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Old May 23, 2018, 06:40 PM   #26
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Yes, thank you FrankenMauser. The HKS speed loaders hang up the way you described on my 642, I will give the 5-stars a go.
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Old May 30, 2018, 09:23 PM   #27
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Without question the 327 is a more effective round. This is proven by gel tests. It's virtually impossible to find a 380 round that consistently BOTH penetrate 12" AND expand. I have a little Beretta Pico that I use for quick errands when I need something I can just toss in a pocket without much thought. I load it with Winchester 95 gr FMJ FN. I just don't really trust any JHP to get the job done in a 380.

At the same time, the 327 Federal Gold Dot loadings even out of 2-3" barrels rival the performance from modern 9mm loadings out of service length barrels.

The problem with 327 Federal is that ammo just isn't available for it and expensive. Other than that there is no question the 327 Federal LCR is a better option than a pocket 380 in terms of effectiveness. The 327 Federal barks quite a bit though so not everybody can handle it very easily.
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Old May 30, 2018, 11:03 PM   #28
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Midway just got the Speer Gold Dot .327 Fed Mag in stock again.
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Old May 31, 2018, 01:27 AM   #29
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At the same time, the 327 Federal Gold Dot loadings even out of 2-3" barrels rival the performance from modern 9mm loadings out of service length barrels.
It does better than that. Out of the LCR, the 115-grain gold dots have been chronographed at around 1250 fps. There is a lot of 9mm +p loaded with the same bullet weight that won't match that velocity from a full-sized gun.

Of course, price and availability are a real consideration for people looking to get into this fine caliber. We've seen similar problems with .41 magnum or even .357 Sig. The difference is that .327 Fed Mag offers great performance and increased capacity on small and easy to carry platforms like the LCR and SP101. The cutting edge of revolver technology might not be an exciting place for everyone but it is for me, so I pay my premium and try to keep several boxes ahead.
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Old May 31, 2018, 08:06 AM   #30
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Old May 31, 2018, 08:12 AM   #31
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"It does better than that. Out of the LCR, the 115-grain gold dots have been chronographed at around 1250 fps. There is a lot of 9mm +p loaded with the same bullet weight that won't match that velocity from a full-sized gun."

Speed's one thing, but it's not even remotely everything.

It's nothing if it doesn't have the required penetration to consistently reach vital structures in the body under even adverse conditions.

Any jello shots information on the round?
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Old May 31, 2018, 04:20 PM   #32
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Indeed.
Average penetration is 13-15" with the factory SD loads and AE 100 gr SP, from the 3" SP101.

Due to the disorganized nature of the sources that have done the testing, and Lucky Gunner's recent, inexplicable choice to remove all of their .327 Federal data from their site, it's far easier to let you do the search for yourself.
"327 Federal ballistic gel" works well. To sort a little more chaff from the wheat, adding "FBI" helps.
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Old May 31, 2018, 05:07 PM   #33
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A while back I shot my Glock 42 and my Ruger Single Seven side by side. It seemed to me then that the .380 and .32 H&R were very similar in hand. The .327 Mag was clearly a more powerful round in that very UNscientific comparison. So I'm reading this thread with some interest. I'm having trouble finding gel tests for .32 H&R to compare to .380 and .327. I lifted some information from Brass Fetcher's 10 percent gel tests. http://www.brassfetcher.com/

I chose to copy only the Hydra-Shok test in .380 to compare it to the similar .327 bullet.

.327 Mag
Speer Gold Dot 115 gr bullet impact velocity 1326 fps penetration 14.9 inches
Federal Hydra-Shok 85 gr bullet impact velocity 1304 fps penetration 12.3 inches

.380
Federal Hydra-Shok 90 gr bullet impact velocity 842 fps penetration 12.2 inches

So from those tests it looks like .327 with the heavier Speer round is the best performer. The two Hydra-Shoks are surprisingly close in penetration depths.

