The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 12, 2018, 07:12 PM   #26
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangerrich99
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB
If a 1911 slide drops because the mag is slammed home, there's something wrong with the gun.
Not to argue, but every 1911 I've ever owned has functioned that way. For that matter, it's worked consistently with my S&W 4003, SIG P229, Beretta PX4, Glock 19, as well as several others. In fact, the only full-size semi-auto I own that it doesn't work with is my S&W M&P9 2.0. To be clear, I am referring to using a fully loaded magazine, not an empty one.

Of course, I've only owned about a dozen 1911s, and a little more than a dozen other semis, so we're not talking a large sample size.
I'm going to have to go with RickB on this one. I, too, only have my own pistols as a sample set, and that's perhaps a dozen and a half over the past twenty years. Not one "auto closes" the slide when a magazine is slammed home, and it shouldn't do that. RickB is correct -- if the gun does that, it's defective.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old September 12, 2018, 07:40 PM   #27
Rangerrich99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2014
Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
I'm going to have to go with RickB on this one. I, too, only have my own pistols as a sample set, and that's perhaps a dozen and a half over the past twenty years. Not one "auto closes" the slide when a magazine is slammed home, and it shouldn't do that. RickB is correct -- if the gun does that, it's defective.
So I have a little over 20 defective guns. Good to know.
Rangerrich99 is offline  
Old September 12, 2018, 07:43 PM   #28
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 2,866
Quote:
In fact, the only full-size semi-auto I own that it doesn't work with is my S&W M&P9 2.0
It was common for the 1.0 M&P’s to let the slide slam closed if the mag was inserted “briskly”. The Colorado State patrol identified this issue early and chose to ignore it. The slide only closes after the mag is fully inserted...so its kind of a freebe.

Dont plan on it, but if it happens, go with it.

The 2.0 guns are specifically redesigned to NOT do it.
Sharkbite is offline  
Old September 12, 2018, 07:54 PM   #29
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 4,920
Quote:
Springs, including coil springs, are rated is terms of force/energy per unit of length. The only exception is variable rate springs, which are available for the 1911 but far less common than fixed rate springs.

http://brlcad.org/design/drafting/M1911-A1_REDUX.pdf
Scroll through to page 12 of 59. Note the spring rate: 2.88 LB/INCH. That's a linear rate, not exponential.

Then notice the two reference lengths and strengths listed. At free length, the compressed energy is zero. Compressing to a length of 3.72" is a delta of 2.83". Multiply that by 2.88 and we get 8.1504 pounds. Right on the money. Compress it again, to 1.81 ", and there's a delta of 1.91". Multiply 1.91 times 2.88 and you get 5.5008.

5.5008 + 8.1504 = 13.6512. Again, right on the money. The specified rating at full compression is 13.55 +/- .60.
Maybe I'm not understandin everything that you just put out there, but let me explain the facts as I see them.

If I use a scale that operates on coil springs, I can put a one pound weight on and it compresses the spring the distance that one pound will compress it. Two pounds compresses it more, ten, twenty, fifty, until that spring is fully compressed ring to ring, and it has stored up every bit of energy that it can. then it releases all of the energy when the weight has been removed.

So, simply put, if that coil spring on the slide is pushed back a tiny bit further, a bit more energy is exerted, and hence, that energy is stored in the spring. Then that energy is released and used to shove the slide forward.

As it is compressed, the first pound, for example, compresses the spring a certain distance. As the weight adds up, the spring is compressed a little less with every ounce of weight until it reaches max compression, ring to ring. It's called stacking, i think, and if that doesn't represent a curve, X and Y axis measuring distance of compression and weight or force applied on the other axis, I don't know what it would be called.

I always noted that when I was shooting a bow, the first inch of draw was kinda easy, just a single finger did it. then the last inch or took my whole hand and all of the strength in my shoulder and biceps. again, that seems to denote a curve.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old September 12, 2018, 09:19 PM   #30
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg
Maybe I'm not understandin everything that you just put out there, but let me explain the facts as I see them.

