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Old September 11, 2019, 08:48 PM   #51
briandg
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Since the 210 seems to be the biggest one available for the max, I believe that it would be better than the lighter ones but still not great. So, If we can get past the problems of getting a revolver in max, we are still holding a 210 grain bullet set at 1,600. The velocity I quoted was sourced from accurate by the site that I got it from. Accurate doesn't list it now, if they actually did.


This was listed as a contender load at 16 inches at a barrel maker's site.

https://matchgrademachine.com/encore...pment-results/
Quote:
225 Grain Sierra SBT Remington Case
25 Grains Lil’ Gun Seat O.A.L 2.365″
Remington 7 1/2 Primer Velocity: 2,028 @ 14′
100 Yards: .598″ 200 Yards: 1.871″ 300 Yards: 3.562″
Here's what accurate lists now for handguns, with other loads for contender. I don't know what this barrel length is.

Quote:
200 (L) CP WLNGC 20.9 1,542 2
Now, seriously, if we can get this 1,500 in a revolver at 200 grains, would it possibly be better than a 240 .44 magnum at 1,200 factory? I think that it might, but once we get past that, like I said earlier, the maximum can't hold a candle to the brutal .44 rounds, and it's nothing compared to the really big guns.

Yes, the 200 grain in a handgun for the maximum at 1,500 fps is approaching the 2,000 fps of the remington in a rifle. You're right, in context, that's pretty good drive getting there. I should have left that out. but when we screw around with all of the other thoughts that we can compare things to, such as the .500 smith, 300 grains at 2,000 fps eats them all alive.

The whole discussion is just a million bits of 'what if' and I just put some numbers there to think about. From the beginning the maximum seemed to be doomed, it wasn't a good idea. Now that we have all of the other alternatives, there's very little reason for it to exist.
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Old September 11, 2019, 11:06 PM   #52
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I don't know of any 16" revolvers. Not saying there aren't any, but they're certainly not common.

I'm willing to bet that no one who is using a handgun for bear self-defense would consider using one with a 16" barrel, certainly not a single shot like the Encore.

The Contender is another single-shot hunting-type handgun. Typical barrel lengths are 12" to 14" or so. Again, not a handgun or handgun barrel length anyone would choose for bear self-defense.

Keep in mind that some of those loads are not only being tested in what amount to rifles, they may be loaded so that they are too long for a .357Max revolver chamber.

In a repeating .357Max handgun, one that would be a fairly reasonable choice for bear self-defense, I think that 1600fps is pretty optimistic for a 210gr bullet. I'm thinking that 1500fps in a 7.5" revolver barrel with a 190gr bullet might be doable. But 30gr heavier and 100fps faster? A tall order.
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Old September 12, 2019, 12:55 AM   #53
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I think that 1600fps is pretty optimistic for a 210gr bullet. I'm thinking that 1500fps in a 7.5" revolver barrel with a 190gr bullet might be doable. But 30gr heavier and 100fps faster? A tall order.
In a .35 cal cartridge, out of a revolver, with a barrel length of say 8" or less, yes, its a tall order. In a .44Mag 1600fps from a 7.5" barrel is possible with a 200gr bullet.

Now, here's a question, why bother comparing the hottest possible (factory?) loads in .357 Max with the "factory 1200fps" .44 Mag loads which are NOT the hottest possible factory loads in that caliber?

Seems to me to be a bit like comparing a Maverick with a V8 (and yes they did make them) to a Mustang with a straight 6 engine. It simply not a valid comparison in many ways.
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Old September 12, 2019, 01:17 AM   #54
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Yup, edited my post to clarify things.
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Old September 12, 2019, 11:39 AM   #55
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I wasn't saying that it was a fair comparison between the strongest of one to the weakest of the other, I pretty clearly said that once you get past the bottom line of factory .44 the maximum was left in the dust.

I guess that part of the point that I was trying to make is that if we have co compare the most extreme measures of capability, the .357 maximum is just not the answer for bear protection, even if you could get one. Bear rounds for the .44 are ubiquitous. Too bad they can't be loaded with .38 special, since that seems to be one of the only benefits to the maximum. (other than it would probably be a good deer round.)

