is this legal?

crazy eyes · April 2, 2008, 11:19 PM

it looks like they are selling these conversion kits online, they look fun, but i value my freedom more, lol.

http://www.geocities.com/shokansunrise/

BabyEagle40 · April 2, 2008, 11:26 PM

link doesnt work for me

**JohnKSa** · April 3, 2008, 12:34 AM

From the link:

Statement:

We often getting questions about legality of that part.

If it´s legal in your Country, you have to ask in your Country !

In the U.S. it is not legal unless you are specially licensed. I don't have any idea about the legality of the part in Germany, where it's made.

jared_2O1O · April 3, 2008, 01:12 AM

It looks foreign.

Even the automatic weapon dealers can only sell automatic weapons (in the US) that were made and registered (as auto weapons) after a certain time (I want to say 1986, but I think it was actually a little later).

As far as glocks are concerned, I don't like modifying anything on the glock. I figure the glocks reliability is probably dependent on the manufacturers specification. I keep the friction affected parts on mine well polished to reduce stacking in the trigger, but i just really don't like changing out the parts.....

JB Books · April 3, 2008, 01:40 AM

I don't think it would be legal. I would stay away from anything like that. If you are interested in a Full Auto/NFA weapon, seek out a reputable dealer. Remember, NFA weapons are more of privilige than a "right," and you should walk the straight and narrow in complying with all appropriate ATF regulations.

shaggy · April 3, 2008, 08:17 AM

No, not legal to possess here in the US and if its coming from another country, its illegal to import sans LE love letter, import permits, ITAR, etc.

James K · April 3, 2008, 08:14 PM

Just send them the money. If the law doesn't let them send the part to you it isn't their fault, so they get to keep the money. Too bad!

The definition of a machinegun in federal law includes any part or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun. In other words, that switch IS a machinegun, in and by itself, regardless of whether it is installed on a pistol. No way is it "legal" to buy, import or own today.

Jim

ssilicon · April 3, 2008, 08:38 PM

How far are we going to allow diluted interpreations of the 2nd? How long before "semi-auto" is said to be more of a privillege than a right? What's after that, calibres beyond .22 are really more of a privillege than a right....

Where does that train stop folks?

crazy eyes · April 4, 2008, 12:39 AM

JB BOOKS, i am not interested in buying or having possesion of it in no way, i like my gun just fine as it is and my freedom too, i just thought it look like an interesting device since it's externally adaptable meaning you can go semi-auto to full auto and vice versa in a flash, nice but no, i will always respect the law.

James K · April 4, 2008, 03:38 PM

Well, Ssilicon,

Now you got that off your chest, what did it prove? If you violate the law, you take the consequences.

Since both Democratic candidates support a renewed AWB, to include all semi-auto firearms, it might be better to register and vote than to rant to us. (Mr. Obama, it is reported, would also press for a total ban, with confiscation, of all semi-autos, all handguns, and all repeating rifles and shotguns.)

Jim

ssilicon · April 4, 2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Well, Ssilicon,

Now you got that off your chest, what did it prove? If you violate the law, you take the consequences.

Since both Democratic candidates support a renewed AWB, to include all semi-auto firearms, it might be better to register and vote than to rant to us. (Mr. Obama, it is reported, would also press for a total ban, with confiscation, of all semi-autos, all handguns, and all repeating rifles and shotguns.)

Jim

Well Jim, I think you basically said in so many words that you don't like what I posted. That's too bad. I plan to do it anyway because last I checked, I don't take my orders from you.

Furthermore Jim, despite your deliberate implication to the contrary, I DO vote and AM registered, but thank you so much anyway for your attempt to discredit my character.

My intention with my post, was to make a point. That point being there is a 2nd ammendment to the COTUS and that more and more laws are passed which dilute and erode this right the 2nd provides.

Nowhere did I say that anyone should disobey the law. Also, conspicuously absent was any statement encourgaing blind obedience either. That maybe is a debate worth having among free men, but is outside the scope of my point. I merely wished to bring awareness that complacency with more and more restrictions may lead us down a path that we do not wish to travel.

Have a good day.

Hkmp5sd · April 4, 2008, 06:09 PM

And don't forget, ATF ruled that a shoestring is also a "machinegun".

ssilicon · April 9, 2008, 07:34 PM

Quote:

And don't forget, ATF ruled that a shoestring is also a "machinegun".