If I use a scale that operates on coil springs, I can put a one pound weight on and it compresses the spring the distance that one pound will compress it. Two pounds compresses it more, ten, twenty, fifty, until that spring is fully compressed ring to ring, and it has stored up every bit of energy that it can. then it releases all of the energy when the weight has been removed.

So, simply put, if that coil spring on the slide is pushed back a tiny bit further, a bit more energy is exerted, and hence, that energy is stored in the spring. Then that energy is released and used to shove the slide forward.

As it is compressed, the first pound, for example, compresses the spring a certain distance. As the weight adds up, the spring is compressed a little less with every ounce of weight until it reaches max compression, ring to ring. It's called stacking, i think, and if that doesn't represent a curve, X and Y axis measuring distance of compression and weight or force applied on the other axis, I don't know what it would be called.

I always noted that when I was shooting a bow, the first inch of draw was kinda easy, just a single finger did it. then the last inch or took my whole hand and all of the strength in my shoulder and biceps. again, that seems to denote a curve.
Correct, you are not understanding it correctly.

Your description is correct, but the conclusion you reached that it's a curve (meaning exponential increase) is not correct. If it starts out at zero pounds uncompressed, and has a rating of only 8 pounds when the slide is closed but 14 pounds when the slide is retracted, obviously your hand has to work harder toward the end of the pull than at the beginning.

Here's how it looks graphed -- you can see it's a straight line, not a curve. So it's a linear increase, not exponential (which would be a curve that gets steeper toward the right). Note that the spring's "rate" (not to be confused with "rating," which refers to the amount of energy when the spring is fully compressed to its working length) is expressed as 2.88 pounds per inch. That alone tells you that it's a linear (constant) relationship. For each inch you compress the spring, you store 2.88 pounds more energy.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Recoil_Spring_Rate_Graph.JPG (75.4 KB, 120 views)

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; September 12, 2018 at 09:26 PM.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 12:20 AM   #31
Charlie_98
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2011
Location: McKinney, TX
Posts: 724
Quote:
Of course, I've only owned about a dozen 1911s, and a little more than a dozen other semis, so we're not talking a large sample size.

But according to your statement, every semi-auto I've ever owned has been defective, which just from a probability standpoint, is highly unlikely. I'm probably more likely to have been hit by lightning.
If you think about how the slide stop is designed, and designed to operate, in a 1911, you will understand how dumb that statement is. I've jammed many a magazine home on my 1911's, not one has dropped the slide. I'm glad you are in Phoenix... so I don't have the chance to get struck by lightning...
__________________
Wherever you go, there you are...
Charlie_98 is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 12:53 AM   #32
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,424
If we accept the odds that ALL your pistols (save one?) aren't "defective" then that only leaves you. You must be doing something the rest of us aren't. OR you're hitting the slide stop without realizing it.

Which, seems a bit more likely than the fact that you are slamming a loaded mag into the gun hard enough to jar it loose from inertia alone.

Could it be possible that when you slam a fresh mag home, your grip shifts enough to bump the slide stop without you realizing it?
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 12:53 AM   #33
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 5,005
I'm new to 1911's so all I can do is interpret what my colt manual says; I'm pretty sure it says not to slam a magazine home. Mine is a double spring short guide-rod design--so it "worms into a squiggle" under compression--I doubt it has a straight linear compression force--but I'm not a fizzics guy.
__________________
I screw things up--so you don't have to.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; September 13, 2018 at 11:05 AM.
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 06:57 AM   #34
rodfac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,773
Quote:
If we accept the odds that ALL your pistols (save one?) aren't "defective" then that only leaves you. You must be doing something the rest of us aren't. OR you're hitting the slide stop without realizing it.
Yep...that's my take on his technique as well. I've owned a dozen, maybe more 1911's (Colts, a WWll Remington-Rand, three Rugers, and a Sig), and none of them will release the slide by ramming home a loaded magazine. And BTW, that includes two 9mm's, and a pair of .38 Supers as well as the more common .45 ACPs. Rod
__________________
Cherish our flag, honor it, defend what it stands for or get the hell out. Our Freedoms are not free, they've been paid for many times over by heros in uniform. Far better men than I, died that we could be FREE.

USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, An Loc, lll Corps, RVN, 69-70, Vietnam Vet '69-'73
rodfac is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 08:07 AM   #35
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 2,476
I use the slide lock. I was trained to do that in the early 70s in the USMC. Pulling and releasing the slide is a 2nd way to do it and it's just fine, but it requires 2 hands, whereas the use of the slide lock needs only the right hand. Train with both, but do most of the training with the slide lock. If and when, for what ever reason you need to use the 2 hand method, you'll do it quick and it will be easy.
Most "experts" over think this, and try to get you to do it too, because the simple way that has worked for 100 years is not something people think is a valuable "skill" that they will pay money for. It's just marketing. We see it in "new math" liberalism in school curriculum and the "green movement" in schools, all of which is based in junk-science and runs from poor theory to outright lies, but if it's "new" people pay money for it.

Needed to come up with "advanced techniques" is what most teachers try to sell, be it in public schools, collages and even gun-training, but the real truth is that if you are doing anything but basics in shooting you are doing it wrong.
There are no good "advanced techniques" for shooting. There are lots of them for fighting, and those all involve movement and communications so as to come up with a winning strategy for a fight in short order and "on the fly". So there are many skills that can be taught and learned about fighting, but if the shooting part is being taught in some "new way" it's most likely wrong or semi-complete.
Wyosmith is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 08:49 AM   #36
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 39,861
I slap the cylinder closed with authority.


The only semi-auto I own where I don't slingshot the slide to release it on a fresh magazine is my P7PSP.

With that one I squeeze the action cocker, which drops the slide and chambers a fresh round.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 10:16 AM   #37
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Western WA
Posts: 7,648
Quote:
So I have a little over 20 defective guns. Good to know.
I have a 1918 Colt, a '42 Colt, various stock and custom pistols from Colt, Springfield, Caspian, Auto Ordnance, Detonics, and none of them drop the slide during a reload.
If yours do, and you've trained for them to always do so, that's great.
I've seen some Glocks drop the slide prematurely and not pick up a round, so I would never trust that the gun is going to load itself under those conditions.
__________________
Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.
RickB is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 10:40 AM   #38
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by stagpanther
I'm new to 1911's so all I can do is interpret what my colt manual says; I'm pretty sure it says not to slam a magazine home and also to "ride" the slide with your hand as opposed to letting it drop free or sling shot.
The Colt manual does not say to "ride" the slide closed. Just the opposite. Look at page 25 of your Colt manual:

Quote:
IMPORTANT: Do not strike base of magazine to drive it home--just push it firmly into pistol. Otherwise, you could damage magazine and injure your hand.

5. When you are ready to shoot, grip the slide as described in Step 3 and pull it fully rearward to cock the hammer. Release slide to feed a round from the magazine into the chamber. THE PISTOL IS NOW LOADED, COCKED AND READY TO FIRE.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 11:05 AM   #39
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 5,005
That's correct Aquila--my bad--though I was half right for the "do not slam" the mag home. These 1911's are new to me (though yeah, logically you would probably never ride any slide).
__________________
I screw things up--so you don't have to.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 11:11 AM   #40
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 5,005
Just for that--I'm going to have to whip up some cartridges for my colt 1911 and go do some shooting.
__________________
I screw things up--so you don't have to.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 11:16 AM   #41
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 2,719
I thank you all for all your input interesting reading . It's nice to through something out and all my forum friends chime in . Even though it is sometimes alittle over my high school level of education , to me it's like we're sitting in my living room coming up with answers to problems , my post really has no right or wrong answer just maybe something to think about when racking your slide . Now let's talk about fitting a 1911 barrel to the slide . Only kidding , way over my pay grade . Thanks Again Guy's , until the next question . Be Well.