I do, however, like the idea of a custom made ruger 16" buntline and if I ever find one at the pawn shop I'm probably going to replace my current carry weapon with it. that doggy will get twenty inches of penetration in jelly nothing will. Well, maybe a pistol that would reach my knees might not be a great carry weapon.

https://news.guns.com/wp-content/upl...ntline-saa.jpg

(guns.com)

Oh, boy, wouldn't that just be too cool to have one in .454 casull? I'd draw that baby out at the local range, and everybody would be talking about how cool I am.
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Old September 12, 2019, 11:45 AM   #56
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Seems to me to be a bit like comparing a Maverick with a V8 (and yes they did make them) to a Mustang with a straight 6 engine. It simply not a valid comparison in many ways.
I saw a maverick with a V8 once. Back then I thought that it was one of the coolest things that I had ever seen, but I also thought that about the Opel GT. Times and minds change.

After the mustang II was released with a 302 V8, we essentially had a pinto with a V8. things don't change much.
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Old October 10, 2019, 07:43 PM   #57
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Looky here:

https://youtu.be/ALLt3xedlMU
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Old October 10, 2019, 09:25 PM   #58
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Get some bear spray!

Everyone I talked to in Alaska from park rangers to hunting guides to the guy behind the counter at the gun store said your gun is your second line of defense against bears. Spray is the first line.

For Bear Hunting I'd assume you'd want the most powerful gun you can shoot well.

Life is good.
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Old October 11, 2019, 06:10 AM   #59
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Did you notice the high wind and direction in that video?
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Old October 11, 2019, 06:56 AM   #60
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" .340 Weatherby Three hits....five 220-grain CoreLokts from his .300 H&H"

well, I would suggest none were good hits, making another posters point. Bears are not mythical or supernatural animals. Take out lungs/heart/brain and it will die. Quickly.

Expecting a bear to die from 300 super mags in the leg or other non-vital areas is just silly.
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Old October 24, 2019, 09:17 PM   #61
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I love the .357Max, but it's the wrong gun for your stated purpose. I can push 200gr GCLWNs at 1500fps, but that's from a 10.5" barrel, which I think would be a bit unwieldy in bear country.

Heck, I can get 240gr Keiths goin' 1200fps from my 5.5" .41Mag without breaking a sweat. Pleasant to shoot & very handy.

Of your 2 stated choices, I'd go with the .44Mag.
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Old October 25, 2019, 07:27 AM   #62
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But really...

The best big bear handgun protection is a rifle.
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Old November 15, 2019, 05:18 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by briandg View Post
I saw a maverick with a V8 once. Back then I thought that it was one of the coolest things that I had ever seen, but I also thought that about the Opel GT. Times and minds change.

After the mustang II was released with a 302 V8, we essentially had a pinto with a V8. things don't change much.
My mother had a Mustang II Ghia with a Boss 302 under the hood, and no it was not a "Pinto" and the Opel GT still is a cool car, back on topic, I would go with 44 mag or even 480 Ruger for that matter, both are far more ubiquitous over the 357 Max there OP.
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Old November 15, 2019, 07:29 AM   #64
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I take it then for the ram silhouette shooting it was meant to be from a rifle, not a revolver?
No, the 200 yard Rams are the last stage of the silhouette pistol matches.
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Old November 15, 2019, 11:04 AM   #65
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These threads are funny. It’s great to see people that have never shot a .357 Maximum, .44 magnum, and/or a bear chime in!

1. Have you ever shot a .357 Maximum? With a 10” barrel it’s the most punishing slap-your-hand, wear plugs and muffs, enormous painful fireball handgun I have owned. I found the .454 Casull much more pleasant to shoot.

2. Let’s assume you want portability to back up the high powered rifle so in short barrel portable handguns, the 10mm will not hurt as much when the bear shoves it up your butt. You friends will admire your .44 or big bore bear revolver but no one wants to shoot it more than once. NASA can find you from outer space if you light off a .357 Max after dusk from the fireball, and I can’t even imagine how one could hang on to a light weight Max.

3. If you want a “practical” gun, get a shotgun and a .22 pistol. Slugs, birdshot, plinking.. done. You can do it all.

4. When in bear country nothing beats knowing the animals, knowing terrain and situation, having plenty of trained and ready individuals looking out for each other in your party.

