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Old May 26, 2018, 08:24 AM   #26
Brutus
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A new conundrum, I will be shooting Extreme 124gr. 9mm plated flat points out of my first reloads. Out of 3 reloading manuals I get overall lengths varying from 1.165 to 1.260. Naturally I will do a plunk test when I get the pistol but it hasn't arrived yet and I wanted to get a jump on loading up for it.
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Old May 26, 2018, 09:41 AM   #27
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1.260 OAL for a 9mm from a manual? What manual are you using that provides that data since it exceeds the 1.169" max OAL for the 9mm Luger cartridge?

The accuracy results you found with your 9mm Luger pistols was nothing to do with the short powder column of the cartridge. It's about the gun and/or ammo. Custom Bullseye gun builders make 9mm pistols that equal 45 accuracy, and the 9mm might even be more accurate according to some. Your accuracy results are about your guns/ammo.

The best test of cartridge accuracy is to use a barrel fixture (take the barrel out of the gun and put it in a fixture), with multiple barrels and from different manufacturers, and many, many different loads. Even when using a Ransom Rest, you're having to deal with fit tolerances of the gun parts.
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Old May 26, 2018, 09:59 AM   #28
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The Ransom Rest registers on the frame, but the barrel in most 9 mm and 45 Auto pistol designs registers against the slide, where the sights are. For that reason, if the slide-to-frame fit is not tight, with those pistol designs you can sometimes shoot tighter groups by hand off bags. Here's a Goldcup group I shot off bags 34 years ago. 25 yards and 0.37" C-T-C. I don't think I've ever seen a 1911 Ransom Rest 25 yard group quite that small, but I've probably not used a Ransom Rest more than a dozen times, so it's not much of a sample. Nonetheless, the bags can reveal a lot.

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Old May 26, 2018, 11:30 AM   #29
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Since this post is about the 38 Super Dooper I didn't think I needed to elaborate that I'd be using the 9mm bullets in a 38 super. My bad.
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Old May 26, 2018, 07:37 PM   #30
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I do not know what modern commercial firearms mfgrs do for 38 Super chambers today.
I think most everyone recognizes the original headspace scheme of the semi-rim stopping against the hood is poor. The Nonte chamber headspacing on the case mouth is better.

Is the Nonte chamber the new standard,or do new guns

still used the rim? The Nonte is better for accuracy...or,better said,the old way can hurt accuracy
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Old May 26, 2018, 09:14 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
Since this post is about the 38 Super Dooper I didn't think I needed to elaborate that I'd be using the 9mm bullets in a 38 super. My bad.
Sorry. My bad.
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Old May 27, 2018, 06:16 AM   #32
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Not to veer off subject but regarding the short powder column, as stated I've owned a half a dozen 9's in my lifetime, Browning High Power, Beretta, Smith's, Sigs and now the CZ none of which provided stellar accuracy performance regardless of bullet/powder combination I tried.

Same held true for the 40S&W although I didn't put in nearly the effort with them, 1 Sig 229, 1 Beretta. Bought a 10mm and never looked back.
While I still have 3 9's as I think it's an adequate self defense round all those pistols bought for target shooting except the CZ85 have been traded off.
If you can provide me with a bullet/powder combination that will prove me wrong I'll be happy to eat crow.
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Old May 27, 2018, 12:05 PM   #33
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Brutus, suggest you wait until you get the gun before loading for it.
You are not going to get anything close to the SAAMI maximum OAL with a flatpointed bullet.

The "Nonte" chamber has been the standard for a good many years. I think Colt changed over in 1986 and were about the last. But SAAMI still shows the semi-rim headspace dimension and shoulderless chamber.
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Old May 27, 2018, 01:44 PM   #34
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Yeah I know, putting the cart before the horse but it's 93 degrees outside and I'm a cold weather person . Loaded up 100 rounds of .45ACP today probably going to do some .357's next but those shiny new 38 super dies and starline brass keep calling out to me.
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Old May 27, 2018, 07:23 PM   #35
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On short powder columns: If you look proportion,the 45 ACP is short.It can be very accurate.The 45 Colt is a longer powder column.A number of factors are at work,I admit.But lower load density makes accuracy more challenging in a 45 Colt.

I used to shoot a High Standard Olympic in 22 short.That gun made me look good!

