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Old December 24, 2018, 08:20 AM   #1
reynolds357
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"The World's strongest bolt action"

Just saw a commercial where Remington claims that the 700 is "the world's strongest bolt action." I wonder what they base that on? I don't see how it could be nearly as strong as the Mark V. I seem to vagely remember something about Roy proving the Mark V was much stronger. He subjected the Mark v to multiple 220k cup shots without action failure. I can't see how the 700 is that strong. (I am not a 700 or a Big Green hater.I own a safe full of them.)
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Old December 24, 2018, 10:00 AM   #2
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They probably were the strongest when introduced, so the claim has been an historic advertising statement. "Three rings of steel advertising."

For some reason, no companies are willing to blow up their rifles to prove that they failed at a higher pressure level than Remington. Apparently, no news of failure level is "good" news.
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Old December 24, 2018, 10:09 AM   #3
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If I am not mistaken, 220,000 cup that Roy went to for multiple shots with no failure exceeded the single shot failure point of the 700.
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Old December 24, 2018, 10:13 AM   #4
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For post war bolts I would guess that the Mark V is at or near the top of the list among mass produced actions.
A Japanese arisaka would probably at the top for ww2 Bolt rifles, I recall various wildcatters that used them for proof testing of their newest wizz bang rounds
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Old December 24, 2018, 11:48 AM   #5
Art Eatman
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Remington issued a press release back in 1948 or 1949 but I've been unable to find it via Google.

They did a comparison test with an 03, a Model 70, a 1917 Enfield and a 721.

A case full of 4064 and a 220-grain bullet.

The Springfield bolt locked up.

Okay, try two bullets. Model 70 locked up.

Now go for three: The Enfield bolt had to be beaten open with a 2x4.

The 721 survived four bullets without blowing up. IIRC, the bolt did not jam.

Basically, this proves that the push-feed can withstand higher chamber pressures than can the Mauser style.
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Old December 24, 2018, 12:25 PM   #6
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I own 4 Weatherby Mark V Magnums with 9 lug bolts. I also own a couple of Weatherby Vanguards with 2 lug bolts and I have a Rem 700.

I have a feeling that Rem is making that claim in a comparison against similar rifle actions. It is a strong action and probably as strong as the Weatherby Vanguard 2 lug, maybe stronger but their three rings of steel, in my opinion has a flaw and that's the separate recoil lug. Weatherby's all have an integral recoil lug.

If they're are making the same claim in a comparison to the Weatherby Mark V 9 lug or even the 6 lug action then I would think it to be pretty unbelievable. I know this isn't a true test but a simple weight test would tell you that the Mark V has far more mass than the Rem 700.
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Old December 24, 2018, 12:33 PM   #7
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Dick Casull designed a bolt action that would normally operate at standard caliber proof pressures. Problem was, you had to have his design of very nonstandard cases, too.

F. W. Mann had the Hamburg Rifle, so named because hamburger was all that it left of a woodchuck. Caliber .25 Krag, I believe. He said it would hold a load that would bulge any barrel available and a load that had broken a government pressure gauge. He said it positively took care of the primer, no backed out, pierced, or blown primers.
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Old December 24, 2018, 01:28 PM   #8
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The 700 is based on the '03 bolt action, which is based on the Mauser action, which we can all agree is a pretty good dang action! I've used hydraulic pressure to swell large impellers off of the shaft that have a .002" interference fit and its done with thick wall, but small overall OD tubing. I'd guess about 3/16" tubing. So think about that. We'd pump those lines up to 50,000- 60,000 PSI to swell that impeller up and it was done with tubing no bigger than 3/16" outside diameter. I guess I'd say that both the Weatherby and the Remington are both VERY strong.
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Old December 24, 2018, 01:39 PM   #9
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Well the Remington 700 is very strong but by no means the strongest.
The 2 strongest are the Weatherby Mk5 and the CZ 550. Another that is super strong is the Enfield m1914 and 1917. I remember reading a report (I think White Labs did it) that stated the American Enfields made by Winchester and Remington were the strongest bolt actions ever made inside the USA.
The strongest action Ackley ever tested was the 6.5 Jap Arasaka from WW2 which could not be blown up or stretched. Barrels could be blown in half in front of the receiver but the receiver came out just fine.

So no, the 700 is not the strongest. But it's plenty strong enough.

Personally I think it's a dead horse past a certain point.

The weak link in that chain is the brass case and if an action can hold a brass case with so much pressure inside it that it turns the brass in a semi-liquid, how is it helpful to make the action stronger?

I think bragging how a Mk5 is stronger then a 700 (which it is) Or the CZ550 (which it is) is like telling me that your dump truck is "better" to carry grandma home from the store ( because she weights 150 pounds) then my Chevy 1 ton pick-up.
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Old December 24, 2018, 02:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
I think bragging how a Mk5 is stronger then a 700 (which it is) Or the CZ550 (which it is) is like telling me that your dump truck is "better" to carry grandma home from the store ( because she weights 150 pounds) then my Chevy 1 ton pick-up.
The reason I brought it up is Remington is making the claim in their new tv ads.
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Old December 24, 2018, 02:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reynolds357 View Post
The reason I brought it up is Remington is making the claim in their new tv ads.
What's interesting is that Weatherby is also touting their three rings of steel and saying theirs is the strongest in the world. Weatherby has always been a company that has a pension for one upping the competition. When Nosler came out with their 26 (264) Weatherby came out with the 6.5-300. Maybe the new Remington organization is taking a chapter from the Weatherby play book. I hope so. I think it would be great. The 700 competition, as I see it, is the Weatherby Vanguard and the Howa 1500. Many are starting to see their potential with PTG now onboard and producing tooling for them. If Remington can market the new 700 correctly they just might take that market back. I love my Weatherby's but I have had a lifetime of appreciation for the 700 until recent years. I wish them all the best.

