Real Life - Boxed in.

[Dragon55]

He had to be to approach you that close that time of day.

I think you handled it exactly right.

Honest folks genuinely looking for work will show up in broad daylight and ring the front door bell.

Fortunately I don't have to deal with your exact situation. The garage door closes behind me.

[Latex Ducky]

Scott:


It is NOT polite to approach someone in the dark.
It is NOT polite to approach someone unannounced, especially in the dark.
When approaching a stranger, the first 2 rules I mentioned are even more important.
It is retarded to conduct business at non-business hours.

If you must get someones attention, then announce yourself but at a distance where you feel the other person would not feel threatened.

ZeSpectre is 100% justified in how he reacted.

An armed society is a polite society.

[MLeake]

... you are correct. I thought about that after I posted.

That movie has my favorite running gag line: "I heard you wuz dead." Boone's last words, shortly after Big Jake has said he's going to kill the next person who says that to him...

[rantingredneck]

I like, "You call me 'Daddy' again and we're gonna finish this fight!" One of my all-time favorite movies......

[raftman]

Drifters tend to be pretty unpredictable. Studies have shown that the majority of these drifter type people have substance abuse problems, and a hugely disproportionate amount of them have severe mental illnesses. From what I've read, less than 5% of the general population has a severe mental illness, but as much as 40% of the homeless population does. Of course, some homeless are just ordinary people that are down on their luck, but many are for reasons like drug abuse, and mental illness, very unpredictable and unstable. They all need help in one form or another, but that doesn't change the fact that the types that are clearly behaving abnormally, and/or are acting as if they're under the influence can be very dangerous and as a result, additional caution is warranted.

[robmkivseries70]

This is a common MO for casing, getting inside the property line, etc. I believe the poster handled it just right.
Best,
Rob

[JohnKSa]

Without getting into whether or not the actions of the OP were appropriate, some of you need to read the Five Stages of Violent Crime.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

1) Intent
2) Interview
3) Positioning
4) Attack
5) Reaction

The "drifter" in the OP's story was basically up to stage 3 of 5. Now it's true that the drifter could have been completely innocent, but a person who is aware of the 5 stages and what they are would be justified in feeling a certain level of alarm given the drifter's actions as described.

[Mr. Davis]

I think you guys might come off a little odd to other people who notice your behavior.

Sounds kind of like our President - more concerned about being popular with others than doing what's right and standing up for one's own.

I'd rather come off a little odd than get mugged in my own driveway. OP, I think you handled things just fine. If nothing else, some guy looking to make some cash got a good lesson in business etiquette.

[wahsben]

As the saying goes: Better safe than sorry.

[ZeSpectre]

Last night I got home and was out mowing the lawn.

The nice old neighbor lady came over to thank me for checking up on her the other night, and to tell me she had to call the police at about 3:30AM because someone was trying to open the kitchen window she had left ajar. (Fortunately she has that window "pinned" so it only opens a couple of inches for ventilation).

The police found tracks in her mulch so there was physical evidence that someone was there.

We got to go over the description of the wandering "handyman" again in case it was him.

[Mr. James]

I've had the pleasure of meeting ZeSpectre, and of breaking bread with him. A more intelligent and level-headed gentleman would be hard to imagine. When reading the original post, I was thinking right along with JohnKSa - this was perilously close to a hand-to-hand, or hand-to-knife, or hand-to-whatever this sonuvadog had in mind.

Looking for a handout? Hardly. Looking for a day job? Complete BS. Looking to cold-cock and rob ZeSpectre? Quite likely.

I don't quail in terror at approaching strangers, but any sumbich sneaking up on me in the dark in my own carport in this fashion is going to be looking at the muzzle of a 1911. If anything, ZeSpectre's reaction was restrained and "professional," for want of a better term.

So, I'll join in the "well dones."

[5whiskey]

I have to support the actions of Zespector as well. To just turn around and completely ignore several red flags to be polite to the guy, niavely assuming that everyone you would ever encounter has the absolute best of intentions, could have turned into nothing. It could also turn into grave danger.

The key to any form of self defense is to stay ahead of the reaction curve... meaning you have to anticipate something bad COULD happen. Innocently assuming that everyone is being nice will end up in you laying on your back fighting for your life in a disadvantaged position because you weren't ready. The sneakiness of the drifter didn't give you much time to anticipate, but he did give you just enough time to face him and square off before he could get the complete upper hand. I think you did everything perfect, though I wouldn't even criticize if you had drawn the sidearm and keep it at around 4 o'clock on the waist ready to level on him should he flinch. Of course that is distance dependent... if he was only 10 feet away or so that's starting to get WAY close IMHO. You did quiet well sir.