IMO,there is no "out of balance" condition that would make 9mm inaccurate.

Maybe,the neck has to be somewhat thick for headspace. Tough to anneal just the neck.

How do your plated bullets fit the bore? How much neck tension does your expander ball provide? Is the case sizing the bullet?I have not seen great benefit in plated bullets,myself.I prefer harder cast.

The competition guys seem to like Montana Gold Bullets.They have a website.
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Old May 27, 2018, 08:06 PM   #36
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For accurate 9mm Luger guns do a search for David Sams and Jerry Keffer. They've built guns that shoot groups in the 1" range at 50 yards, and you might be able to find some of their data there as well. And check the Bullseye website for data, too: http://www.bullseyeforum.net/
http://www.samscustomgunworksusa.com/

Good powders for 9mm include Power Pistol, Silhouette, #7, N330, N340. Jacketed bullets get the best accuracy, and recommended ones are: Zero 115 and 125 conical JHP, Hornady 115 HAP, XTP, 125 HAP, 147 XTP. My 9mm likes the 125 HAPs, and several 115 JHP. It has shot a Zero 115 JHP (conical) powered with 5.0 gr Silhouette into less than 1" at 25 yards (20 shot group) from a Ransom Rest.

Not all guns, ammo or shooter are up to the task. If you can't get great accuracy, it's not because the cartridge is not capable. It has proven that it is.

9mm ammo reviews
https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/...cy-test.33938/
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ho...er-match-ammo/
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Old May 30, 2018, 01:26 PM   #37
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Hello Brutus, well you're in for some fun shooting and reloading the 38 Super. I've had multiple 38 Super Colts,Kimbers,and one STI, and have been reloading the Super since the '70s. Even did a little experimenting with Col. Cooper's "Super 9" (.223 cases trimmed to .900") back in he day. The Super is an easy cartridge to work with, whether loading low velocity plinking/target type ammunition or more energetic loads. I admit that most of my loading has been the more energetic stuff, or why bother? 9MM performance easily overlaps 38 Super, and is available everywhere at reasonable prices, in countless variations, etc. I no longer use the Remington 1 1/2 primers and prefer the CCI 500, or sometimes small rifle primers, for loading the Super and other higher pressure cartridges,i.e.,38 Super, 9MM, 38 Super Comp, 9X23 Winchester,etc. Some of the powders I've used are Unique, Herco, Power Pistol,Winchester 571,Blue Dot, AA-7 and AA-9. I've come to prefer the Accurate Arms powders because they flow through powder measures like water, which allows for very consistent loads. For the most energetic 38 Super loads, AA-9 has worked best for me. FWIW, I've not purchased any 38 Super cases for reloading for several years now, preferring the near-rimless Starline 38 Super Comp cases. As to shell holders, I've just used the same ones,whether RCBS or Dillon, for 9MM, 38 Super, 38 Super Comp and 9X23 Winchester. Enjoy your new Super.
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Old May 31, 2018, 06:24 AM   #38
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Having a heck of a time getting this project launched. First paperwork delays and the holiday delayed shipment, hopefully get it today. Then yesterday when I finally got some time to reload I discovered my brand new RCBS dies are sizing the cases undersize and leaving a distinct ring around the case about 7/16 from the rim. A call to RCBS was placed and the tech thinks the carbide insert was pressed in backwards. At any rate I'm dead in the water until the new dies show up probably Monday or Tuesday. By the way RCBS is a great company to work with. Wish Kimber would adapt their customer service philosophy.
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Old June 4, 2018, 06:49 PM   #39
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Talk about great customer service, got home today and there were two packages waiting for me one contained a new carbide sizing die and the other a complete new 3 die set. 45 years I've been dealing with RCBS, never had a problem with any of their equipment except for decapping pins. Probably have about two dozen rifle, pistol dies and I'm still using the same rock chucker press.
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Old June 14, 2018, 08:33 AM   #40
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I shoot Montana Gold 130gr FMJ .356 out of mine. Most factory ammo are 130gr
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Old July 9, 2018, 02:03 PM   #41
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Good to hear that RCBS is taking care of you. I used, I don't know how many sets, of RCBS dies in my RCBS Jr. press back in the day to reload for pistol and rifle. Used the little RCBS press for years, until the Dillon progressive presses became available. RCBS and Dillon are both excellent products IMHO.
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