I also found this site http://gundata.org/bullet-database/
which apparently just uses math to compare various calibers and loads. If I understand them correctly, these averages are across all the known loads for a particular caliber.
They publish this:

.32 H&R Average FPS: 998
Average Energy: 197
Average Gr: 89
Recoil: 0.42
Power Rank: 1.78 of 7

.380 Average FPS: 980
Average Energy: 194
Average Gr: 91
Recoil: 0.41
Power Rank: 1.78 of 7

.327 Average FPS: 1427
Average Energy: 452
Average Gr: 100
Recoil: 0.67
Power Rank: 2.86 of 7

While those results are averages of averages, it does look like .32 H&R and .380 perform closely, while .327 is faster and more energetic. Too bad Gun Data didn't include penetration averages.

I'm not sure what it all means. Just adding some grist.
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Old May 31, 2018, 05:35 PM   #34
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I'd go with the .380 if I still carried one. But with 9mm coming practically in the same size/ weight package I did not see the point. The wife likes the micro .380 though. I prefer that she prefer the 380 as well. Ammo is roughly average 1/5 the price and easy to find everywhere.

$1 rd avg vs $.17 = much cheaper practice time.
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Old May 31, 2018, 07:03 PM   #35
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Cosmodragoon. I was referring to actual expansion and penetration numbers. Not just energy levels. You see, the 327 federal is starting at .312" diameter so it takes a little more effort to get it to expand like a 9mm loading. That is what I meant. You can carry a 327 snubby and get the same performance of a 9mm out of a service size pistol. That is what I meant. While as you are not getting that level of performance from a little Micro 9. Ammoquest tested a whole bunch of 9mm loadings out of a 3" barrel and most loadings were either failing to expand consistently or staying below .500" expansion through denim. Not really all that much better than a 380 frankly. I don't really view the micro 9s as pocket pistols. I prefer a 380 or a hammerless snub revolver. While the micro 9s and snub revolvers are roughly the same size, I've generally found hammerless snub revolvers much easier to draw since they have a smooth tapered transition from the grip to the rear sight while sem-auto pistols have the rear part of the slide that serves as a hook that tends to catch on your pocket when drawing. The pocket 380s are small enough to overcome that. I find the micro 9s to be more of an IWB belt pistol and not really all that practical for pocket carry.

I agree. The 327 is a fantastic round and I would own one of there was better ammo availability. People are just too reluctant to switch to other chamberings. The 327 absolutely smokes the 38 in performance and you get an extra round. It's so practical yet the market has been very lukewarm to respond to it.
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Old May 31, 2018, 11:45 PM   #36
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I actually haven't seen much in the way of gel tests for various rounds in .327 Federal. I know they consistently produce more dramatic results on water jugs than 9mm but I usually shoot single containers and I've never recovered one.

In comparing 115-grain loads in .327 and standard-pressure 9mm, even allowing the little LCR to face off against a service-sized nine, it is faster and skinnier. Yes, it will be starting out smaller but similar bullet constructions may expand more reliably with that speed difference. I'm not sure that adequate penetration would be a concern at those weights and speeds but the .327 Federal does have greater sectional density than the 9mm.

If you want to see a really good comparison of "mainstream" defensive ammo including .380, check out these charts (with pictures and linked videos) from Lucky Gunner:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/

It looks like there is a new series on .327 on YouTube. It is far from perfect but was certainly interesting to watch. His 3" SP101 was getting lower chronograph values for the 85-grain Hydra-Shok than some LCR tests I saw posted elsewhere. Even so, it opened up to just over half an inch at 1200 fps. I know water jugs aren't gel but they looked pretty good in the "meat target" too.

In the first video, testing starts around four minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYz2lVukLLQ

Here is the discount meat target. I'd love to see Paul Harrell do some .327 testing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc1Fvii_6So
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Old June 1, 2018, 01:12 AM   #37
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Paul's never going to get the money to buy a $500 Ruger .327 to test it a few times, then say the same stuff everyone else says about how there's not enough ammo variety out there and the price is too high.

I expect he would say something to the effect that ".327 does give you an extra round over .38/.357 and can shoot weaker ammo with felt recoil the same as a .22. Whether or not you believe that's worth the increased cost of ammo, difficulty of finding said ammo, and a smaller projectile... you be the judge."

