What are the laws concerning using a Shotgun for store defense?

C0untZer0 · August 31, 2011, 09:58 AM

I remember a thread a long time ago about the shoot out in an Orlando video gaming parlor that Florida or Orlando law limited what security gaurds could use as weapons.

Is it generally against the law in most states to keep a shotgun in store for defending against robbers?

Jim March · August 31, 2011, 10:20 AM

Most states, no. In FL the "security guard rules" are more likely something the guard company put in to limit their legal liability - same reason they often limit the guards to 38Spl in a 357 gun. IF the limits are found in the law, they're likely only applicable to guards.

But in the case of, say, a family-run convenience store with guns owned by and used by family members and employees, it's basically anything goes in most states. Probably up to NFA-rules stuff if they have the paperwork (full-auto, short-barrel shotguns, etc...yeah, you CAN press that sort of thing into defensive duty, although it's not very smart because the wrong DA might try and seriously twist a jury around over it).

MLeake · August 31, 2011, 10:36 AM

Generally speaking, lawful use of deadly force is lawful use of deadly force. The type of weapon should not be a factor, though in some jurisdictions it has been presented as one.

But C0untZer0, you are conflating two separate issues.

Florida has restrictions on the types and calibers of firearms that security guards and private investigators can carry, while working. CCW permits do not supercede those rules.

For instance, with my Florida permit, I can conceal a virtually unlimited array of weapons, so long as I can legally own them. (Some states specify handguns; Florida does not.)

But, if I wanted to get licensed as a PI in Florida, I'd be limited to revolvers in .38 or .357, but carrying .38 ammo; or autos in 9mm (and I believe .380), while I was working.

After work, I could carry my .45's to my heart's content, but not while working under the auspices of the PI license.

Same concept for security guards.

Has no bearing at all on what you, as a private individual, could use.

C0untZer0 · August 31, 2011, 10:48 AM

^ So... in Florida in the case of a store owner who hires a security gaurd...

As a store owner - the owner would be allowed to keep a shotgun on his property... The owner could employ a shotgun, but his security gaurd (while working) would be limited to .380, 38 spl or 9mm.

Other employees - if work rules allow having a firearm at work, would be able to use anything that their CCW permit would allow - meaning it would have to be something concealable, but mot limited to 380, 38 spl, 9mm.

Brian Pfleuger · August 31, 2011, 10:52 AM

There's a quite famous instance of a Florida gun shop owner defending his store using multiple full-auto weapons. No charges were pressed, as I recall, or at least none stuck. He did kill one of the BGs who tried to run him down with a car.

MLeake · August 31, 2011, 11:55 AM

C0untZer0, I am not sure what weapons are ok for security guards; I know there is a list. I did check the PI list for a friend who was considering a move, a few years back.

Just to clarify.

Don P · August 31, 2011, 12:19 PM

Working formerly for Loomis the "state" has set up what firearms can be carried. 357/38 spl loaded "ONLY WITH 38 spl"
Semi-auto 9 mm. State law
Private security guards would have to comply with state law regarding what type/caliber they carry. The state is the one issuing the class "D" and class "G" license for armed security guards.

chack · August 31, 2011, 01:19 PM

Quote:

There's a quite famous instance of a Florida gun shop owner defending his store using multiple full-auto weapons. No charges were pressed, as I recall, or at least none stuck. He did kill one of the BGs who tried to run him down with a car.

Harry Beckwith. He passed away about 5 years ago but the new owners of his shop kept his name on it. All thuis occurred just outside of Gainesville in Alachua Fl, one of the most liberal and far left regions in the state. No charges were filed or reportedly even considered.

ALOT of old school deputies hung out there frequently and made frequent use of his indoor range. being friendly with the cops is good insurance.

federali · August 31, 2011, 04:11 PM

Many posters here are entirely correct in that the state may specify what a security guard may carry. Don't know if they still do but here in NY, armored car personnel also carried pump action shotguns although I don't know of a single case in which one was ever deployed.

Homeowners and store owners can have access to pretty much anything that's legal for them to possess in their state or city of residence. In NYC, semi-auto shotguns are prohibited and all long guns must be registered. Stay within the law, whether you agree with it or not, and you eliminate one avenue of legal attack against you. And, please don't be one of those hayseeds who loads his shotshells with rock salt.

