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Old April 19, 2013, 02:02 AM   #426
Derius_T
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So with all of the good favor we have had today, let me ask a question, why not have an open discussion about various pro-gun pieces of legislation we would like to see crafted and possibly passed, and have a few of our more brilliant minds take the best ideas and package them as several (as many as possible) pro-gun bills that we can all send to our representatives and suggest that they push them?

If we flood them with pro gun bills as someone suggested earlier, it would knock them onto the defensive when they are already off balanced and hurt by today's losses. Keeping them on the defensive, not leaving them time to craft other evil is a good thing, and we might get a few really good pro gun pieces passed in the press?

Thoughts?
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Old April 19, 2013, 07:31 AM   #427
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not leaving them time to craft other evil is a good thing
None of these proposals is new. Feinstein's been trying to get the Assault Weapons Ban renewed every year since 2004, and we've had Lautenberg and Schumer trying to close the so-called gunshow loophole for at least 8 years.

This legislation will continue to be proposed in the House and Senate. The only difference is that they had Sandy Hook as a catalyst this time.
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Old April 19, 2013, 07:55 AM   #428
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Sadly, they'll also be ready to pounce when the next horrific tragedy occurs that just so happens to involve a mad gunmen.

This is a fight that will go on perpetually I believe, that is until there is a ruling from the SCOTUS upholding the power for US citizens to RKBA
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Old April 19, 2013, 09:00 AM   #429
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It's happening right now Kimio. The Marathon bombing suspects have allegedly shot two officers, killing one and seriously wounding another, while also allegedly using and detonating more explosive devices in their attempt to evade capture.
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Old April 19, 2013, 09:06 AM   #430
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why not have an open discussion about various pro-gun pieces of legislation we would like to see crafted and possibly passed
Since we now have background checks, which we didn't have in 86 (FOPA86), and since there is now a 3 round burst version of the EBR's, why not reopen the NFA list to allow us to purchase and possess 3 round burst versions of the M16. That would be a gun bill I'd like to see pushed.
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Old April 19, 2013, 09:07 AM   #431
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It won't be long before there is a bill to ban pressure cookers.
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Old April 19, 2013, 09:10 AM   #432
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Since we now have background checks, which we didn't have in 86 (FOPA86), and since there is now a 3 round burst version of the EBR's, why not reopen the NFA list to allow us to purchase and possess 3 round burst versions of the M16. That would be a gun bill I'd like to see pushed.
I'm not against reopening the registry. I even see the allure of shooting one of those things once or twice. But I'm too cheap to "feed" one reliably. We all know the real cost of the shooting hobby is the ammunition.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:13 AM   #433
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With regard to Boston being used against gun rights, I think that could backfire, and will probably be a non-starter. 9-11 had a lot more Americans develop an interest in personal protection. If anything, I suspect this sort of incident (foreign terrorists) will work for, and not against, support by the public for self-defense rights.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:35 AM   #434
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It depends on how it's played out and advocated in the media. If the control advocates are more effective orators, we step backwards, if the pro-rights advocates, we'll see more owners.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:57 AM   #435
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Lucky for us, the controllers showed their true colors in a big way. While we need to stay on top of them, their inherent hubris is doing a lot of the work for us.
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Old April 19, 2013, 11:09 AM   #436
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We can't let our knowledge and bias get in the way. Sure there are some control advocates that make it pretty obvious. But how many of the John and Jane Q Public's out there cared enough about universal Background checks to READ the bill Senator Schumer drafted? But still care enough to be angry the ephemerally vague "universal background checks" failed?

One of the reasons I think Mr LaPierre has not been a good advocate for our side, is that I don't think he does this. Our advocates make just as grievous a mistake by assuming the general populace has the same level of knowledge on firearms as we do. They need to work harder to think like their audience, rather than their "constituents".
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Old April 19, 2013, 11:41 AM   #437
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One can criticize the NRA but here's a piece analyzing how their strategy was successful and probably will be for some time.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...won-90315.html

Basically, solid grass roots politics and identifying senators who need to avoid being stampeded (to save themselves electorally) won the day.

