Opinions of the Kel-Tec P32 - Page 5

Bill DeShivs · November 25, 2020, 01:58 PM

Regardless what Ruger does-they don't produce any gun that is as small, thin, and lightweight as the Keltec P32.

TruthTellers · November 27, 2020, 08:05 PM

No and they never will, even their clones of Kel Tec pistols are heavier than the Kel Tecs, but what Ruger does is take what Kel Tec does and improves its function. The LC9s and LCPII have a far better triggers or sights than their KT counterparts and that's largely the selling point.

I am a bit surprised that Ruger hasn't made a run at their own PMR30 or CP33 yet, they apparently decided that 5.7 was a better choice to make a pistol with a 30 rd capacity for and they may be right. I doubt a $600 gun in an offbeat caliber like 5.7 is going to sell as well as a $350 gun in .22 Mag will, regardless of it's ballistics or performance. Ignorant newbie gun owner walks in wants a high capacity pistol with low recoil and looks at the PMR and the Ruger 57, looks at the cost of the gun and the ammo and walks out with the PMR30.

Bill DeShivs · November 27, 2020, 08:13 PM

I really wish Keltec would make a P-25. It would be tiny!

Forte S+W · November 28, 2020, 09:38 AM

I still think that Ruger ought to offer a variant of the Ruger-57 chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev. I imagine that such would be more popular given the sheer number of old MilSurp Tokarev Pistols on the market, not to mention the persistent desire by folks who own Tokarev Pistols for a modern firearm chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev.

I presume that the Ruger-57 could easily be chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev without the need for a redesign considering that 7.62x25 Tokarev is a lower pressure cartridge. Ruger would just have to scale it up a bit.
I'm not interested in the Ruger-57, but I would be all over a Ruger-762.

wild cat mccane · November 28, 2020, 03:38 PM

I agree on that.

7.62 would be fun in a modern gun.

TruthTellers · November 29, 2020, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

I still think that Ruger ought to offer a variant of the Ruger-57 chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev. I imagine that such would be more popular given the sheer number of old MilSurp Tokarev Pistols on the market, not to mention the persistent desire by folks who own Tokarev Pistols for a modern firearm chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev.

I presume that the Ruger-57 could easily be chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev without the need for a redesign considering that 7.62x25 Tokarev is a lower pressure cartridge. Ruger would just have to scale it up a bit.
I'm not interested in the Ruger-57, but I would be all over a Ruger-762.

Apologies to the OP for contributing in this thread hijack, but I don't what Ruger was thinking when they decided to go ahead with the 57. First is the 57 could compete with FN's overpriced and questionably performing pistol, that was a given, but who was asking for a cheaper 5.7 traditional pistol? Who exactly is going to turn in their 9mm for a 5.7?

So, right there it shows that the entire purpose was to make a pistol in a caliber that people know of, but don't own due to the entry price. Could Ruger do the same for 7.62x25? When Ruger would be competing against $300 Tok clones, I don't think so, even tho a modern polymer frame pistol in 7.62 Tok would be of interest to a few people, it wouldn't interest enough people.

What would interest people a lot more is if Ruger decided to offer a single stack version and rename the pistol the Ruger-357 and put .357 Magnum in it.

wild cat mccane · November 30, 2020, 04:57 PM

My opinion is there is demand for a fun auto round (57).

Forums have largely overstated the cost of 57. Every time it comes up someone says it cost a lot. Before this year, American Eagle 5.7 wasn't widely lower or higher at a given time than American Eagle 45.

I think 357 has a following still because it is range fun. HST/Gold Dots make 9mm as good with much lower velocity. 57 might be range fun for some...but I have a factory made 20rnd 9mm magazine from Walther that fits a P99/PPQ M1 that has been available for 20 years and only adds an inch to the P99/PPQ compact(ish) 4" barrel frame.

I think capacity for the 57 is overstated.

7.62 brings the loud bang to the auto party. I think that might be what some want to play with without a punishing snap.

Forte S+W · November 30, 2020, 05:07 PM

Can this really be described as a "thread hijack" when the original topic has run its course and technically already gone off on a long tangent regarding the Ruger LCP?

Regardless, I think that you're underestimating the core appeal of firearms which mainly exist for the purpose of being unique, different, and just plain fun to shoot. The fact that the FN FiveseveN has remained on the market for as long as it has even at it's upscale price-point clearly illustrates that there are enough folks with interest in the 5.7x28 FN cartridge as well as pistols chambered in it. I think that Ruger noticed that and rightly figured that if they were to offer a 5.7x28 pistol at a lower price-point, they could attract the attention of those who were interested in the FiveseveN, but weren't willing to throw down over $1000 for a firearm that they only desired as a novelty range gun.

Granted that the Ruger-57 hasn't exactly taken off, but I think that has more to do with timing than anything else.