Remember boys and girls... Smile, be polite, professional, and courteous; but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

[Glenn Dee]

ZeSpectre... IMHO you reacted well within reason. People who invite themselves into your personal space have no right to expect a positive reaction. Who knows what this guy may have really been up to. I look at it like this... If you own a home with a big yard... common sense would tell that you already have made some arrangements. Why shoud you expect anyone to conduct any kind of business in a residential area, after dusk? I got the impression that he was stealthy in his walk up to you... why? It sounds to me like it may have been a mugging on it's way to happen... and the yard work story was if things didnt work out... By the way.. the drill you did with your firearm is called " covering from the loaded position" It's taught by the
nypd. Basically you have a subject covered without desplaying a firearm.

All in all a good job I think.

[markj]

When was the last time you had an unkempt stranger approach you at night, on your property?

I have 4 dogs and live out in the country, however, if you look at Omaha Nebr and the crime rate in the area I work in 30th and Ames you will find there are shootings almost every day. A few have died here in this local area recently.

My cousins sis in law was shot in Von Maur and died.

Use your head, keep aware at all times, stay out of dangerous situations. Kept me alive a long time now. Dont over react and most definatly do not shoot someone just for talking to ya.

We do tease folks like that out here. But most of the guys I hang out with have actual combat expirience.

Love Big Jake, JW had a lot of his family working on that one.

[Terry A]

Another vote for "Yes", ZeSpectre did a good job and it's because he followed HIS instincts in the situation he found himself in.

These people who just come up out of no where and start asking you for money or whatever, they have to be somewhat street savy themselves to have the cajones to come up on total strangers. They should expect the unexpected in return.

[riggins_83]

A scruffy looking vagabond came up to his house looking for a handout and he told him to go away. The ONLY place anyone would make a fuss over this is on TFL!

I think the scruffy looking vagabond should be looking for handouts in a well lit area not going house to house and approaching from behind! No way I'm going to assume there's no threat...

I think you handled it perfectly. When it come to your own safety and the possibility of being mugged or carjacked I'd rather be safe than sorry!

[Powderman]

I don't understand how some of you people can live your life from one day to the next without being on massive doses of Valium or some sort of tranquilizer? For some people, it seems that EVERY situation where you encounter a "stranger" approaching you is someone meaning to do you harm.

Here is some guy who just wants to rake your leaves or clean your gutters and you resort to using your best "command voice" to get him to go away while going into "weapon retention" mode, but yet the little old lady across the street managed to dispatch this horrible "BG" without using any of those tactics.

Then everyone here congratulates you for surviving this close call with death and praises your level-headed thinking in times of a crisis. You didn't survive a brush with death! You told some poor guy who was apparently down on his luck to go away and he did.

Seriously, what on earth did you do before you started carrying a gun? Were you always that scared out of your wits every time someone approached you to the point where you believed they intended to do you bodily harm

I guess you missed the part where it was mentioned that the encounter happened after dark.

Folks, I see the aftermath of "some guy" approaching like this quite a bit. It usually involves interviewing some poor soul who is shaking quite a bit; sometimes that person has a few choice bruises after their encounter. Sometimes, it is a person who is actually hurt pretty bad. Sometimes, it is a young man or woman who just came to the realization that the world is NOT a nice place. Sometimes, it's a mature man who just had to "take water" for the first time in his life; who was just humiliated, crushed, "punked out", whatever, in front of his family.

I think the OP showed remarkable restraint in NOT drawing his sidearm and letting the person approaching see down the muzzle of a drawn gun. There were so many danger signals in this instance that it's not even remotely funny.

I guess that some of you do NOT understand that the OP was very likely a few seconds from grievous injury or even death. This "citizen" that approached him was NOT trying to solicit for a job.

This coyote thought he was slinking up on a big wooley bleating sheep.
He found himself face to face with a bull sheepdog.

Muy hombre, my friend. Well met, and well done.

[skoro]

Seriously, what on earth did you do before you started carrying a gun? Were you always that scared out of your wits every time someone approached you to the point where you believed they intended to do you bodily harm?