Ain’t no magic gun to shoot the sixgun right out of a bear’s paw. A polar bear is a thousand pounds of alpha predator. I’ve only seen two grizzly bear in my life, range about 2 miles. We turned around and got clear because our local guy said “two miles? They can be here in 6 minutes. Too close.” We went the other direction and still kept vigilant. But we didn’t even have bear spray and hiked the mountains many times.
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Old November 15, 2019, 12:27 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Prof Young View Post
Everyone I talked to in Alaska from park rangers to hunting guides to the guy behind the counter at the gun store said your gun is your second line of defense against bears. Spray is the first line.

For Bear Hunting I'd assume you'd want the most powerful gun you can shoot well.

Life is good.
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I talked to a Ranger up there and told me on the side that they are not allowed to encourage anyone to carry a firearm. And if you read any of their hints and tips to stay safe, while frolicking in bear country, none of them include you defending your life with a firearm. This is in line with their "not encouraging anyone to use a firearm or even have one" mentality. Seems negligent to me.

But if people want to train themselves to grab some pepper spray as a 900lb killer is closing in on them, so be it.
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Old November 15, 2019, 01:23 PM   #67
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I have no experience with bears as we don't have any where I live. But, the 44 magnum would be my choice, as it is a caliber that would, IMO, hold its own against a large bear with the proper load, and would consider a, bear minimum, no pun intended, in that situation. However, a 357 would be better than a club, or knife, and is definitely better than not having anything at all. But I do really believe that most people would actually choke during an actual bear charge at close range, and wouldn't be able to effectively use what ever weapon they had to stop that charge. But that is just my opinion.
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Old November 17, 2019, 06:55 AM   #68
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But I do really believe that most people would actually choke during an actual bear charge at close range, and wouldn't be able to effectively use what ever weapon they had to stop that charge. But that is just my opinion.
I understand that and agree. I have never been charged by a bear. Some years ago, my son and I were fishing our way up from Homer to Anchorage. At one stop along the way, we pulled to the side to make our way through about 100 yards of woods to the river....either the Kenai or the Russian, don't remember which. I do remember the walk along the path through the woods. We were unarmed. Encumbered by waders and rods, I thought to myself that if we happened upon a bear and the bear took issue with us....even with a gun, any kind of gun, we would be lucky to get a shot off. Very lucky. An aimed shot? That would be even luckier.
There was no bear. We fished and went our way.
I carry bear spray now. Have had no occasion to use it.

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Old November 17, 2019, 06:39 PM   #69
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Agree.. I bought the Glock 20 in 10mm just for back up in Bear & Wolf woods.
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Old November 19, 2019, 09:56 AM   #70
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Good Morning Jack O'Conner,

How do you know pepper spray is reliable deterrent?

As of this date, there has been no scientific testing to support pepper spray efficacy. It's far more marketing scheme than scientific. But then again, it would be impossible to create scientific protocol to test pepper spray.

If it were me, I'd go with a 1911A1 with 230 grain bullets. I could substitute a 4" .357 Mag loaded with 180 grain hard cast, but I'd rather have a 1911A1,

I used to own a 6" .44 Mag. I'd pay to see anyone accurately rapid fire 6 .44 Mag rounds. With standard factory rounds, .44 Mag recoil always jerked muzzle off target.

I'd rather hit a charging bear with 9 230 grain .45 Auto rounds, followed by 6 180 grain .357 Mag rounds than possibly one assured .44 Mag round.

There is a practical side of mean critter defense that is always neglected when discussing mean critter handguns. Always neglected are the very prominent facts of ease of carry, speed to battery (how fast one can get his handgun pointed at a threat), recoil mitigation (sight picture retention), and speed of reload.

There was no sight picture retention with a 6".44 Rem Mag. I bought one with the intent of hunting Rocking Mountain mule deer. After every shot, it was necessary to reacquire sight picture, a deadly predicament were sight picture a charging mean critter. After a lot of practice, I realized that I needed to dedicate a day a week to practice before I -hopefully- acquired skill to hunt big game with it. I didn't have time to dedicate to becoming proficient with it. Sold it w/no seller's remorse and I don't miss it.
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Old November 19, 2019, 11:17 AM   #71
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A 44 loaded with hard cast lead 325gr. Or a 45/70
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Old November 19, 2019, 12:15 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SATRP View Post
Good Morning Jack O'Conner,

How do you know pepper spray is reliable deterrent?