You may not understand it, but some folks don't buy firearms strictly for defensive purposes, some are just for fun at the range, and firearms with unique characteristics tend to have wide appeal for recreational shooting. Consider the Taurus Judge, the firearm folks love to hate because it's impractical, and inaccurate, and no true Scotsman would ever own one, and yadda yadda yadda. Meanwhile, it has been on the market for over a decade. Now granted, the popular explanation for its mainstream success is the arrogant, elitist assertion that only stupid, unattractive, inexperienced, [insert derogatory adjectives here] are buying the gun. In reality, many consider it to be an interesting firearm to shoot at the range. Yeah, yeah, I know... "There's absolutely nothing cool or fun about shooting a shotgun shell out of a Revolver!" Sure, there isn't. I mean, what could possibly be entertaining about that, right? Strangely, entertainment tends to be highly subjective, not everyone agrees, and sometimes what other folks find entertaining might seem stupid or boring to others. So much like how people buy the Judge because they think it's cool and fun, folks feel the same about the FiveseveN, the Desert Eagle, Coonan 1911s, AMT Automags, etc.

As for the concept of a Ruger-762 selling poorly because it would have to compete with old surplus Tokarev Pistols. Again, a widespread sentiment I have seen among owners of Tokerev pistols is the desire for a modern firearm chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev. Furthermore, to use the Judge as an example yet again, Smith & Wesson makes their own version of the Judge known as the Governor. It's basically the same gun, only with a 6-shot cylinder and it costs roughly twice the amount of the Judge, yet it too has remained profitable enough for production to continue. So yeah, saying that a Ruger-762 couldn't possibly sell because there are cheap old Tokarev Pistols on the market is like saying that the S&W Governor could never possibly sell because the Judge is on the market, only worse because the Tokarev is a design which dates back to nearly a century ago.

The moral of the story is, don't assume that your own sentiments on any given subject reflect those of people in general, regardless of how correct you believe them to be. Once more, entertainment is highly subjective. Personally, I'm not a fan of Football and would never pay for tickets, especially not for front row seats, but others do, and that's okay, I'm not going to question it as though entertainment is objective and therefore such tastes are objectively wrong.

ballardw · November 30, 2020, 05:33 PM

Part of the attraction of a 5.7 goes away with 7.62x25 because the 7.62x25 has the same head diameter of 9mm and the 5.7 is much smaller so you lose rounds in a similar sized magazine quickly.

None of the 7.62x25 pistols, especially the Tokarevs, have what I would call good ergonomics and the after-design safeties are at best poor and at worst an abomination (I've had one of the safeties fall out of the pistol to parts unknown which left the trigger in the 25+ pound range)

Forte S+W · November 30, 2020, 06:41 PM

I disagree, 7.62x25 Tokarev is substantially more powerful than 5.7x28 FN, and personally I'm willing to sacrifice capacity in exchange for down range performance. 7.62x25 Tokarev provides performance comparable to .30 Carbine in a much smaller package, 5.7x28 FN provides performance comparable to .22WMR in a much smaller package.

That being said, you just listed some of the reasons why folks who own Tokarev Pistols desire a modern firearm chambered in the cartridge. Poor ergonomics, terrible tacked-on safeties, heavy single action triggers. What the Tokarev TT-33 Pistol needs is a modern redesign based on modern 1911s, and what the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge needs is a new

November 25, 2020, 01:58 PM	#101
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	Regardless what Ruger does-they don't produce any gun that is as small, thin, and lightweight as the Keltec P32. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 27, 2020, 08:05 PM	#102
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,887	No and they never will, even their clones of Kel Tec pistols are heavier than the Kel Tecs, but what Ruger does is take what Kel Tec does and improves its function. The LC9s and LCPII have a far better triggers or sights than their KT counterparts and that's largely the selling point. I am a bit surprised that Ruger hasn't made a run at their own PMR30 or CP33 yet, they apparently decided that 5.7 was a better choice to make a pistol with a 30 rd capacity for and they may be right. I doubt a $600 gun in an offbeat caliber like 5.7 is going to sell as well as a $350 gun in .22 Mag will, regardless of it's ballistics or performance. Ignorant newbie gun owner walks in wants a high capacity pistol with low recoil and looks at the PMR and the Ruger 57, looks at the cost of the gun and the ammo and walks out with the PMR30. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

November 27, 2020, 08:13 PM	#103
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	I really wish Keltec would make a P-25. It would be tiny! __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 28, 2020, 09:38 AM	#104
Forte S+W Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2019 Posts: 819	I still think that Ruger ought to offer a variant of the Ruger-57 chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev. I imagine that such would be more popular given the sheer number of old MilSurp Tokarev Pistols on the market, not to mention the persistent desire by folks who own Tokarev Pistols for a modern firearm chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev. I presume that the Ruger-57 could easily be chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev without the need for a redesign considering that 7.62x25 Tokarev is a lower pressure cartridge. Ruger would just have to scale it up a bit. I'm not interested in the Ruger-57, but I would be all over a Ruger-762. __________________ Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.