To an extent, I agree.

However, if a bum approaches silently from behind you in the dark, I think it's wise to assume his intentions may not be benign. If he's legit, he'll announce his presence rather than wait for you to maybe turn around to notice his advance.

Both of my brothers are LEOs. Both have mentioned that BGs love to try muggings when you're either loading or unloading your vehicle. Your attention is focused on your task and both hands are occupied.

Just sayin'...

[Coyote Hitman]

[/COLOR]

Yup, here we are again with ANOTHER real world scenario. At this point I'm looking upwards and saying "okay, enough, let someone else have a bit of experience okay!?!"

Do these "incidents" happen to you often? If so, it is a pretty good indicator that you are not reacting normally to everyday encounters.

Sunday evening. I'm coming home from Wal-Mart just after it has started to get dark and as I'm pulling into the carport I notice some guy walking down on the golf course past my house. This is, of course, not unusual at all, a lot of people shortcut over that section of the course.

Ok, we have established there is nothing unusual at first. The man is described as "some guy" nothing unusual about him being noted. Later, he is painted as a disheveled vagabond. I would presume his looks did not change throughout the encounter, so why did he go from ordinary to unusual?

I pull in, shut the vehicle off, and get out. I look around (as is my habit) and see nothing so I move to the back and open the rear door and start to reach in for the groceries when I see movement out of the corner of my eye so I straighten up to see what it is. [COLOR="red"]That same guy from the golf course is now just off the back corner of the jeep looking at me and moving towards me.[/COLOR

OK, so he is about 5 feet away "and closing" on you. It would take you longer to perceive and react than it would for him to reach you, especially if his intentions were ill. Point blank, you would have been bought and paid for in two seconds. Another argument that this guy was not a threat.

Here I am, just after dark, nobody else around that I can see or hear, boxed in between the jeep and the wall of the carport, with the car door open behind me so I can't even freakin' back up and this big, really scruffy looking, guy closing in on me with his hands out.

Ordinary guy is now a big scruffy looking guy. OK. His hands are out and he is closing in on you. Again, if this were true and you accurately described your surroundings and scenario, you would have been bought and paid for before you could have uttered a word.

Meanwhile, my brain can't seem to decide if I need to finish a draw-down on the guy or try to crawl into the back seat of the jeep (a Cherokee SUV) and lock the door before he can get to me (the momentary mental paralysis probably lasted a split second but felt like an hour and was NOT a fun time )

What legal justification do you have to "draw down" on the guy. Do you have legal justification to shoot? Do you point a weapon at anything you are not ready and willing to destroy? Are you a cowboy, Rambo, an internet warrior?

FORTUNATELY he stopped and backed right up (I don't know if he saw the gun or not) and started saying "sorry, sorry man, I just saw your big yard and wanted to let you know that I'm for hire to rake leaves or clean gutters or anything like that".

Fortunately? Fortunate because you would have made him pay...and pay dearly.

[QUOTE]So shortly after he was gone the little old lady across the street pokes her head out of her front door and asks me if everything is okay (she heard me yell and was watching everything). I say yes and she tells me that same guy was over in her yard earlier and gave her the same "handyman" line.[/QUOTE]

OK, so this old lady scares him off by threatening to call the police (as indicated somewhere in this thread), he returns to the same spot with the same story. Doesn't sound like an ill intentioned person, sounds more like someone who has nothing to worry about.

Below is a drawing of how I was boxed in. (sorry for the crude drawing).

You took time to draw out this scenario and ask total strangers for advice. Some of these strangers may be big, scruffy, disheveled looking guys who also look ordinary prior to speaking to you.

I say very well done.

SA is what made you safest...

Nicely done.

I say good job, glad it didn't escalate.

ZeSpectre, I think you handled it fine.

You seemed to keep your cool for it all happening very fast. Glad everything turned out ok..

Here are six folks you can hope serve as jury members at your trial.

NOW before anyone gets on a high horse or soap box and mounts a tinfoil hat wearing attack...I am only doing what any prosecutor or civil attorney would do, albeit they could do much better. It would not be difficult to paint you as a trigger happy Rambo type who is looking for a reason, any reason, to bust a cap. A good prosecutor or civil attorney would eat you alive and turn your defense blanket into a leaky seine. Perhaps realizing that will prevent these "incidents" from occurring as often.

My critique: you acted a little paranoid.