I think .327 or really the .32 caliber in general is capable of getting the job done. .380 is very difficult for me to shoot well, .327 or .32 H&R in a 6 shot revolver will probably make hits at 25 yards boringly repeatable and I'd rather carry a boringly accurate snub revolver than an impossibly difficult to shoot well .380.
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Old June 1, 2018, 02:18 AM   #38
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Cosmo, believe me, my comment was not a knock on the 327. It was actually a compliment that the 327 out of a snub performs as good as a 9mm from a service sized gun. That's pretty remarkable. All that while getting one more round over 38 Spl.

I'm very familiar with Paul Harrell and love his videos.
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Old June 1, 2018, 02:52 AM   #39
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I've not concealed carried a revolver before, but I'm wondering between the 2 inch LCRx and a 3 inch LCRx, in regards to IWB/OWB, shoulder, etc. is there a difference between a 2 inch barrel or 3 inch barrel revolver when it comes to effectively drawing it or carrying it?

I focused a lot on the snub LCR because it's small enough it could be carried in the pocket, but my preference is a 3 inch because of better velocity and sight radius. Pachmyer makes grips for the LCR/LCRx that carry like a 2 finger grip, but when gripped, a tab pops out the bottom of the grip for the pinky. I was thinking of getting the 3 inch LCRx .327 when (more like if ) it comes out and putting those grips on it for better concealment.

So that's my drivling thought for this thread.
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Old June 1, 2018, 10:40 AM   #40
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"it's far easier to let you do the search for yourself."

Yeah, I think I'll just keep carrying my .38s...
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Old June 1, 2018, 01:48 PM   #41
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Old June 1, 2018, 08:23 PM   #42
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I considered getting a .327, but decided against it bcause of the cost of ammo. I'd have to commit to reloading in order to shoot a lot of it, and i have found (after doing some reloading ofr 38 spcl) that I simply do not have the time to reload very much.

Also, unlike the OP, I don't have issues shooting .380. Granted, I don't have an LCP, but I can shoot the foofoo out of .380 with my Bersa Thunder. I've done enough of it now that it's sorta second nature point and shoot.

So......my choice is .380.
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Old June 2, 2018, 12:20 AM   #43
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Quote:
I considered getting a .327, but decided against it bcause of the cost of ammo.
I've never understood this argument, and still don't.

Since buying my first .327 Federal revolver, the price of ammo has been roughly the same as .38 Special (let alone .357 Mag). ...And I've lived in two different states and shopped in dozens of shops in five different states since then.
I just don't get it.

I must be blind, isolated, lucky, or regionally blessed (even though I've also looked and priced the ammo in North Carolina).


That aside...
Since when was reloading a bad thing?
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Old June 2, 2018, 12:56 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankenMauser View Post
I've never understood this argument, and still don't.

Since buying my first .327 Federal revolver, the price of ammo has been roughly the same as .38 Special (let alone .357 Mag). ...And I've lived in two different states and shopped in dozens of shops in five different states since then.
I just don't get it.

I must be blind, isolated, lucky, or regionally blessed (even though I've also looked and priced the ammo in North Carolina).


That aside...
Since when was reloading a bad thing?
I agree with you Frank. Again, the price of JHP defense ammo .38 and .357 is at the least .80/round. For .327, it's about $1/round. For .38, one can get target/plinking ammo for around .25/round, but if we're looking for a cheaper, softer recoiling ammo, then in that case one can get .32 S&W Long for around .30/round.

These prices are indicative if you buy online. If people are (and they should be) buying online, then you can get .32 ammo for a good price. If people are shopping at Bobby Joe's sporting goods store, then yeah, you're likely not going to find .32 revolver ammo and if you do, you're probably not going to get it as cheaply as .38 is and Bobby Joe is probably going to laugh at you and call you a girl for buying .32 ammo when he checks you out at the register.
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Old June 2, 2018, 02:49 AM   #45
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Part of the problem is that there is no "normal" FMJ or LRN plinking ammo for .327 Federal. Oftentimes, the only ammo a store will have is premium defensive ammo. The American Eagle JSP, which is actually one of the hotter factory loads, is the closest thing at around fifty cents a pop. Keeping a gun fed with 327 Fed Mag requires a little more work than .38 special, 9mm, etc. The question is whether that little bit of extra work is worth it to you.
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Old June 2, 2018, 03:07 PM   #46
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I still don't see the 'extra work' argument. I understand that there are regional differences and every gun shop owner chooses what to carry, and what not to carry.
And I do believe that some people may have difficulty locating ammunition (especially if only looking at big box stores, or the ONE gun store they frequent).