As of this date, there has been no scientific testing to support pepper spray efficacy. It's far more marketing scheme than scientific. But then again, it would be impossible to create scientific protocol to test pepper spray.

If it were me, I'd go with a 1911A1 with 230 grain bullets. I could substitute a 4" .357 Mag loaded with 180 grain hard cast, but I'd rather have a 1911A1,

I used to own a 6" .44 Mag. I'd pay to see anyone accurately rapid fire 6 .44 Mag rounds. With standard factory rounds, .44 Mag recoil always jerked muzzle off target.

I'd rather hit a charging bear with 9 230 grain .45 Auto rounds, followed by 6 180 grain .357 Mag rounds than possibly one assured .44 Mag round.

There is a practical side of mean critter defense that is always neglected when discussing mean critter handguns. Always neglected are the very prominent facts of ease of carry, speed to battery (how fast one can get his handgun pointed at a threat), recoil mitigation (sight picture retention), and speed of reload.

There was no sight picture retention with a 6".44 Rem Mag. I bought one with the intent of hunting Rocking Mountain mule deer. After every shot, it was necessary to reacquire sight picture, a deadly predicament were sight picture a charging mean critter. After a lot of practice, I realized that I needed to dedicate a day a week to practice before I -hopefully- acquired skill to hunt big game with it. I didn't have time to dedicate to becoming proficient with it. Sold it w/no seller's remorse and I don't miss it.
I'm not one of these Pepper Spray enthusiats but I do have several Counter Assault canisters. It will never be my first option if I find myself being charged.

I don't understand your confidence in 45 Auto. I have 45 Super HC, 10mm HC but I still rely on revolvers for giant creatures. 45 ACP might be good for a wolf or lion... but a big bear?... no way. I have some +P 45 Hardcast that might do the trick for a black bear, but that is not comparable to a big bear.

I can shoot 44 mag 305-330gr HC accurately and rapidly 3 at 15 yards and then 3 at 10 yards. As rapidly as a semi auto? No. But I train in those situations to look over the sights. You're only going to be relying on reflex if you are surprised in a close encounter. My groups are 6-8 or 6-10 inches center mass of a 15x20 target with no crosshairs or circles... just a piece of cardboard. My groups are the same with a 460V. I can get tighter groups if I take more time but that is not the point of the drill.

So what 45 Auto projectiles are you using?

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Old November 19, 2019, 01:45 PM   #73
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Hi American Man,

Fed 230 grain HST LE +P.

It isn't the .45 Auto cartridge alone that has guided my preference. It's the entire package: Springfield Armory TRP 1911-A1 .45 ACP, which has been flawless to date.

A 1911A1 has to be the easiest big bore handgun to carry. It is the fastest to battery of any big bore handgun I've carried. It's simple design makes it extremely reliable. When loaded with 230 grain +P ammo, I can rapidly fire it while keeping its muzzle on a threat. I can reload 8 more rounds within a few seconds or less.

The .45 Auto isn't in the same league as a .44 Rem Mag in terms of power. I could hunt everything in North America including the largest bears with a 16" barreled lever action rifle chambered for .44 Rem Mag.

From direct experience, a 6" Model 29 is a huge, heavy handgun. It's weight and length do not mitigate its awesome recoil. And I'm not recoil averse.

When confronted by any thread -bipedal or beast- it's crucial to get a handgun's muzzle pointed at a threat ASAP and ready to fire.

If the largest predators are killed every year by arrows leaving strings at ~300 FPS, a .45 Auto would be far more formidable.

A .357 Mag would be my first choice for wilderness survival due to its versatility. But for self-defense, it's hard to beat a good quality 1911A1.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz65kUSoXpL

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.or...d-preserve6320

Lots of accounts of the .45 Auto used successfully against mean critters.