When reading the OP, I could only picture Vern from the movie Stand By Me when he was standing guard with the pistol while the others slept. Scared witless, he pointed a gun at every noise he heard.

Hope you don't get yourself in trouble someday.

[TailGator]

I was trying to stay out of this one, but some of you need to go back to the original post. When OP was surprised in his own carport by the close approach of someone by whom he felt threatened, he ordered the person out of his house (if we may consider his carport a part of his house - if it was a an enclosed garage instead of a carport there would be no debate). That was the end of it. He didn't draw, didn't fire, didn't brandish. He turned his hip so that the weapon would be more accessible to him than to the other guy should he be attacked, and he unsnapped the retention device on his holster so he would have access to his weapon if he needed it. What alternatives do you propose to giving the person a verbal warning and preparing for a possible escalation? Should he have not even noticed the guy? Not acknowledge him? Invited him inside for a cookie? All OP did was display situational awareness.

Do we support licensed concealed carry or not? This was a responsible non-use of his weapon.

[hogdogs]

I am not in any popularity contests so I may come across a bit crass (understatement) to those that invite themselves into my personal space, the size of which varies due to situation and location. I do not carry a firearm but the buck 110 gets covered real easy and if my warnings are not heeded immediately when I am on my property or in my vehicle I will quickly draw a weapon if I feel threatened.
Brent

[sharpshot71]

Try this scenerio out. It is just starting to get dark out, you turn around and there is a strange man(ordinary or disheveled) 5 ft away and still moving towards you. He gives you a BS line about wanting to clean your gutters. What do you do? Even the skeptics on here would probably draw your gun.

Move that out to your garage/carport/shop/whatever. What is the difference. A bigger door? Because its open?

The bottom line is, the guy was two steps away still moving towards him after dark in his own garage without making any attempt to get his attention.

Either the guy was really dumb, or had bad intentions. That is two more steps and he sticks a knife tip to your back and says "give me your cell phone, wallet and keys to this here vehicle."

Lets put two different people in this scenerio, the OP, and the skeptics.

First the OP,

Guys sneaks up to within 5 feet, OP turns his hip, unsnaps his holster, and confronts the guy.

Possibility one,
He had no bad intentions, just down on his luck and he wants to rake leaves, OP says he is not interested and asks him to leave. No harm done to either party.

Possibility two,
He pulls a knife and threatens him, steps within striking distance, OP draws on the guy and he runs away. Whew, that was close.


Now for the skeptic.
Guys sneaks up to within 5 feet,

Skeptic, "Hello sir, what can I do for you on this fine evening?"

Possibility one,
guy, "I was just wondering if you needed any leaves raked sir"
Skeptic, " No I don't, thank you stopping by tho. Would you like a key to my house in case you are in the neighborhood and need a place to sleep?"
guy was harmless...

Possibility two,
Newscaster, " Tonight the story of a man named Skeptic who was brutally murderded in his own carport, and his family in the house. Police believe Skeptic went to shake the murderers hand and they guy killed him and his family with a knife.


Now I know, there are many possible scenerios between those, but you get the idea.

Possibility one had the same outcome for both parties.

Which guy would you rather be in possibility two?

Did the guy mean any harm? maybe, maybe not. what if he did?

[ZeSpectre]

Coyote Hitman, that's quite a post.
Discussion of how things work is why I post in the first place so here we go, though before I start I want to point out to you (and others) that my replies are all in the spirit of a good debate and discussion of tactics, good choices, and bad choices, so that we all can learn (myself included).

If I'm not taking this stuff personally then nobody else should either.

That said...

Do these "incidents" happen to you often? If so, it is a pretty good indicator that you are not reacting normally to everyday encounters.

A quick search here would answer your question. The area where I live has had a string of incidents over the past year or so because some folks think a big dark golf course is the perfect place to run after committing an assault, mugging, or theft, or to deal drugs, bang a hooker (and then assault her when she wants payment), commit vandalism, and so forth. A few of these incidents have spilled over onto my property. Working closely with local law enforcement we've curtailed things pretty severely but it still seems like we have been getting more than our fair share of shady behavior happening just recently. Were I in a court of law I have plenty of documentation (police arrest reports) to demonstrate just cause for caution with strangers coming onto my property from the golf course after dark.