November 30, 2020, 05:07 PM	#108
Forte S+W Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2019 Posts: 819	Can this really be described as a "thread hijack" when the original topic has run its course and technically already gone off on a long tangent regarding the Ruger LCP? Regardless, I think that you're underestimating the core appeal of firearms which mainly exist for the purpose of being unique, different, and just plain fun to shoot. The fact that the FN FiveseveN has remained on the market for as long as it has even at it's upscale price-point clearly illustrates that there are enough folks with interest in the 5.7x28 FN cartridge as well as pistols chambered in it. I think that Ruger noticed that and rightly figured that if they were to offer a 5.7x28 pistol at a lower price-point, they could attract the attention of those who were interested in the FiveseveN, but weren't willing to throw down over $1000 for a firearm that they only desired as a novelty range gun. Granted that the Ruger-57 hasn't exactly taken off, but I think that has more to do with timing than anything else. You may not understand it, but some folks don't buy firearms strictly for defensive purposes, some are just for fun at the range, and firearms with unique characteristics tend to have wide appeal for recreational shooting. Consider the Taurus Judge, the firearm folks love to hate because it's impractical, and inaccurate, and no true Scotsman would ever own one, and yadda yadda yadda. Meanwhile, it has been on the market for over a decade. Now granted, the popular explanation for its mainstream success is the arrogant, elitist assertion that only stupid, unattractive, inexperienced, [insert derogatory adjectives here] are buying the gun. In reality, many consider it to be an interesting firearm to shoot at the range. Yeah, yeah, I know... "There's absolutely nothing cool or fun about shooting a shotgun shell out of a Revolver!" Sure, there isn't. I mean, what could possibly be entertaining about that, right? Strangely, entertainment tends to be highly subjective, not everyone agrees, and sometimes what other folks find entertaining might seem stupid or boring to others. So much like how people buy the Judge because they think it's cool and fun, folks feel the same about the FiveseveN, the Desert Eagle, Coonan 1911s, AMT Automags, etc. As for the concept of a Ruger-762 selling poorly because it would have to compete with old surplus Tokarev Pistols. Again, a widespread sentiment I have seen among owners of Tokerev pistols is the desire for a modern firearm chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev. Furthermore, to use the Judge as an example yet again, Smith & Wesson makes their own version of the Judge known as the Governor. It's basically the same gun, only with a 6-shot cylinder and it costs roughly twice the amount of the Judge, yet it too has remained profitable enough for production to continue. So yeah, saying that a Ruger-762 couldn't possibly sell because there are cheap old Tokarev Pistols on the market is like saying that the S&W Governor could never possibly sell because the Judge is on the market, only worse because the Tokarev is a design which dates back to nearly a century ago. The moral of the story is, don't assume that your own sentiments on any given subject reflect those of people in general, regardless of how correct you believe them to be. Once more, entertainment is highly subjective. Personally, I'm not a fan of Football and would never pay for tickets, especially not for front row seats, but others do, and that's okay, I'm not going to question it as though entertainment is objective and therefore such tastes are objectively wrong. __________________ Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.

November 28, 2020, 03:38 PM	#105
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	I agree on that. 7.62 would be fun in a modern gun.

November 30, 2020, 04:57 PM	#107
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	My opinion is there is demand for a fun auto round (57). Forums have largely overstated the cost of 57. Every time it comes up someone says it cost a lot. Before this year, American Eagle 5.7 wasn't widely lower or higher at a given time than American Eagle 45. I think 357 has a following still because it is range fun. HST/Gold Dots make 9mm as good with much lower velocity. 57 might be range fun for some...but I have a factory made 20rnd 9mm magazine from Walther that fits a P99/PPQ M1 that has been available for 20 years and only adds an inch to the P99/PPQ compact(ish) 4" barrel frame. I think capacity for the 57 is overstated. 7.62 brings the loud bang to the auto party. I think that might be what some want to play with without a punishing snap.

November 30, 2020, 05:33 PM	#109
ballardw Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 1,411	Part of the attraction of a 5.7 goes away with 7.62x25 because the 7.62x25 has the same head diameter of 9mm and the 5.7 is much smaller so you lose rounds in a similar sized magazine quickly. None of the 7.62x25 pistols, especially the Tokarevs, have what I would call good ergonomics and the after-design safeties are at best poor and at worst an abomination (I've had one of the safeties fall out of the pistol to parts unknown which left the trigger in the 25+ pound range) __________________ -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ All data is flawed, some just less so.

November 30, 2020, 06:41 PM	#110
Forte S+W Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2019 Posts: 819	I disagree, 7.62x25 Tokarev is substantially more powerful than 5.7x28 FN, and personally I'm willing to sacrifice capacity in exchange for down range performance. 7.62x25 Tokarev provides performance comparable to .30 Carbine in a much smaller package, 5.7x28 FN provides performance comparable to .22WMR in a much smaller package. That being said, you just listed some of the reasons why folks who own Tokarev Pistols desire a modern firearm chambered in the cartridge. Poor ergonomics, terrible tacked-on safeties, heavy single action triggers. What the Tokarev TT-33 Pistol needs is a modern redesign based on modern 1911s, and what the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge needs is a new __________________ Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.