Cutting into a safe.

BILLDAVE · March 10, 2009, 08:46 PM

Recently a family friend had thier home robbed with a Browning gun safe removed. The criminal has been caught and got seven years. However, he never returned the stolen merchandise or would tell where it is. Browning was called and they said that the only way to get into that safe was to use a hightech flamecutter and that the heat would ruin all papers, wood, jewlery, and even melt metal in guns. Browning also said that if returned they would like to send a representitive to inspect it. My question is, if Browning is correct why do guys still steal them. Word would get out and it would not be worth taking the safe. Do you think that is true, that all the goods would be ruined? Any thoughts? I think that a criminal could get into the safe if he had time.

Don H · March 10, 2009, 09:08 PM

There are other ways to cut into a safe than using a torch.

bp78 · March 10, 2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

they said that the only way to get into that safe was to use a hightech flamecutter and that the heat would ruin all papers, wood, jewlery, and even melt metal in guns.

They give their product too much credit I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOj...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uI48...eature=related
(while these may not be browning safes, they probably aren't that far off quality wise)

jen45acp · March 10, 2009, 09:20 PM

I have seen safes that had been opened using 3/16" abrasive cutting wheels. Approx. time spent to open a good safe was 45 minutes to 90 minutes. Approx. (3 to 4) 14" worn grinding wheels were left at the scenes. The best protection is still a safe but with added cameras in plain view and alarm systems with loud sirens.

BILLDAVE · March 10, 2009, 10:28 PM

Nice vids bp78. I had my doubts about Browning Corp. statments.

ar15chase · March 10, 2009, 10:31 PM

I would agree, Browning makes them sound almost inpenatrable. There is always more than one way to do anything. Just depends how hard you want to work at it.

TheManHimself · March 11, 2009, 08:00 AM

Criminals, like all animals, are less intelligent than human beings. There's no thought process going on about how difficult it will be to get into the safe, just the thought process that consists of "Guns to rob 7-11 with or sell for crack money? Mine Mine Mine!".

Brian Pfleuger · March 11, 2009, 09:27 AM

Those are interesting videos, to be sure, but not real telling.

It's kind of like asking Ford to do a quality review of a Chevy.

What kind of yahoo doesn't have the safe bolted down? That seems pretty basic.

"These two men used only the basic tools, a pry bar and a crow bar."

Umm, what else are they going to bring into your house? There aren't a lot of crooks with backpack style acetylene torches.

I should think that anyone wanting to drop a safe from 20 feet using a forklift would elicit at least A LITTLE suspicion. Once again, why isn't it bolted down? I worked in a store when I was younger that had a safe that would just fall open if it was tipped over. It was supposed to be bolted down.... like most anyone with a brain would do anyway.

The vast majority of burglars are there for the easy mark. They see a safe, they give a whack or two, they see that it's bolted down, they go on for easier loot.

It's usually not like in the movies where they cut the glass on your skylight and rappel down through your lasers, hovering over the display case with your bowling ball sized diamond, being careful not to make to much noise and set off the acoustic sensors, while they cut through the display glass with the ultra-silent laser glass-cutter.

Bottom Line? Yep, don't cheap out on your security. However, the safe you DID buy is better than the one you DIDN'T buy because you couldn't afford a "good one" and, for crying out loud, bolt the dang thing to the floor. mm, k?

kraigwy · March 11, 2009, 09:40 AM

There are other ways to get into a safe. Without damaging the contents inside.

Contact your local PD Bomb Squad, they can do it safely. I've done it, but its not a subject to be discussed on the internet.

Dustin0 · March 11, 2009, 09:45 AM

I have cut open cheaper safes with a cut wheel and grinder. It would open that Browning safe given enough time.

jmorris · March 11, 2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

There aren't a lot of crooks with backpack style acetylene torches.

There is at least one, the maggot that stole my set out of my truck box.

Back on topic, there many ways to get through steel. Some cool (relatively) and many hot methods. Most safes only have hard plate around the locking device. So entry from the front might not be the best choice.

It’s hard to believe that for $1000 they can make something impenetrable and $50,000 bank vaults have been breached with fairly common tools.

a1abdj · March 11, 2009, 12:33 PM

How can a Browning "Tech" come out to inspect it if nobody knows where it is? I should also point out that Browning isn't in the safe business, Pro Steel builds all of their safes. To my knowledge they only use local companies and do not fly out techs. I base this on the fact that I do most of their warranty work in the St. Louis area.

I wish I had a photo, but the local Bass Pro dropped a Browning/Pro Steel/Red Head gun safe off of their forklift the other day at the loading dock. The safe landed on one of those large yellow concrete poles used to keep the trucks from hitting the building. It split the safe open all the way from top to bottom, and it only fell about 3' before hitting the post.