What are you talking about? A shoestring?

Dave85 · April 9, 2008, 08:36 PM

Here's what he's talking about:
The Shoestring Machinegun

I, for one, am sad that it is not legal for purchase here. Not just because I think that full auto should be completely legal (even if it is uselessly applied to a pistol), but because I've always wanted to own something that was "almost handmade."

James K · April 10, 2008, 04:46 PM

First, no one said "a shoestring is a machinegun." They said that a string made up to act as a lightning link, and inserted into an AR-15 in a certain way in combination with certain M16 parts, with the deliberate intent of making the weapon fire full auto is a machinegun under the "part or parts" section of the law. It is a stretch, and might be a tough sell to a jury, but the way the law is written, a shoestring made that way and used that way would be a machinegun. The idea is hardly new - a shoestring is a deadly weapon if it is put around someone's neck with intent to strangle that person. It is not the object, but the way it is intended to be used.

As to the other issue, ssilcon, frankly I get damned tired of people raving about the law being wrong, unconstitutional, unenforceable, etc. I agree that freedom is constantly being eroded, but the last time I checked, neither of us is charged with interpreting the Constitution, so what is the point in a rant? The law is what it is. We can try to change it, but meanwhile what are the alternatives to obeying it? Revolution? Prison? Please lay them out, so we can see whether we like them.

I am glad you register and vote. I am also damned tired of people raving against gun laws, then I find that they have never voted in their lives, never joined a pro-gun organization, never contributed to a pro-gun candidate, never did anything but stand around a gun shop, or on the internet, and rave and rant to those who already agree with them.

People on these forums usually have real questions and want real information. Most of us try to provide what help we can. I fail to see what you are contributing by whining about how the law shouldn't be what it is. I can't see that you provided any help, discussed any issue in a realistic way, or did anything but encourage the idea that any law anyone considers "bad" can be ignored.

Jim

BrunoNorway · April 12, 2008, 04:52 PM

As far as i can see, that construktion would resett the trigger.
And the defenition of a machinegun say that as long as the trigger is resett it is not a machinegun, but a semi-auto fire.
If the shoestring is a machinegun then bump-fire would make us (humans) machinegun also, right?

HKuser · April 13, 2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

As far as i can see, that construktion would resett the trigger.
And the defenition of a machinegun say that as long as the trigger is resett it is not a machinegun, but a semi-auto fire.

Don't think so. If it fires more than once with one pull, it's an MG, watch the video. Norwegian law may vary.

BrunoNorway · April 13, 2008, 12:55 PM

where is the video?

you pull the ring thats conected to the shoestring right? then the rifle fires one round, the semi auto-acktion makes the charging handle, thats connected to the string, to go back, that will relase the presure on the string enabling the trigger to reset, then the charging handle will be pushed forward becouse of the spring, this will put presure on the string and setting of the trigger again, repeting the action...

as you can see the trigger are being reset for each shot...

fell free to tranclate this into american... i know there is alot of mispeling in here but i dont know what the right words are...

i realy dont know the laws in Norway either but i dont think you could be arrested for it, i think both the police and the criminals would make fun of you...

douglasschuckert · April 19, 2008, 08:30 AM

Yes.. This kit is legal in the USA. It is ONLY legal for SOT's, Military, and LEO Units to possess. It turns your Glock into a Post 86 Dealer Sample Machine Gun!

Jim Keenan is correct!

If you own an AR-15 and ANY... ANY AT ALL... of the M16 fire control parts, according to the ATF you ARE IN POSSESSION OF AN ILLEGAL MACHINE GUN...

If you have an ar-15 and you use 1 piece out of an M16 in your lower, you stand to get busted for having a machingun even though it doesn't go full auto... IE using an M16 selector instead of a AR-15 selector, or switching hammers.. yadda yadda yadda...

DO NOT TRY AND MAKE YOUR GUN SHOOT MORE THAN ONE ROUND WITH A PULL OF A TRIGGER!!! ITS ILLEGAL... A DEVICE THAT BUMP-FIRES THE WEAPON FOR YOU IS LEGALLY CONSIDERED A MACHINE GUN!!!

Bill Atkins had his bumpfiring stock reclassified and subsequently banned due to that very fact! google "atkins accelerator"

VUPDblue · April 19, 2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

If you own an AR-15 and ANY... ANY AT ALL... of the M16 fire control parts, according to the ATF you ARE IN POSSESSION OF AN ILLEGAL MACHINE GUN...

