having fired a gun indoors once without hearing protection, I'm not eager to do it again.

I certainly wouldn't do it if I couldn't see the person. I don't fancy the idea of making myself temporarily deaf with an intruder whose whereabouts in the house I don't know.

[G-Cym]

The sound of a shotgun may be scary to some, but not all. If you're going to pull a weapon on someone, you better be able to go all the way. Dummy rounds seems like a pretty bad idea. You may need to fire that first shot at somebody, and if it's not a real round, than you're screwed. You may as well have an Airsoft gun if you're not ready to put rounds downrange at the enemy when you need to.

[Maser]

With all due respect and not meaning to offend anyone here who has actually had to USE their HD shotgun on a BG breaking into their house, it really bothers me to hear some of the members here basicly saying "shoot first ask questions later". In all self defense shooting articles I have read it basicly says to only use deadly force as a LAST resort. I am not saying that lethal force should not be used if the BG is not complying or is still posing a lethal threat to you or your family. I just feel you need to use proper judgement in an HD situation. I understand that it's easy for me to sit here and say all this having never been in an HD situation and that things are a lot different in the heat of the moment, but I feel that if you catch a BG in your house and are able to get your shotgun and have it cocked and loaded and give out strong commands at a reasonable distance, then you have control of the situation and unless the BG is on drugs or a complete nut job then he should realize that and not want to continue his malicious act and face a 12 gauge blast at close range.

Now as far as the sound of a 12 gauge muzzle report goes, to me all big guns pretty much sound the same. The only time I even came remotly close to shooting my 12 gauge indoors was this one time when a possum was in the back yard and it was too dark for the open sites on my 10/22. No, at the time I didn't have the flashlight mounted on it. So I got my shotgun and I didn't want to open the door and scare it away so I pointed the shotgun out the window and had the muzzle about 1-2 inches out the window and fired. WOW!! It echoed so much into my house. Never do that again. I didn't get in trouble from my parents though because we raise rabbits and the possums like to steal their food and at times try to kill the new born pups. The possum is one animal I would not mind becoming extinct. I freaking hate them ugly giant white rats.

[AndrewD]

ANyone who is gung ho about home defense with firearms most likely does so out of a desire to protect their family. I would urge the same people to project the financial and emotional damage that the family will sustain after they kill or wound a home intruder who did not present a threat to someone. You will at least be sued civilly, and possibly go to jail, regardless of what you think is right or wrong.

I have nothing against defending the home and family with deadly force, if necessary, and I would do so in a heart beat. But you cannot just shoot anyone who breaks into your house. They have to be presenting a threat of death or great bodily injury to someone to justify deadly force.

That being said, I wouldn't cripple your HD shotgun by loading a blank as the first round. Can you guarantee that you will get more than one shot in a life or death situation? I wouldn't bet lives on it.

[cloudcroft]

If the intruders are dead, it's only your story what happened, not yours AND the intruders' stories.

Besides, ANY intruder inside your house IS a threat. Period.

Don't make it complicated with all the soul-searching and angst...criminals sure don't.

-- John D.

[AndrewD]

An intruder running away from you is not a threat. An intruder who entered your house completely intoxicated thinking it was their house and passed out on the floor is not a threat. You would kill these hypothetical people? If you did, you would probably end up in jail, and rightfully so.

As far as soul-searching and angst, I don't see much of that in my post. If you can find some, please point it out.

There is a sticky at the top of this forum :
The pendulm (and scythe) are swinging . If you haven't read it, you should.

[JohnKSa]

If the intruders are dead, it's only your story what happened, not yours AND the intruders' stories.

There's also the forensics story as well...

It's probably not wise to suggest on a public forum that you would (or that others should) shoot someone merely for breaking into a house.

I do agree that someone who breaks into your house should be treated as a threat, but that doesn't mean one should (nor should advocate that the homeowner should) automatically perforate him on sight. There are levels of threat and those levels determine how a person can legally respond to that threat.

[cloudcroft]

You guys are dreaming...get with the real world.

AndrewD,

An intruder in my house is a threat. Feel free to define your OWN situation, but not mine.

If you can't see the angst, please learn more about yourself...I don't have the time nor inclination to educate you...that's your mission, should you choose to accept it. Besides, I'm retired now...got to have time to do lots of retired things such as deciding which coffeeshop to go to today (Dennys, Village Inn, IHOP, Starbucks, Bad Ass Coffee, etc.) and where to go cruising with my v-twin cruiser MC. That's much more pressing at the moment...sorry.

But good luck to you anyway.


JohnKSa,

True, but don't worry...the forensics will match the story. This is Texas...the mentality is sometimes different here. I know mine is.

As for what to say or not say, I'm just "keeping it real" (if I may indulge in some ebonics for a moment) here. Also, having been a criminal once myself, I speak their language, which is very helpful. So I look at things as they do...simple and with extreme violence. Also having been a combat vet, I see it as a personal war, one-on-one. Works for me.

But you guys go on with all the "deep thoughts." Please say "Hello" for me to Jack Handy when you see him.

Regards,

-- John D.

