hmmm. really bitten by those old open top revolvers...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

but I'm not really much of a black powder shooter... so what's a guy to do ???

the fastest growing section of my collection is my open top cartridge conversion guns... ( I have 3 right now, ranging from a colt pocket in 32 S&W, to a 51 Navy in 32-20, to my Colt Walker in 45 Black powder Magnum... built to take smokeless loads )

I'm really loving these guns, they just have an awesome feel in the hand & have "that" look... I'm thinking a pair on Navy's in 38 Special for cowboy use would be the ultimate "rig"...

so aside from the building the guns to shoot the cartridges reliably, can the action take the use that CASS would put them to, or would more have to be done to them, to last reliably for years ??? anyone that has one of these... are they your favorite gun ??? got pics ???

[bedbugbilly]

I'm thinking you'd be better off buying one of Uberti/Cimmarron/Taylor (made by Uberti) Richards and Mason conversions. The barrels on those are the same as modern 38s - i.e. .357 - not the larger bore on a BP Navy. It makes it a lot easier to reload/shoot than having to mess with a HB or heeled bullet out of the larger BP bore.

I shoot a lot of 38s but can't really answer your question as far as them "holding up". It's my understanding that in CAS the loads are "light" so I wouldn't think it would really bother any more than shooting max BP loads out of one. You always have the option of using 38 Colt Short and Long as well.

If you are a "traditionlist" and want to stick to converting a Navy - then the traditional cartridge to use would be the 38 Colt Short with a heeled bullet. The 38 Colt Short was originally designed to be shot (BP) in the converted Navies.

Just as a side note - I was going to get either a Richards & Mason conversion or a 1872 open top in 38 Colt Long/38 Spl. a short time ago. I put that off for a while as I got the "itch" for a Uberti "Bisley". I ordered mine through the LGS that I haunt and questioned the fellow on the Cimmarrons, Taylors, etc. versus uberti. His feeling was that the Uberti (which makes 'em for Cimmarron/Taylor) was just as nice based on what had come through their shop. I opted for the Uberti - I saved $$ and it is a thing of beauty. I love it. I also shoot a Uberti '51 Navy at this time (I've owned many brands).

I load 38 Colt Shorts with a bullet from a Lyman 358-242 mold - 121 grain. I use not only smokeless but BP as well. Both shoot well and are a lot of fun out of the Bisley and my New Vaquero. I also load 38 Colt Long & 38 Special with a bullet out of a Lyman 358-311 - 158 gr. with smokeless and BP. They shoot well too. I'm using range lead and size the bullet to .358. For the BP, I lube with my usual BP lube - for smokeless, I lube by tumble lubing in paste wax/alox.

I guess it all boils down to what a person's "cup of tea" is. My thinking is that by the time a person buys a good BP revolver, a conversion cylinder and then has to mess with getting the bullet right for the oversize bore . . . that you'd be further ahead just buying one of their "already converted" models that have a .357 bore that you have a wide variety of bullet styles to try in it?

Food for thought anyway! Good luck to you and have fun - that's what it's all about in the great scheme of things!

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I would re-barrel / re-line using a TJ's liner for normal 38 / 357 bullets... I did toy with the idea of the short Colt ( brass, but with a normal .357 / .358 bullet ), or even a 38 S&W chambering...

still trying to give my retired machinist buddy fun things to work on, so he has cash for his playing... so builds would be the direction I'd likely go with...

[Captchee]

I have a Uberti 1851 that I converted with a kirts .
I shoot smokeless loads under 1000fps , which frankly is way fast enough anyway

As to using a heeled bullet ?? What issues ?
I simply purchase the crimp and a 125 grain mould from Old west bullet moulds .
Simple to re load and they shoot great .

Now cost wise , yep by the time you get done , your going to be into the same or more as if you just bought a 1851 with the conversion and built for .357
In my case I got the steel framed Uberti cost less then 100.00 . Complete conversion for 125.00 .
I then dumped another 175 in to , crimp , dies , and bullet mould .
Would I do it again ???
Ya probably since I have a 1861 that I would like to someday convert to 45 LC.
I also have seen one of the Taylor 1851 , RM ,.357 Uberti’s and its isn’t the same in that the receiver is a lot more blocky . At least for me its doesn’t have the same lines .
I would however like to possibly get a new barrel of my Uberti some day

As to problems .
Well I ended up having a friend work the conversion over and get the timing right .
. I need to replace the Barrel key as its still the original and is IMO way to soft .