...But my experience differs. Of the eight LGSs in my city, five carry .327 Federal AE ammo. Two carry SD loads.
At my previous location, in a large city 180 miles away, there were at least a dozen shops that stocked the AE ammo, some SD ammo, and some .32 H&R and/or .32 S&W Long.

Last week, I was in a tiny, isolated, backwoods town in Northern Idaho where the gas station was also the local taco stand, pet shop, ice cream shop, meat processor, and sporting goods store. They had AE 100 gr .327 Federal on the shelf. (Though, admittedly, it was quite expensive at $39 / box.)
...As did my favorite podunk 'one stop shop' gas station in a town with a population of 132 people, in the middle of Wyoming, last time I was there.

From my perspective, the only real oddity that still persists today is that most chain stores still don't carry .327 Federal, even if they sell the revolvers.
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Old June 2, 2018, 11:22 PM   #47
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FrankenMauser, there seems to be a lot of people who exclusively buy ammo at Walmart (or whatever chain) and a good number of those people view having to shop elsewhere as a lot of extra work. I know because following .327 posts here and elsewhere, they make up a good chunk of the naysayers.

As far as local shops, it depends on the shop. We all live in different places and visit different shops. Personally, I know at least two shops who don't stock it but will order it for you if you ask. I know at least three shops who only stock one or two types of .327 ammo. I've had lots of cases where I went into other shops, including while traveling, where they only had one choice and it was either Gold Dots or Hydra-Shoks.

It's not a big deal for me and it shouldn't be too bad for people who shop online or hunt for deals. Handloading is probably a game changer but I don't have any experience with it. Buy it or not, taking up .327 for defensive carry and committing to shooting it regularly does involve a little more work and a little more coin than .38 special or 9mm. As my EDC choice, I just accept it.
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Old June 3, 2018, 10:00 AM   #48
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I like revolvers, and often depend on my 3” GP100 357, as well as owning a Model 10 a Model 15, and Model 38.
So the 327 saga has interested me enough to click on threads about it.
I don’t see myself getting one at this point in my life. The 38spl and 357mag do everything I need them to do.
As far as ammo cost, while I do order ammo online often, I check the case at Walmart when I go there. A week ago, I bought a 100rd box of the old Remington SJHP 125gn 357 mag load for $50...that’s a round with real street credibility. Or, I could have bought one of my favorite 357 loads, the American Eagle 158gn JSP, which I enjoy shooting, and my revolver likes very much...for $26/50.
The 380 is also part of this discussion, so I will say that a P3AT is part of my daily kit. I also own a Beretta 84F, which I bought due to its low cost, being Israeli surplus. I didn’t consider it for serious use when I bought it...but shooting it has made me a believer. I load it with Underwood hot loaded XTP’s, and feel pretty well armed with it.
All that having been said, a 6 shot 3” LCRx would be a very attractive carry piece for me. I’d just have a hard time deciding what to sell in order to buy one.
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Old June 19, 2018, 04:59 PM   #49
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I find that revolvers just don't conceal as well as autoloaders, in equally sized handguns.
The cylinder is the problem.
It's like carrying a golf ball in your pocket.

So, I prefer a .380 pocket pistol.
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Old June 19, 2018, 05:35 PM   #50
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Quote:
I focused a lot on the snub LCR because it's small enough it could be carried in the pocket, but my preference is a 3 inch because of better velocity and sight radius.
I, too, prefer the 3" barrel on a compact revolver for concealed carry. A little less bark from the muzzle and a little more controllability for repeat shots in terms of slightly reduced recoil and a slightly longer sighting plane. The extra inch (as opposed to a 2" barrel) is pretty inconsequential when it comes to drawing the gun or hiding it.

Imo, the "ideal" carry concealed revolver would be an LCR, chambered in .327 Magnum with a 3" barrel (would that configuration still qualify as a snubbie?). For concealed carry, I would insist on having a revolver with an enclosed hammer.
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