Except a M16 carrier...

Nortonics · April 19, 2008, 08:58 AM

Ummm, did Mommy & Daddy forget to teach you not to mess with the idiot on the corner? Gotta' luv the professional web site creation, complete with HS spelling & shady payment options. I'm surprised the site owner didn't provide a unprotected CC payment option right there on the site. Silly furry foreigners...

douglasschuckert · April 19, 2008, 10:23 AM

This is why I specifically said 'lower' :-) But you are correct.... as usual...

You can use a the fullauto bolt/carriers in your Title 1 weapons with out being in violation... BobCat Weapons, the guys that make the kick ass copy of the MP5... they all ship out will full auto bolts and carriers... BobCat tests them on full auto before the ship them out (they remove the sear and FGC beforehand).

VUPDBlue: You should give www.uzitalk.com/forums a shoot. Its a VERY will designed place almost ENTIRELY setup for NFA... Not just Uzi's... Most of the big guys and manufacturers are there too.

James K · April 19, 2008, 11:57 AM

The "shoestring" doesn't operate by pulling any "ring". It is like the "lightning link", and requires an M16 safety and an M16 bolt carrier to operate, but unlike the DIAS does not require an M16 hammer. It is designed to pull the disconnector as the bolt carrier closes, releasing the hammer to fire another round without the operator releasing and pulling the trigger, in other words, full auto fire.

Jim

BrunoNorway · April 19, 2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

The "shoestring" doesn't operate by pulling any "ring". It is like the "lightning link", and requires an M16 safety and an M16 bolt carrier to operate, but unlike the DIAS does not require an M16 hammer. It is designed to pull the disconnector as the bolt carrier closes, releasing the hammer to fire another round without the operator releasing and pulling the trigger, in other words, full auto fire.

I am realy sorry but i still dont get it, i understand that it is more to this pic than we can see and that it takes more than a shoestring to make a m14 fire full auto...

you lost me with "lightning link"

James K · April 19, 2008, 07:30 PM

I may be wrong, but I had understood from what folks have said that the "shoestring" was installed as I mentioned on the AR-15, along with a "paddle".

Edited:

After examining the above picture, I see how the system works, and it does appear to be a reasonably reliable way of gaining rapid fire. I also note the second BATFE letter saying that all shoestrings are not machineguns, for which I thank them.

I think that within the letter and intent of the law, BATFE is probably correct. A string made that way and arranged in that manner would have no other purpose but to convert a semi-auto into a full auto firearm, just like the string substituting for the lightning link. This is especially the case since the shooter does not need to pull the trigger to get a second shot, which is the criteria established in the law.

Like some other "parts", possession would not itself be illegal, but if installed on a rifle that way, it would be.

Here is a link to the "lightning link". It was my earlier understanding that the "string" substituted for the horizontal part of the device; I know other improvised devices have used common items such as paper clips.

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html

Jim

April 2, 2008, 11:19 PM	#1
crazy eyes Member Join Date: March 16, 2008 Posts: 26	is this legal? it looks like they are selling these conversion kits online, they look fun, but i value my freedom more, lol. http://www.geocities.com/shokansunrise/

April 3, 2008, 12:34 AM	#3
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,971	From the link: Statement: We often getting questions about legality of that part. If it´s legal in your Country, you have to ask in your Country ! In the U.S. it is not legal unless you are specially licensed. I don't have any idea about the legality of the part in Germany, where it's made. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

April 3, 2008, 01:12 AM	#4
jared_2O1O Junior Member Join Date: April 3, 2008 Posts: 3	I don't think so It looks foreign. Even the automatic weapon dealers can only sell automatic weapons (in the US) that were made and registered (as auto weapons) after a certain time (I want to say 1986, but I think it was actually a little later). As far as glocks are concerned, I don't like modifying anything on the glock. I figure the glocks reliability is probably dependent on the manufacturers specification. I keep the friction affected parts on mine well polished to reduce stacking in the trigger, but i just really don't like changing out the parts.....