BTW, I had thought about converting a 1911A1 to .45 Super. However, after analysis, I've concluded it would offer marginal if any benefit vis-a-vis a .45 Auto when loaded with 230 grain +P. But that's merely my opinion. It works for me. It might not work for others.

I'm considering buying a 3" .357 Mag revolver for wilderness survival. So far, I'm thinking I could make a TRP just as effective.

Another important factor: I know this borders on heresy, but a good quality semiauto is more reliable than a revolver. A double-action revolver has far more moving parts than a 1911A1. When a revolver fails, it's almost always catastrophic, meaning it becomes a throwing weapon. I can completely field strip a 1911A1 within a minute, but that's rarely necessary to return a malfunctioning semiauto to full functioning mode. However, carrying a spare firing pin is wise; however, I've never experienced a firing pin breakage.
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Old November 19, 2019, 01:55 PM   #74
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I cannot find scientific research on bear spray. Lots of anecdotal accounts of its efficacy, but nothing scientific.

My guess is it would be impossible to conduct scientific experimentation on wild bears. It's be impossible to control for all confounding factors isolating bear spray as causal of stopping bear charges. It would be impossible to replicate circumstances causing bears to charge. It would be almost impossible to compile a scientifically significant bear population. It might be less than almost impossible to assemble bears in control and variable groups.

I'd have no difficulty writing that there is no scientific evident of bear spray efficacy.

I do know that were a person to become disabled by bear spray, he'd become a bear's dinner.
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Old November 19, 2019, 06:18 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SATRP View Post
Hi American Man,

Fed 230 grain HST LE +P.

It isn't the .45 Auto cartridge alone that has guided my preference. It's the entire package: Springfield Armory TRP 1911-A1 .45 ACP, which has been flawless to date.

A 1911A1 has to be the easiest big bore handgun to carry. It is the fastest to battery of any big bore handgun I've carried. It's simple design makes it extremely reliable. When loaded with 230 grain +P ammo, I can rapidly fire it while keeping its muzzle on a threat. I can reload 8 more rounds within a few seconds or less.

The .45 Auto isn't in the same league as a .44 Rem Mag in terms of power. I could hunt everything in North America including the largest bears with a 16" barreled lever action rifle chambered for .44 Rem Mag.

From direct experience, a 6" Model 29 is a huge, heavy handgun. It's weight and length do not mitigate its awesome recoil. And I'm not recoil averse.

When confronted by any thread -bipedal or beast- it's crucial to get a handgun's muzzle pointed at a threat ASAP and ready to fire.

If the largest predators are killed every year by arrows leaving strings at ~300 FPS, a .45 Auto would be far more formidable.

A .357 Mag would be my first choice for wilderness survival due to its versatility. But for self-defense, it's hard to beat a good quality 1911A1.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz65kUSoXpL

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.or...d-preserve6320

Lots of accounts of the .45 Auto used successfully against mean critters.

BTW, I had thought about converting a 1911A1 to .45 Super. However, after analysis, I've concluded it would offer marginal if any benefit vis-a-vis a .45 Auto when loaded with 230 grain +P. But that's merely my opinion. It works for me. It might not work for others.

I'm considering buying a 3" .357 Mag revolver for wilderness survival. So far, I'm thinking I could make a TRP just as effective.

Another important factor: I know this borders on heresy, but a good quality semiauto is more reliable than a revolver. A double-action revolver has far more moving parts than a 1911A1. When a revolver fails, it's almost always catastrophic, meaning it becomes a throwing weapon. I can completely field strip a 1911A1 within a minute, but that's rarely necessary to return a malfunctioning semiauto to full functioning mode. However, carrying a spare firing pin is wise; however, I've never experienced a firing pin breakage.
I get your points. I have 45 HST as well and it is a great round and works great in all my 45s. But I have to ask if a grizzly or larger brown is what you are including in what you call beast or mean critter?

I get the arrow analogy, but that is really an ambush on the bear and not a surprise encounter with a charging bear. Are you familiar with how powerful and fast a grizzly is or are you talking about a black bear? And I mean no disrespect at all when I ask that question. I believe some people have just been pretty lucky out there. I know there are some stories out there of people taking down a grizzly with a 9mm and a 45 such as the story in your link. But being in the presence of one led me to believe my 44 was not enough.
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