[JohnKSa]

So I look at things as they do...simple and with extreme violence. Also having been a combat vet, I see it as a personal war, one-on-one. Works for me.

Unfortunately you don't get to be the final word. It will also have to "work for" the courts.

There is not anything in Texas law (I live in TX too. ) that allows you to use deadly force simply because someone has illegally entered your house. You must reasonably believe that using deadly force is the only option for ending the situation and further reasonably believe that if you do not immediately use deadly force your life will be endangered.

Don't make it complicated with all the soul-searching and angst...criminals sure don't.

The law acknowledges your right to protect your life and the lives of your family. It doesn't give you the right to shoot anyone who illegally enters your house. It doesn't give you the right to declare a "personal war" or to indiscriminately use "extreme violence" on "ANY intruder inside your house" nor does it give you the ability to do what "works for you" with impunity.

It's not complicated, but it's not as simple as shoot "ANY intruder inside your house" either.

If you wish to declare that this is how you will handle this type of situation, that's your prerogative. Recommending that others do the same and/or excoriating them for saying that they will not is a different story.

[AndrewD]

Cloudcroft, please tone it down a bit. There is no angst in my post. I was only presenting my opinion that is backed by law enforcement professionals in my area who taught these things to me. If you use deadly force against someone who is not a threat, you should count on facing legal trouble, criminal and civil. Once you take that action, there are consequences, regardless of whether you feel you were justified or not. That's all. If that's what comprises soul-searching angst and new age deep thoughts, there is a retired Captain in the US Park Police, an NPS ranger on his twentieth year of that career after retiring as a 20 year veteran of the Park Police, a Lieutenant with the local SO, and many other LEO's who instruct at an academy that handles the LE training for a large piece of this state who really fooled me. I think I'll take their word over yours.

[sanson]

my dad is a (lifetime)FL cop. here you must prove your life was in danger before deadly force. being really scared or angry is NOT enough. on the other hand, cops usually KNOW who the bad guy is. but the prosecuter needs to charge somebody. he feels the judge will sort things out. personally I hate courtrooms and yes if I can't scare somebody out of my house(pumping a shotgun or cycling an autopistol) I see no choice but to fire.(to kill) JUST MY WORTHLESS OPINION SO DON'T START SCREAMING AT ME

[LICCW]

There is something else, what if the assailant is on drugs? He may not even notice a warning shot if he's some skell all freaked out on some crazy stuff. I have to agree with those who have posted the opinion that don't bother with a firearm if you do not want to even consider the use of deadly force.

[Mark B]

In my case the sound of rackiing the slide wouldn't make much difference anyway. The only thing anyboby would be able to hear is my dog barking/BG screaming

[cloudcroft]

You two guys...

Good luck,

-- John D.

[wayneinFL]

"my dad is a (lifetime)FL cop. here you must prove your life was in danger before deadly force. being really scared or angry is NOT enough."

You don't have to prove your life was in danger. You have to prove you reasonably believed your life was in danger.

In Lake Worth a few years ago an officer shot a man who was on the roof of his home threatening officers with a pellet gun. The officer was charged with anything. And they shouldn't as long as you "reasonably believe" your life was in danger or that you were in danger of grave bodily harm.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If the bad guy doesn't flee immediately, how many times should you rack your shotgun to scare him?

Cloudcroft - want to put up your legal and/or training credentials to convince us of your views of TX law and tactics?

[2400]

The only sound coming from my shotgun before commencing fire will be the click of the safety going to "off."

+1 If I have to shoot it will be to stop the threat.

[whip1]

A guy I used to work with told me a story about his son. The son was at home, alone in the evening. He heard some yelling outside. When he checks it out, he sees his neighbor/friend is in an arguement with another guy. The son is a bit of a hothead. He decieded to get his fathers shotgun, and help his friend. He runs to the neighbors yard, and racks the slide. Of course this gets everyones attention. The bad guy was about twice the size of the son, and he made some comments about the son being a sissy hiding behind the gun. More words are exchanged, and the son gets very hot! He decides to pull the trigger! Unknown to the son, the gun was empty! The bad guy proceeds to remove the shotgun from the son, beats the son up, and takes the gun. The bad guy tells the neighbor that the gun would make up for the money he owed, and they were even. The worst part was the neighbor had the money, and he was going to pay.The neighbor was upset that the bad guy showed up at work trying to collect, and that is what they were yelling about. Appearently the son got beat up, and lost a gun for nothing!

[revjen45]

This story has 2 lessons:
1) Don't introduce a gun into a situation which has not already degenerated into potentially lethal violence, and
2) Don't stick your face into situations that are none of your business.
One of my son's good friends got sent to jail for pulling a knife in a situation that was none of his business, but he just HAD to br the hero and get involved in an argument over a dog barking at one of his neighbors. He lucked out and got off on a misdemeanor, but now he has a crime of violence on his record.

[cloudcroft]

Glenn E. Meyer,

I told a friend about some of the people in these assorted gun forums.

He said something pretty profound: "Don't wast time talking to the already dead."

So no, I won't.

-- John D.