I have never seen a gun safe torched open, as even most criminals realize there are easier ways. I can usually drill, scope, and open a gun safe in less than 10 minutes including the time it takes me to set everything up. Gun safes offer minimal security, and any manufacturer making stupid claims like this should be sued.

I've also never heard of the bomb squad being in the safe opening business. When the police do warrant openings they usually call a safe tech out to open the safe. The only time I've seen police/firefighters go hands on with a safe is when somebody is locked inside or there was some other emergency to warrant it.

MrSardonicus · March 11, 2009, 01:03 PM

+1 to what a1abdj said.
I handle warrantee work in my area for a number of gun safe mfgrs. I have opened a few containers post-burgal-attempt, and have never seen one "torched".
I also do contract work for the local PD, and Sheriff. My family has been doing locksmithing and safe-tech services in this are for 5 generations, and to my knowledge no one in any of the law enforcement agencies around here will touch a safe of any kind, they always call us.
Bolt down your safe, install it in such a way as to mitigate the useable area of leverage around the non-hinge sides, and if you feel the need add some form of electronic alarm or surveillance. ALL containers have inherent weaknesses which can and will be exploited.

partemisio · March 11, 2009, 02:18 PM

When I moved into a new house. There was a safe in it. I left it alone for a few months in case the owner wanted it. I came to the conclusion they were not coming back for it so I took a look inside. My air hammer made short work of it without messing up anything inside.

KSFreeman · March 11, 2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Browning was called and they said that the only way to get into that safe was to use a hightech flamecutter and that the heat would ruin all papers, wood, jewlery, and even melt metal in guns.

*Snicker*

There are many, many ways into a safe. Last crew I worked went in through the top.

Knock the safe over and beat on the corner with a sledgehammer (low tech). The corner pops up and they stick a pry bar in and peel it open like a tin of sardines.

JohnRaven · March 11, 2009, 04:36 PM

I laugh at all your primitive ways of 'opening' a safe. There are much easier ways into safes... It takes special tools, the know-how and the experience to open a safe without damaging it. But then again, if its a burglar just trying to get w/e is inside it, he wont care what damage he does to it

It is sad though, that all these big box stores sell these 'gun safes' and people actually buy them expecting to get a quality product.

They expect a $1000 safe to protect how many thousands of dollars of guns????

You can't spend $100 and expect it to protect $10,000... It just doesn't work like that... If you want a GOOD gun safe, you will pay for it...

MrSardonicus · March 11, 2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

They expect a $1000 safe to protect how many thousands of dollars of guns????

It's like that with everything...I have customers who build million dollar homes and then install $9.00 locks.
How good are the locks, doors, hinges, and jambs on your house? What is the quality of your windows? Do you have a security door, or bars on your windows? (none of which am I insisting you should. And not intended as an accusational question directed at any one person, merely intended to provoke thought)
I hear it all the time; "locks (or safes for that matter) are just to keep honest people honest. If the BG wants in, he's getting in."
If this is true, why even bother locking your house or safe or anything? The first line of defense against a BG even getting to your safe is keeping him/her out of your house. It's all just a false sense of security, right? NO!!! If you are truly interested in defending your home, your safe, your guns, your car etc. from unauthorized entry, consult a professional. You may have to lay down some cash, but it can be done. We have the technology if you have the $$.
When looking at securing anything one must evaluate which areas are weakest to attack, and then take steps to mitigate said weakness. Even if you decide not to spring for the most expensive and top of the line, with a little fore-thought, research and elbow grease one can send a message to prospective offenders that says "this here is a waste of your time, sonny. Move on."
One should not take for granted the self-aggrandizing claims of any company on behalf of it's own product, or rely solely on their claims of quality.

Ok, Ok, sorry about the rant.

So says one of the Fantastic Four...so says I: "Flame On!!"

:

Brian Pfleuger · March 11, 2009, 08:10 PM

Quote:

I have customers who build million dollar homes and then install $9.00 locks.

Cheaping out on locks is stupid, to be sure, but even the best locks only keep people of a certain determination level out. When I was a landlord I had someone break into one of my apartments. They literally kicked the door down. Shattered the door frame, broke the door almost in half. One of the responding city police started giving me a speech about "good locks", one of his fellow officers looked at me and said "Don't worry about that jackass, locks only keep honest people out."

Very much like a safe, actually very much like anything.

Better locks keep a more determined intruder out of your house, but not everyone.

Better safes keep a more determined burglar out out of the safe, but not everyone.

ktmbigfan · March 11, 2009, 08:17 PM

I'm no expert but I don't know how many criminals come expecting a
safe. In fact my friend just got robbed and they left the guns (no safe)
and stole a lap top and a bunch of movies ext... He only had a couple
long guns though. IMO anything you do to slow them down is good.