April 9, 2008, 08:36 PM	#14
Dave85 Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,421	Here's what he's talking about: The Shoestring Machinegun I, for one, am sad that it is not legal for purchase here. Not just because I think that full auto should be completely legal (even if it is uselessly applied to a pistol), but because I've always wanted to own something that was "almost handmade." __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --commonly misattributed to, and most likely not, Benjamin Franklin

April 12, 2008, 04:52 PM	#16
BrunoNorway Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: Hedmark, Norway Posts: 380	shoestring As far as i can see, that construktion would resett the trigger. And the defenition of a machinegun say that as long as the trigger is resett it is not a machinegun, but a semi-auto fire. If the shoestring is a machinegun then bump-fire would make us (humans) machinegun also, right? __________________ ☧ IN HOC SIGNO VINCES

April 2, 2008, 11:26 PM	#2
BabyEagle40 Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2008 Posts: 167	link doesnt work for me

April 3, 2008, 01:40 AM	#5
JB Books Junior member Join Date: March 11, 2008 Posts: 125	I don't think it would be legal. I would stay away from anything like that. If you are interested in a Full Auto/NFA weapon, seek out a reputable dealer. Remember, NFA weapons are more of privilige than a "right," and you should walk the straight and narrow in complying with all appropriate ATF regulations.

April 3, 2008, 08:17 AM	#6
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	No, not legal to possess here in the US and if its coming from another country, its illegal to import sans LE love letter, import permits, ITAR, etc.

April 3, 2008, 08:14 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Just send them the money. If the law doesn't let them send the part to you it isn't their fault, so they get to keep the money. Too bad! The definition of a machinegun in federal law includes any part or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun. In other words, that switch IS a machinegun, in and by itself, regardless of whether it is installed on a pistol. No way is it "legal" to buy, import or own today. Jim

April 3, 2008, 08:38 PM	#8
ssilicon Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2005 Posts: 459	How far are we going to allow diluted interpreations of the 2nd? How long before "semi-auto" is said to be more of a privillege than a right? What's after that, calibres beyond .22 are really more of a privillege than a right.... Where does that train stop folks?

April 4, 2008, 12:39 AM	#9
crazy eyes Member Join Date: March 16, 2008 Posts: 26	JB BOOKS, i am not interested in buying or having possesion of it in no way, i like my gun just fine as it is and my freedom too, i just thought it look like an interesting device since it's externally adaptable meaning you can go semi-auto to full auto and vice versa in a flash, nice but no, i will always respect the law.

April 4, 2008, 03:38 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Well, Ssilicon, Now you got that off your chest, what did it prove? If you violate the law, you take the consequences. Since both Democratic candidates support a renewed AWB, to include all semi-auto firearms, it might be better to register and vote than to rant to us. (Mr. Obama, it is reported, would also press for a total ban, with confiscation, of all semi-autos, all handguns, and all repeating rifles and shotguns.) Jim

April 4, 2008, 06:09 PM	#12
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	And don't forget, ATF ruled that a shoestring is also a "machinegun".

April 10, 2008, 04:46 PM	#15
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	First, no one said "a shoestring is a machinegun." They said that a string made up to act as a lightning link, and inserted into an AR-15 in a certain way in combination with certain M16 parts, with the deliberate intent of making the weapon fire full auto is a machinegun under the "part or parts" section of the law. It is a stretch, and might be a tough sell to a jury, but the way the law is written, a shoestring made that way and used that way would be a machinegun. The idea is hardly new - a shoestring is a deadly weapon if it is put around someone's neck with intent to strangle that person. It is not the object, but the way it is intended to be used. As to the other issue, ssilcon, frankly I get damned tired of people raving about the law being wrong, unconstitutional, unenforceable, etc. I agree that freedom is constantly being eroded, but the last time I checked, neither of us is charged with interpreting the Constitution, so what is the point in a rant? The law is what it is. We can try to change it, but meanwhile what are the alternatives to obeying it? Revolution? Prison? Please lay them out, so we can see whether we like them. I am glad you register and vote. I am also damned tired of people raving against gun laws, then I find that they have never voted in their lives, never joined a pro-gun organization, never contributed to a pro-gun candidate, never did anything but stand around a gun shop, or on the internet, and rave and rant to those who already agree with them. People on these forums usually have real questions and want real information. Most of us try to provide what help we can. I fail to see what you are contributing by whining about how the law shouldn't be what it is. I can't see that you provided any help, discussed any issue in a realistic way, or did anything but encourage the idea that any law anyone considers "bad" can be ignored. Jim