I don't know if you noticed or not but the Model 7 has changed significantly.
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Old December 24, 2018, 03:52 PM   #12
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The 700 is not based on any Mauser action beyond being a bolt-action system.

And Remington IS trying to get back to the quality levels they used to have.
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Old December 24, 2018, 04:23 PM   #13
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I think Bart B contended it was a Winchester 70 that was the strongest.

Reality is it makes no difference. They all do as intended.

Tika is so light it scares me (I mean really, that flimsy little bolt?) , I can only assume engineering and use of materials l over mass.

Isn't the 700 a long descended from the Model 30 aka 1917?
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Old December 24, 2018, 04:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
The 700 is based on the '03 bolt action, which is based on the Mauser action,
Only in the sense that every dual opposed lug front locking action is based on the Mauser.

Pre-WWII Remington bolt guns were based on the 1917 Enfield action. The lineage of the Model 700 begins after WWII, with the model 721 & 722. Other than being a front locking bolt action, these rifles were very different from the Enfield and others more closely derived from the Mauser system.

To start with, the action is round. Tubular, not flat bottomed. The extractor and ejector differ from the Mauser/Springfield/Enfield/Arisaka, gone is the large claw extractor, and while its still argued over, the push feed system has proven itself to work well overall.

There are lots of differences between the Remington 700 (and 600) series rifles and Mauser actions. Enough that I don't see them as being more than generally related.
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Old December 24, 2018, 06:01 PM   #15
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The Winchester 70 is more closely related to a true Mauser than a Remington is.
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Old December 24, 2018, 06:10 PM   #16
reynolds357
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Quote:
I think Bart B contended it was a Winchester 70 that was the strongest.
I don't remember him saying it was strongest. I remember saying 70 was more accurate (without major modification) than the 700.He might have said stronger than 700, but all I remember was referencing accuracy issues and action stiffness.

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Old December 24, 2018, 06:13 PM   #17
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When John Lazzeroni was testing his cartridges he was over double working pressures when they found that the chamber had permanently expanded.
Bolt was fine. Action showed no signs of stress.
Action in question was a Savage.
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Old December 25, 2018, 10:45 AM   #18
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I don't remember him saying it was strongest. I remember saying 70 was more accurate (without major modification) than the 700.He might have said stronger than 700, but all I remember was referencing accuracy issues and action stiffness.
You nailed it. I translated that as stronger. Maybe maybe not but his point is as you stated.
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Old December 25, 2018, 11:18 AM   #19
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The Mk V action was developed long after the 721. At the time of introduction, the 721 was indeed the world's strongest, based on the torture test I mentioned above.

Seems to me that any push-feed with the bolt face enclosing the case head would be equally strong.
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Old December 25, 2018, 12:59 PM   #20
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The model 1903 Springfield, the model 1917 Enfield and the original model 70 Winchester have a coned breech. A cartridge head separation with one of these rifles can be dramatic.

i was very close to a gentleman on a firing range who had a cartridge head separation with his beautiful pre 1964 model 70 rifle. The stock was shattered, the magazine floor plate and guts were blown out and the scope was trashed.
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Old December 25, 2018, 01:25 PM   #21
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Quote:
The Mk V action was developed long after the 721. At the time of introduction, the 721 was indeed the world's strongest, based on the torture test I mentioned above.
Remington is making the claim Today. They are not saying "were." They are implying that they currently are.
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Old December 25, 2018, 01:59 PM   #22
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"When Nosler came out with their 26 (264) Weatherby came out with the 6.5-300."

The 6.5-300 Wby was originally a wildcat round in the 70's used as a long range (1,000yd) target round. Nothing new. IIRC, barrel life was extremely short.
It was originally called the 6.5 Weatherby-Wright- Hoyer by the people who originated the cartridge. I saw the article in IIRC RIFLE or HANDLOADER Magazine.
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Old December 25, 2018, 02:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Paul B. View Post
"When Nosler came out with their 26 (264) Weatherby came out with the 6.5-300."

The 6.5-300 Wby was originally a wildcat round in the 70's used as a long range (1,000yd) target round. Nothing new. IIRC, barrel life was extremely short.
It was originally called the 6.5 Weatherby-Wright- Hoyer by the people who originated the cartridge. I saw the article in IIRC RIFLE or HANDLOADER Magazine.
Paul B.
That is correct. Roy had worked on developing it but it never went to production. In 2016 it was re-introduced as an answer to the Nosler 26. It is currently touted as the fastest 6.5 available. In reality, it is just a marketing/current trend rifle. The .257 Weatherby is faster. I own both rifles in the Mark V Deluxe versions.
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Old December 25, 2018, 02:10 PM   #24
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There was time when many self educated gunsmiths working out of a shop in the backyard were experimenting with wildcat cartridges without any way of actually testing anything. Having an overly strong action to work with was a good idea.

For my purposes this is simply irrelevant.
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Old December 25, 2018, 04:00 PM   #25
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Where's the Remington ad saying the 700 is the strongest?
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