TexasFats · September 1, 2011, 05:57 PM

The short answer is that it depends on the specific laws of your state. Internet opinions might be wrong or might be correct in some other state but not in yours. See a lawyer.

August 31, 2011, 09:58 AM	#1
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	What are the laws concerning using a Shotgun for store defense? I remember a thread a long time ago about the shoot out in an Orlando video gaming parlor that Florida or Orlando law limited what security gaurds could use as weapons. Is it generally against the law in most states to keep a shotgun in store for defending against robbers?

August 31, 2011, 10:20 AM	#2
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Most states, no. In FL the "security guard rules" are more likely something the guard company put in to limit their legal liability - same reason they often limit the guards to 38Spl in a 357 gun. IF the limits are found in the law, they're likely only applicable to guards. But in the case of, say, a family-run convenience store with guns owned by and used by family members and employees, it's basically anything goes in most states. Probably up to NFA-rules stuff if they have the paperwork (full-auto, short-barrel shotguns, etc...yeah, you CAN press that sort of thing into defensive duty, although it's not very smart because the wrong DA might try and seriously twist a jury around over it). __________________ Jim March

August 31, 2011, 12:19 PM	#7
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Working formerly for Loomis the "state" has set up what firearms can be carried. 357/38 spl loaded "ONLY WITH 38 spl" Semi-auto 9 mm. State law Private security guards would have to comply with state law regarding what type/caliber they carry. The state is the one issuing the class "D" and class "G" license for armed security guards. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

August 31, 2011, 04:11 PM	#9
federali Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2011 Location: Nassau County NY Posts: 378	Many posters here are entirely correct in that the state may specify what a security guard may carry. Don't know if they still do but here in NY, armored car personnel also carried pump action shotguns although I don't know of a single case in which one was ever deployed. Homeowners and store owners can have access to pretty much anything that's legal for them to possess in their state or city of residence. In NYC, semi-auto shotguns are prohibited and all long guns must be registered. Stay within the law, whether you agree with it or not, and you eliminate one avenue of legal attack against you. And, please don't be one of those hayseeds who loads his shotshells with rock salt. __________________ Int'l Assoc. of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors

September 1, 2011, 05:57 PM	#10
TexasFats Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 130	The short answer is that it depends on the specific laws of your state. Internet opinions might be wrong or might be correct in some other state but not in yours. See a lawyer. __________________ Gun laws are designed to extend and solidify the power of an elite over a peasantry. Sauron lives, and his orc minions are on the march.

August 31, 2011, 10:36 AM	#3
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Generally speaking, lawful use of deadly force is lawful use of deadly force. The type of weapon should not be a factor, though in some jurisdictions it has been presented as one. But C0untZer0, you are conflating two separate issues. Florida has restrictions on the types and calibers of firearms that security guards and private investigators can carry, while working. CCW permits do not supercede those rules. For instance, with my Florida permit, I can conceal a virtually unlimited array of weapons, so long as I can legally own them. (Some states specify handguns; Florida does not.) But, if I wanted to get licensed as a PI in Florida, I'd be limited to revolvers in .38 or .357, but carrying .38 ammo; or autos in 9mm (and I believe .380), while I was working. After work, I could carry my .45's to my heart's content, but not while working under the auspices of the PI license. Same concept for security guards. Has no bearing at all on what you, as a private individual, could use.

August 31, 2011, 10:48 AM	#4
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	^ So... in Florida in the case of a store owner who hires a security gaurd... As a store owner - the owner would be allowed to keep a shotgun on his property... The owner could employ a shotgun, but his security gaurd (while working) would be limited to .380, 38 spl or 9mm. Other employees - if work rules allow having a firearm at work, would be able to use anything that their CCW permit would allow - meaning it would have to be something concealable, but mot limited to 380, 38 spl, 9mm.

August 31, 2011, 10:52 AM	#5
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	There's a quite famous instance of a Florida gun shop owner defending his store using multiple full-auto weapons. No charges were pressed, as I recall, or at least none stuck. He did kill one of the BGs who tried to run him down with a car.

August 31, 2011, 11:55 AM	#6
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	C0untZer0, I am not sure what weapons are ok for security guards; I know there is a list. I did check the PI list for a friend who was considering a move, a few years back. Just to clarify.