I'm haveing a hard time picturing 2 dudes with 4 foot pry bars going
at my safe even for 2 min like in the video. Those 2 guys knew what
they were doing. If you gave me and 5 of my friends pry bars I bet
we couldn't do it that fast. I like to think me and my friends are a
little smarter than the average crack head. But then again I bought
my safe at a big box store.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · March 11, 2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

In fact my friend just got robbed and they left the guns (no safe)
and stole a lap top and a bunch of movies ext...

Sounds like kids to me. FYI, not to nitpick, he was burglarized. Robbery occurs when you and the criminal are present at the crime scene (and the criminal may use force or a weapon [armed roberry]). Just so you know...my old man is a US Marshall...and I made the same mistake 20 years ago and I got a long, drawn out speech on the difference between roberry and burglary.

ktmbigfan · March 11, 2009, 09:39 PM

He was not home. Burglary it is sir.

ktmbigfan · March 11, 2009, 09:51 PM

I just remembered a friend of mines dad forgot his combo and had to call
a pro in to open it. The guy used a mag drill and it took him all of 10 min.

I don't know what brand of safe it was but I never knew the guy to
cheap out on anything and the safe was huge.

alloy · March 12, 2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

The guy used a mag drill and it took him all of 10 min.

Without damaging the goodies.

March 10, 2009, 08:46 PM	#1
BILLDAVE Junior member Join Date: September 17, 2006 Location: In the Mid-West Posts: 321	Cutting into a safe. Recently a family friend had thier home robbed with a Browning gun safe removed. The criminal has been caught and got seven years. However, he never returned the stolen merchandise or would tell where it is. Browning was called and they said that the only way to get into that safe was to use a hightech flamecutter and that the heat would ruin all papers, wood, jewlery, and even melt metal in guns. Browning also said that if returned they would like to send a representitive to inspect it. My question is, if Browning is correct why do guys still steal them. Word would get out and it would not be worth taking the safe. Do you think that is true, that all the goods would be ruined? Any thoughts? I think that a criminal could get into the safe if he had time.

March 10, 2009, 09:08 PM	#2
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	There are other ways to cut into a safe than using a torch. __________________ Don http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/forum/

March 10, 2009, 09:20 PM	#4
jen45acp Member Join Date: December 17, 2008 Location: Bluegrass of Kentucky Posts: 71	I have seen safes that had been opened using 3/16" abrasive cutting wheels. Approx. time spent to open a good safe was 45 minutes to 90 minutes. Approx. (3 to 4) 14" worn grinding wheels were left at the scenes. The best protection is still a safe but with added cameras in plain view and alarm systems with loud sirens. __________________ "Predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them" Thomas Jefferson

March 11, 2009, 09:27 AM	#8
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Those are interesting videos, to be sure, but not real telling. It's kind of like asking Ford to do a quality review of a Chevy. What kind of yahoo doesn't have the safe bolted down? That seems pretty basic. "These two men used only the basic tools, a pry bar and a crow bar." Umm, what else are they going to bring into your house? There aren't a lot of crooks with backpack style acetylene torches. I should think that anyone wanting to drop a safe from 20 feet using a forklift would elicit at least A LITTLE suspicion. Once again, why isn't it bolted down? I worked in a store when I was younger that had a safe that would just fall open if it was tipped over. It was supposed to be bolted down.... like most anyone with a brain would do anyway. The vast majority of burglars are there for the easy mark. They see a safe, they give a whack or two, they see that it's bolted down, they go on for easier loot. It's usually not like in the movies where they cut the glass on your skylight and rappel down through your lasers, hovering over the display case with your bowling ball sized diamond, being careful not to make to much noise and set off the acoustic sensors, while they cut through the display glass with the ultra-silent laser glass-cutter. Bottom Line? Yep, don't cheap out on your security. However, the safe you DID buy is better than the one you DIDN'T buy because you couldn't afford a "good one" and, for crying out loud, bolt the dang thing to the floor. mm, k? __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; March 11, 2009 at 09:43 AM.

March 11, 2009, 09:40 AM	#9
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	There are other ways to get into a safe. Without damaging the contents inside. Contact your local PD Bomb Squad, they can do it safely. I've done it, but its not a subject to be discussed on the internet. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

March 10, 2009, 10:28 PM	#5
BILLDAVE Junior member Join Date: September 17, 2006 Location: In the Mid-West Posts: 321	Nice vids bp78. I had my doubts about Browning Corp. statments.

March 10, 2009, 10:31 PM	#6
ar15chase Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2009 Location: Shallowater, Texas Posts: 444	I would agree, Browning makes them sound almost inpenatrable. There is always more than one way to do anything. Just depends how hard you want to work at it.