[swathdiver]

Cabela's has the Pietta Dance Brothers open top for sale right now for $199.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

that's kinda what I was thinking.... but I'm curious if they'll hold up to a lot of firing, or if I'll need to rebuild hands & ratchets & cylinder stop pieces for something more durable if I were going to fire 100 rounds every other week... if I'll be wearing them out in a year, 3, 5, or if they'll last like a decent smokeless gun???

[maillemaker]

My limited impression is that BP revolvers in general do not use the same quality of steel and/or heat treatment as modern cartridge firearms. The hands and cylinders and other bearing surfaces seem to degrade much faster than would be acceptable with a modern revolver. That's why a BP revolver sells for $300 while a modern cartridge revolver sells for $600.

I suspect they anticipate that the average BP gun gets shot a few dozen times a year, if that, whereas a modern cartridge gun will be fired at least 50 times every time it goes to the range.

I've been shooting N-SSA competition for 3 years now and I've had heat treatment problems with both revolvers and long arms.

Steve

[45 Dragoon]

Well actually, they are made out of better stuff than you may think. The large guns (Walkers and Dragoons) can go thousands of rounds and maintain tolerances and so far, a we'll tuned and fitted 1860 Army can as well (all Ubertis). The cylinder contains the pressures so the rest of the set up is for support and they do it very well (as long as tolerances are maintained). In fact, the barrels are "good enough" to handle jacketed bullets. Don't be afraid to make a more "modern " gun from an old design! The hands ,ratchets and cylinders get eaten up from not being fitted/tuned correctly.

www.goonsgunworks.com

45 Dragoon

Correction, the '60 is a Pietta (so I can use factory rounds if that's what's available).

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Cabelas is having a sale... thinking of buying 2 matching 1851 Navy's & been talking to my machinist buddy about chambering them in 38 Short Colt, or long Colt & using Starline brass... would use a TJ's liner in both trim the barrel back to 4 - 4.5" & not install a ejector housing or loading gate, only a loading slot, hoping to give them as close to "original" look, with an easy to load cartridge conversion... probably won't do anything to strengthen the frame, as I'd keep light CAS level loads

thoughts or suggestions ???

[Gaucho Gringo]

Sounds like going to make a non factory conversion that was done by whatever gunsmith in the town you were in at the time you wanted it converted. More power to you. There were lots of them done in the day. The trouble I see is that these were considered tools and as a result were used as such, so a lot less of them survive than the more costly Colt factory conversions where you shipped your gun to Colt and they converted for you at a higher cost. Adler"s book on cartridge conversions is a god source of info. I don't see that the unsupported sides of the recoil shield add any strength to the frame so channeling it on the side shouldn't weaken it.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

we actually looked at that book a little last night... for CAS use, that is what I'm after, is the look of a local cartridge conversion...

I honestly don't know... any of you guys off the top of your head know if the 38 short Colt, & or the 38 Long Colt are legal for CAS ??? I seem to remember 38 Special, but wasn't sure of the Colt 38's... the short would have been the traditional conversion cartridge for the 51 Navy, but I could chamber for the long, if needed...

if they are not legal, I may short chamber 38 Special, & trim those so that normal pressure 38 Specials won't fit in the gun... I'm not trying to get away with something ( lighter than legal loads ) just trying to keep this pair as "traditional" looking as possible... I'll still shoot my 45 Colt Rugers for weekly CAS matches, just looking for something different for special occasions, & not being able to use them at regionals ( for example ) would counter productive to what I'm building them for...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

picked up 2 steel 51 Navy's on Saturday... they were on sale for $179, & I had a couple $20.00 off coupons, so I paid $159.00 each for them... pretty nice guns... don't know when I'll start on the conversions, but couldn't turn down the guns at that price...

thinking about barrel lengths... will probably trim them to just in front of the "B" on black powder on the left side, or if I keep the Italy on the right side, just after the "Y" which is about 1/3 to 1/2" longer somewhere between 4-4.5" long

also looking at shortening the loading lever & leaving that on the gun, to maintain the classic looks, even though it won't be needed for a cartridge conversion...

now I need to go to the SASS site & see if either the long or short Colt are legal for use... just spent a few minutes going through the SASS rules... looks like ( or at least I couldn't find anything ) exempting the shorter 38's, as long as I can maintain a power factor of 60... which shouldn't be a problem even with the short Colt cartridge