Ok, we have established there is nothing unusual at first. The man is described as "some guy" nothing unusual about him being noted. Later, he is painted as a disheveled vagabond. I would presume his looks did not change throughout the encounter, so why did he go from ordinary to unusual?

The simple answer is distance. When I first saw him (in low light) he was probably 40 feet away. When he got too close I was able to get a much better look at him.

OK, so he is about 5 feet away "and closing" on you. It would take you longer to perceive and react than it would for him to reach you, especially if his intentions were ill. Point blank, you would have been bought and paid for in two seconds. Another argument that this guy was not a threat.

I'm sorry, there is just too much speculation here for me to address.

Ordinary guy is now a big scruffy looking guy. OK. His hands are out and he is closing in on you. Again, if this were true and you accurately described your surroundings and scenario, you would have been bought and paid for before you could have uttered a word.

Already covered.

What legal justification do you have to "draw down" on the guy. Do you have legal justification to shoot?

The legal justification is "fear of incipient bodily harm", and if you don't understand why I might think that harm was about to happen then you haven't been reading the thread very carefully. The yardstick is "MMO" (Means, Motive, Opportunity).

Do you point a weapon at anything you are not ready and willing to destroy? Are you a cowboy, Rambo, an internet warrior?

Obviously not since I never actually unholstered, but thanks for the yellow journalism.

Fortunately? Fortunate because you would have made him pay...and pay dearly.

I'm saying fortunately because the absolute LAST thing I want to do is harm another person and then have to deal with the can o' worms that opens up.

OK, so this old lady scares him off by threatening to call the police (as indicated somewhere in this thread), he returns to the same spot with the same story. Doesn't sound like an ill intentioned person, sounds more like someone who has nothing to worry about.

Possibly so, but without a time machine I had no way of knowing that anyone had a previous interaction with this person. Also, even with the benefit of hindsight and review I am still of the opinion that the "approach" was extremely suspect.

You took time to draw out this scenario and ask total strangers for advice. Some of these strangers may be big, scruffy, disheveled looking guys who also look ordinary prior to speaking to you.

I don't think I understand your point.

My critique: you acted a little paranoid.

Your opinion is noted and I appreciate that you took the time to write a critique.

[musher]

It occurs to me that most of the criticism of ZeSpectre's account makes the assumption that the stranger was in fact harmless. It's not clear to me how anyone could make that judgement one way or the other. The fact that the stranger simply left w/o argument doesn't prove one way or the other his original intentions. He could have been harmless, or ZeSpectre could have failed the interview. No way to tell really.

It's pretty clear that ZeSpectre was startled and alarmed by the sudden appearance of this person and his inability to retreat from him. Whether or not the stranger was in fact dangerous, the possibility certainly exists that he was.

Anyone would be alarmed to be cornered by a stranger. This isn't 'over the top', 'excessively paranoid', 'easily frightened' or any of the other insinuations made by some. People are wired to recognize some things as inherently hazardous. Being cornered in the dark by a stranger on your property with no line of retreat qualifies as one of those things regardless of the stranger's actual intentions.

Coping with the adrenaline dump and managing the interaction without getting too aggressive had to be a challenge given the tight quarters. Seems to me it was handled just right. ZeSpectre communicated his discomfort to the stranger while simultaneously preparing for things to escalate.

Stranger backed off, ZeSpectre stood down. Had the stranger continued to approach, his intentions would have been confirmed and ZeSpectre would have had some chance to stay ahead of him. I really can't see what can be faulted about his actions here.

[MLeake]

... ZeSpectre is too polite to say it, so I will:

Go someplace else to fling insults. Critiques are welcome. Name-calling isn't.

Also, please note that the LEO's who have responded to the thread all have sided with ZeSpectre's interpretation of events.

That doesn't mean the man who approached ZeSpectre had ill intent, but it does mean that it many cases, that's exactly how a mugger's approach is made.

I do notice that you, and a few others who've criticized ZeSpectre, still haven't explained away why a man would approach somebody, on private property, after dark, without saying a word.

I can't recall having a stranger approach me on my property - this does not include door to door salesmen, ringing a doorbell, we are talking about people approaching while you are in your yard or driveway and in plain sight - without first waving and saying something to make me aware of their presence while they were still off my property and at a socially acceptable distance.

And that's in daylight.

Please give one good reason why an "innocent" person should effectively sneak up behind the homeowner, saying nothing to give away the fact that he's there until the homeowner has turned and obviously sighted him?