April 13, 2008, 12:55 PM	#18
BrunoNorway Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: Hedmark, Norway Posts: 380	HKuser where is the video? you pull the ring thats conected to the shoestring right? then the rifle fires one round, the semi auto-acktion makes the charging handle, thats connected to the string, to go back, that will relase the presure on the string enabling the trigger to reset, then the charging handle will be pushed forward becouse of the spring, this will put presure on the string and setting of the trigger again, repeting the action... as you can see the trigger are being reset for each shot... fell free to tranclate this into american... i know there is alot of mispeling in here but i dont know what the right words are... i realy dont know the laws in Norway either but i dont think you could be arrested for it, i think both the police and the criminals would make fun of you... __________________ ☧ IN HOC SIGNO VINCES

April 19, 2008, 08:30 AM	#19
douglasschuckert Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Location: Pensacola, Florida Posts: 141	Yes.. This kit is legal in the USA. It is ONLY legal for SOT's, Military, and LEO Units to possess. It turns your Glock into a Post 86 Dealer Sample Machine Gun! Jim Keenan is correct! If you own an AR-15 and ANY... ANY AT ALL... of the M16 fire control parts, according to the ATF you ARE IN POSSESSION OF AN ILLEGAL MACHINE GUN... If you have an ar-15 and you use 1 piece out of an M16 in your lower, you stand to get busted for having a machingun even though it doesn't go full auto... IE using an M16 selector instead of a AR-15 selector, or switching hammers.. yadda yadda yadda... DO NOT TRY AND MAKE YOUR GUN SHOOT MORE THAN ONE ROUND WITH A PULL OF A TRIGGER!!! ITS ILLEGAL... A DEVICE THAT BUMP-FIRES THE WEAPON FOR YOU IS LEGALLY CONSIDERED A MACHINE GUN!!! Bill Atkins had his bumpfiring stock reclassified and subsequently banned due to that very fact! google "atkins accelerator" __________________ Write your representative and say no to HR 1022!!! (Yet another $%$(&^-up law)! http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!

April 19, 2008, 08:58 AM	#21
Nortonics Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2004 Location: Murderapolis Posts: 521	Ummm, did Mommy & Daddy forget to teach you not to mess with the idiot on the corner? Gotta' luv the professional web site creation, complete with HS spelling & shady payment options. I'm surprised the site owner didn't provide a unprotected CC payment option right there on the site. Silly furry foreigners... __________________ Tom.

April 19, 2008, 10:23 AM	#22
douglasschuckert Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Location: Pensacola, Florida Posts: 141	This is why I specifically said 'lower' :-) But you are correct.... as usual... You can use a the fullauto bolt/carriers in your Title 1 weapons with out being in violation... BobCat Weapons, the guys that make the kick ass copy of the MP5... they all ship out will full auto bolts and carriers... BobCat tests them on full auto before the ship them out (they remove the sear and FGC beforehand). VUPDBlue: You should give www.uzitalk.com/forums a shoot. Its a VERY will designed place almost ENTIRELY setup for NFA... Not just Uzi's... Most of the big guys and manufacturers are there too. __________________ Write your representative and say no to HR 1022!!! (Yet another $%$(&^-up law)! http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!

April 19, 2008, 11:57 AM	#23
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The "shoestring" doesn't operate by pulling any "ring". It is like the "lightning link", and requires an M16 safety and an M16 bolt carrier to operate, but unlike the DIAS does not require an M16 hammer. It is designed to pull the disconnector as the bolt carrier closes, releasing the hammer to fire another round without the operator releasing and pulling the trigger, in other words, full auto fire. Jim

April 19, 2008, 07:30 PM	#25
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I may be wrong, but I had understood from what folks have said that the "shoestring" was installed as I mentioned on the AR-15, along with a "paddle". Edited: After examining the above picture, I see how the system works, and it does appear to be a reasonably reliable way of gaining rapid fire. I also note the second BATFE letter saying that all shoestrings are not machineguns, for which I thank them. I think that within the letter and intent of the law, BATFE is probably correct. A string made that way and arranged in that manner would have no other purpose but to convert a semi-auto into a full auto firearm, just like the string substituting for the lightning link. This is especially the case since the shooter does not need to pull the trigger to get a second shot, which is the criteria established in the law. Like some other "parts", possession would not itself be illegal, but if installed on a rifle that way, it would be. Here is a link to the "lightning link". It was my earlier understanding that the "string" substituted for the horizontal part of the device; I know other improvised devices have used common items such as paper clips. http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html Jim