The 60 vote ploy - using the Cornyn threat of reciprocity - was clever, as Chuck Todd pointed out.

In the future a massacre and changing demographics are a risk and should be planned for.
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Old April 19, 2013, 11:47 AM   #438
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Actually I was just criticizing Mr. LaPierre, not the NRA- and on his performance, not his policies.
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Old April 19, 2013, 11:48 AM   #439
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I think this fits in here:

Am I completely off base in thinking that, since Heller, can't the NRA lay claim to being a Civil Rights Organization?

After all, they and the ACLU were in some agreement on this bill.

W.
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Old April 19, 2013, 11:54 AM   #440
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They already do. I'm not sure there's any legal benefit, requirements, or standing for being a civil rights organization though. Advocating the right of any group to do anything that may or may not be controversial, legal, illegal, or not yet recognized would be a civil rights organization. Unless someone can tell me otherwise, the phrase is a sound bite not a protected/enshrined class of advocacy groups.

Also remember, that because of legal regulations there are SEVERAL versions of the NRA. There's the NRA itself- the parent organization that conducts the safety classes, the public service announcements, and so on. There's also the NRA-ILA (Institute for Legislative Action) that does the lobbying, and possibly the judicial challenges. One of the reasons for keeping these separate both for us, and for them, is the tax exempt status of their donations.
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Old April 19, 2013, 12:04 PM   #441
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To continue my thought, we'd need a corporate lawyer to come in here and dazzle us with brilliance, or baffle us with BS on the finer points of a 501c and all that jazz. If you want to research on your own, a google search of NRA and 501c should get you started.

For us laymen, and I'm open to being corrected by one of you guys with the alphabet soup after your name, the NRA itself is more akin to the United States Power Squadron that teaches seamanship to maritime hobbyists, and could theoretically be involved in PSA's for lifejacket wearing after a rash of drowning accidents. Whereas the NRA-ILA would be more similar to the Brady Campaign, and probably the Violence Policy Center and Mayors against Illegal Guns.

In fact that search leads to here where the second post does what I assume to be a very concise job of explaining both the concept, and the various sub-organizations under the NRA name umbrella.
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Old April 19, 2013, 02:29 PM   #442
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With regard to Boston being used against gun rights, I think that could backfire, and will probably be a non-starter. 9-11 had a lot more Americans develop an interest in personal protection. If anything, I suspect this sort of incident (foreign terrorists) will work for, and not against, support by the public for self-defense rights.
During a local talk show today, a caller pointed out that those in Boston "barricaded" at home during the manhunt would feel more comfortable with a gun than without. The talk show host, a non-gun owner, agreed.
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Old April 19, 2013, 05:29 PM   #443
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Here is a great article by the Wall Street Journal that not only goes into the politics but has a decent, fair history as well:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...176449846.html
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Old April 19, 2013, 08:36 PM   #444
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Re: S.649: Reid's Base Gun Control Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
Here is a great article by the Wall Street Journal that not only goes into the politics but has a decent, fair history as well:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...176449846.html
Thanks for posting
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Old April 19, 2013, 09:27 PM   #445
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One can criticize the NRA but here's a piece analyzing how their strategy was successful and probably will be for some time.
Here's one outlining the rhetorical fallacies the gun-control lobby used.

Their greatest failure was hubris. They really bought into that 90% myth, and they thought they were inevitable and invulnerable. In the process, they fell back to the 1994 playbook and the associated arrogance. Look at Biden's "black helicopter" comments and all the political cartoons portraying us as knuckle-dragging hillbillies.