March 11, 2009, 08:00 AM	#7
TheManHimself Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2008 Posts: 730	Criminals, like all animals, are less intelligent than human beings. There's no thought process going on about how difficult it will be to get into the safe, just the thought process that consists of "Guns to rob 7-11 with or sell for crack money? Mine Mine Mine!".

March 11, 2009, 09:45 AM	#10
Dustin0 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2008 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 701	I have cut open cheaper safes with a cut wheel and grinder. It would open that Browning safe given enough time.

March 11, 2009, 12:33 PM	#12
a1abdj Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: St. Charles, MO Posts: 496	How can a Browning "Tech" come out to inspect it if nobody knows where it is? I should also point out that Browning isn't in the safe business, Pro Steel builds all of their safes. To my knowledge they only use local companies and do not fly out techs. I base this on the fact that I do most of their warranty work in the St. Louis area. I wish I had a photo, but the local Bass Pro dropped a Browning/Pro Steel/Red Head gun safe off of their forklift the other day at the loading dock. The safe landed on one of those large yellow concrete poles used to keep the trucks from hitting the building. It split the safe open all the way from top to bottom, and it only fell about 3' before hitting the post. I have never seen a gun safe torched open, as even most criminals realize there are easier ways. I can usually drill, scope, and open a gun safe in less than 10 minutes including the time it takes me to set everything up. Gun safes offer minimal security, and any manufacturer making stupid claims like this should be sued. I've also never heard of the bomb squad being in the safe opening business. When the police do warrant openings they usually call a safe tech out to open the safe. The only time I've seen police/firefighters go hands on with a safe is when somebody is locked inside or there was some other emergency to warrant it. __________________ www.zykansafe.com

March 11, 2009, 01:03 PM	#13
MrSardonicus Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2009 Location: Cody, WY Posts: 101	+1 to what a1abdj said. I handle warrantee work in my area for a number of gun safe mfgrs. I have opened a few containers post-burgal-attempt, and have never seen one "torched". I also do contract work for the local PD, and Sheriff. My family has been doing locksmithing and safe-tech services in this are for 5 generations, and to my knowledge no one in any of the law enforcement agencies around here will touch a safe of any kind, they always call us. Bolt down your safe, install it in such a way as to mitigate the useable area of leverage around the non-hinge sides, and if you feel the need add some form of electronic alarm or surveillance. ALL containers have inherent weaknesses which can and will be exploited. __________________ "I like my town with a little drop of poison. No body knows,...they're all lining up to go insane. I'm all alone. I've smoked my friends down to the filter; but I feel much cleaner after it rains..." Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.

March 11, 2009, 02:18 PM	#14
partemisio Member Join Date: March 3, 2009 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 65	When I moved into a new house. There was a safe in it. I left it alone for a few months in case the owner wanted it. I came to the conclusion they were not coming back for it so I took a look inside. My air hammer made short work of it without messing up anything inside.

March 11, 2009, 04:36 PM	#16
JohnRaven Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2008 Location: The Republic Posts: 131	I laugh at all your primitive ways of 'opening' a safe. There are much easier ways into safes... It takes special tools, the know-how and the experience to open a safe without damaging it. But then again, if its a burglar just trying to get w/e is inside it, he wont care what damage he does to it It is sad though, that all these big box stores sell these 'gun safes' and people actually buy them expecting to get a quality product. They expect a $1000 safe to protect how many thousands of dollars of guns???? You can't spend $100 and expect it to protect $10,000... It just doesn't work like that... If you want a GOOD gun safe, you will pay for it...

March 11, 2009, 08:17 PM	#19
ktmbigfan Member Join Date: April 13, 2006 Location: home of the other white meat Posts: 65	I'm no expert but I don't know how many criminals come expecting a safe. In fact my friend just got robbed and they left the guns (no safe) and stole a lap top and a bunch of movies ext... He only had a couple long guns though. IMO anything you do to slow them down is good. I'm haveing a hard time picturing 2 dudes with 4 foot pry bars going at my safe even for 2 min like in the video. Those 2 guys knew what they were doing. If you gave me and 5 of my friends pry bars I bet we couldn't do it that fast. I like to think me and my friends are a little smarter than the average crack head. But then again I bought my safe at a big box store.

March 11, 2009, 09:39 PM	#21
ktmbigfan Member Join Date: April 13, 2006 Location: home of the other white meat Posts: 65	He was not home. Burglary it is sir.

March 11, 2009, 09:51 PM	#22
ktmbigfan Member Join Date: April 13, 2006 Location: home of the other white meat Posts: 65	I just remembered a friend of mines dad forgot his combo and had to call a pro in to open it. The guy used a mag drill and it took him all of 10 min. I don't know what brand of safe it was but I never knew the guy to cheap out on anything and the safe was huge.