Chris
cw308 is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 06:36 PM   #42
peacefulgary
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 585
I use the slingshot method because that's how I learned growing up. And now it's just ingrained in my muscle memory.
But I was taught you let it go and never ease it forward as that can cause a mis-feed.
peacefulgary is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 07:24 PM   #43
Rangerrich99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2014
Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 959
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
If we accept the odds that ALL your pistols (save one?) aren't "defective" then that only leaves you. You must be doing something the rest of us aren't. OR you're hitting the slide stop without realizing it.

Which, seems a bit more likely than the fact that you are slamming a loaded mag into the gun hard enough to jar it loose from inertia alone.

Could it be possible that when you slam a fresh mag home, your grip shifts enough to bump the slide stop without you realizing it?
44AMP;

It seems you are correct. I just got home a little bit ago and in a righteous fit I went to the safe to prove everyone wrong.

Imagine my chagrin when I found that my thumb does in fact just barely cover the slide release tab on all of my 1911s after dropping the empty. Basically when I push the mag release, my thumb naturally returns to the area on the slide just behind and above the rear of the slide release. It does not with my S&W 1911SC-E because I have the thicker grip panels on it, which is just enough to put my thumb just a few millimeters aft of the slide release. All of my other 1911s feature the thinner grip panels.

With the SIG P229, the release is closer and my thumb naturally rides on it during firing.

Anyway, I was wrong, or I'm probably wrong in my self-assessment. The probability is very high that my thumb actually actuates the slide release when I insert a mag, giving me the illusion that the mag somehow flipped the release. Sorry about that folks.

On the bright side, all of my guns aren't defective (knew that already, but now at least I know what's really happening). Carry on.
Rangerrich99 is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 07:24 PM   #44
kenny53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2015
Location: My back yard
Posts: 464
I use the slingshot method. But never slam the slid home on a empty chamber. I believe it harms the extractor.
kenny53 is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 07:39 PM   #45
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 2,719
kenny53
Releasing the slide on an empty chamber I would agree is harmfull , I've read an saw videos saying the opposite . That would open up another can of worms for sure. When it comes to releasing the slide with a loaded magazine , it comes down to whatever your most comfortable with and wear on the locking lever ( release lever ) isn't a concern . I ask these questions because I enjoy shooting my 3" 1911 more then any of my other handguns . I shoot 50 rounds every week . Colt stopped making the New Agent years ago . For me it's a perfect carry that I love to shooting .

Last edited by cw308; September 13, 2018 at 07:52 PM.
cw308 is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 08:15 PM   #46
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 4,920
Quote:
I slap the cylinder closed with authority.
There has always got to be at least one bloody misfit.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 08:58 PM   #47
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 2,719
In the movies some even close the cylinder with a flick of the rest, not so good for the revolver. See some funny stuff in the movies .
cw308 is offline  
Old September 13, 2018, 11:24 PM   #48
SDF880
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2009
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 372
I have 5 M&P full size and 3 C models 40 and 357SIG and they all will release the slide if I aggressively slap the mag in. I'm used to it shooting them no issue! None of my other pistols will do this!
SDF880 is offline  
Old September 14, 2018, 08:09 AM   #49
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 2,719
That is one feature I wouldn't want for sure .
cw308 is offline  
Old September 14, 2018, 08:50 AM   #50
Charlie_98
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2011
Location: McKinney, TX
Posts: 724
Quote:
Anyway, I was wrong, or I'm probably wrong in my self-assessment. The probability is very high that my thumb actually actuates the slide release when I insert a mag, giving me the illusion that the mag somehow flipped the release. Sorry about that folks.
30 days extra duty, and loss of one stripe!

Just kidding.

It's interesting... my last 1911, a Springfield, I fitted with an extended slide release... which was really nice. Then I found, once I started shooting 'thumb over safety' that my thumb did, indeed, slightly rest on the extended stop, so during rapid fire strings and such my slide wouldn't lock back after the last round... I thought my pistol was messed up!
__________________
Wherever you go, there you are...
Charlie_98 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09579 seconds with 11 queries