They didn't realize what a vast swath of the American populace they were insulting. After all, 90% of us support their agenda, right?
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Old April 19, 2013, 11:45 PM   #446
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Here's one outlining the rhetorical fallacies the gun-control lobby used.
I gave my assessment of the Giffords article, and what we can learn from it, here -- http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...1&postcount=19
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Old April 19, 2013, 11:57 PM   #447
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None of these proposals is new. Feinstein's been trying to get the Assault Weapons Ban renewed every year since 2004, and we've had Lautenberg and Schumer trying to close the so-called gunshow loophole for at least 8 years.

This legislation will continue to be proposed in the House and Senate. The only difference is that they had Sandy Hook as a catalyst this time.
Tom you are 100% right.

I have been thinking however more along the lines of what caused the problem we face now. When I was growing up we were taught about guns. We were taught how to use them properly, and safely. We learned the value of guns as tools, and we learned to respect them and to shoulder the responsibility that comes with using a gun. We learned to use them and not to fear them. The current crop of people who grew up hating and fearing guns are usually people who have no real idea of what they are, or what they can do. They get all of their information from tv or hollywood, from anti gun propaganda, or from unrealistic games and similar sources, so they fear them. Plus they get hammered relentlessly by the media as to the evil of guns, and never, ever see a positive side to owning one.

What I propose is education. What about pro gun legislation that offers gun safety and other courses starting in middle school? You teach them. Knowledge is power. People start to see from a young age that guns are simply tools that can at times be misused for evil intent, but that by themselves are just a tool to be used safely and responsibly, just like a hammer, knife, chainsaw, or getting behind the wheel of a car.

So many moved to cities and a way of life devoid of the need to hunt for food or to protect themselves, and because of that, grew up without the most basic education about guns. (I find it odd now that those same cities are the worst places to be without a gun, but that is another thread for another time.)

When they learn about guns, real honest information, the fear goes away, and so does the left's ability to spread lies about guns. Not to mention you introduce people to the "fun" factor of shooting sports, along with teaching them safety and responsibility. I find that some of the most avid anti gun folks, or some of the most fearful do to the lies or preconceived notions that they grew up with, have some of the biggest smiles you ever saw when introduced properly to just how fun it is to plink around with a .22 long rifle on a warm day.

We teach kids about cars before we alloow them to drive, because we know what cars can do in the hands of the unlearned. Do the same with guns. We propose classes in safety and such in schools, completely optional. We overcome the fear with knowledge. We offer classes and instruction to anyone of legal age who wants to learn.

As a piece of legislation, we could draft a bill providing for the classes to be mandatorily offered in all public schools, but optional to take. That way kids whose parents want them to participate would be assured of the availability at no extra cost, but those that didn't like it could exclude thier children with no penalty to the child. In exchange for these classes being made law as part of public school curriculum, we offer the anti-gunners some nugget to make them feel warm and fuzzy. (I have no idea as to what)

Present it as they do. What person would want their children to understand how to behave around, and handle a gun safely, in case they ever find themselves faced with needing or wanting to handle one? We cut down on ignorance, and thereby cut down on accidents caused by irresponsible or negligent use.

I am not forming my thoughts as well as I like tonight, but I hope you get the general idea. Maybe someone else could expand on the idea, or make it better? Present it as "for the children". Education is so important, and who would deny a child a chance to be properly educated?

There are many other pros to this line of thinking, and I suppose maybe some cons, but they allude me at the moment....
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Old April 20, 2013, 04:18 AM   #448
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The anti's are horrified to see a child being trained with a gun. Remember the incident in Texas (I think) where the picture of the child holding his birthday present (an AR) was posted on facebook and the next thing you know, child protective services are knocking on their door.

I could just imagine what would happen if some school tried to have classes in gun education with live fire exercises.

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Old April 20, 2013, 08:50 PM   #449
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There used to be shooting clubs in public schools that competed against other schools. I think they may still exist in some states, so I think if we used the right language, they would be hard pressed to deny children the right to education and safety regarding firearms.
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Old April 20, 2013, 09:02 PM   #450
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Iowa has Scholastic Trap teams. Scholastic Clay Target Program
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