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Old April 23, 2018, 06:42 AM   #1
Mobuck
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"trainers"

One of my pet peeves are those "dudes" who do "training classes" for shooters. I was chatting with a guy a while back and concealed carry came up. He told he had several years in the Marine Corps, had been a county Deputy for almost a decade, and he and 3 friends gave "training classes" during summer months.
OK.
First off, being a Marine doesn't automatically qualify anyone for civilian concealed weapons use.
Second, I knew some guys from that county Sheriff's department and most of them got canned for improprieties involving female prisoners.
Third, after we'd discussed different carry strategies, the guy asked to see my Crimson Trace gripped Ruger SP101. He grabbed onto it like it was trying to attack him and fumbled it around a bit before finding the laser button. Then he turned the muzzle toward himself to look into the laser beam. I stopped him before he got that far reminding him the laser could damage his eyes and the revolver WAS STILL LOADED. I'd already told him this once and he watched me take it out of my holster so being loaded wasn't a secret. Now some will admonish me for handing a loaded gun to another person but this guy claimed to be an expert(but obviously wasn't quite).
My point is:this "DUDE" was "training" others but wasn't even capable himself.
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Old April 23, 2018, 08:12 AM   #2
Jleonard
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What's the old saying..."If can, do. If you can't, teach."
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Old April 23, 2018, 11:02 AM   #3
Pahoo
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You will know a good trainer.

We all know folks whose priority is to tell you how qualified they are. A truly credible person, will show it. I recently completed an NRA's (RSO) training and this guy was a real pro and you could see it, right off. ......

Quote:
First off, being a Marine doesn't automatically qualify anyone for civilian concealed weapons use
I think you meant to say' "Weapons Training" and you are spot-on. However, in many states, you can get a concealed carry permit by presenting your DD-214. I'm sure that Marine handled more weapons than I did I did, in the NAVY. ..
I have never attended a bad training class, just some better than others. ..

Quote:
I knew some guys from that county Sheriff's department and most of them got canned.
Then we have Politicians that eventually become corrupt. Most LEO's I know, are good honest and ethical people. Would be nice if I could say the same for our government. .....

Be Safe !!!
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Old April 23, 2018, 01:51 PM   #4
SIGSHR
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Check out their credentials if you can.
"Military experience"? Army, in my case, most people in the Army are support and rear echelon types, and even in combat units you meet very few gun guys
and the Army in my day (1967-1971) did a poor job of firearms training.
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Old April 23, 2018, 09:29 PM   #5
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If my choice is a former Soldier /LEO or a training junkie who is essentially a tactical parrot with zero practical experience. I would not hesitate to select the former. If a person has never carried a firearm occupationally and has never had the occasion to confront danger while armed, they wont be training me in matters of self defense, tactics or strategics.
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Old April 24, 2018, 06:30 AM   #6
Mobuck
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More thoughts: Since I've held a CCW permit and carried a concealed defensive handgun for nearly as long as the mentioned "Dude" has served in both military and county LEO, would I not be more qualified to be a CCW "trainer"?
Really, how does uniformed military service or LEO actually teach one ANYTHING about carrying a concealed weapon? In fact, I still shoot(train) more frequently than our county Sheriff's department. They "qualify"(which means they go to a range and toe the line to shoot paper) with their toys ONCE A YEAR. Quite possibly those individuals have NEVER shot at another human or been shot at in those years of service. They THINK they know how to or how they will react but have never actually owned that experience.
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Old April 24, 2018, 08:28 AM   #7
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Really, how does uniformed military service or LEO actually teach one ANYTHING about carrying a concealed weapon?
The service experience itself? It really doesn't.

There are a number of LEOs who have been extensively trained, however.

Quote:
In fact, I still shoot(train) more frequently than our county Sheriff's department. They "qualify"(which means they go to a range and toe the line to shoot paper) with their toys ONCE A YEAR.
They won't help you much!

Quote:
Quite possibly those individuals have NEVER shot at another human or been shot at in those years of service.
Even those who have have had real experience have had so little, with so little variation, that it would not help you much, or really add to their ability.

The best trainers for practical defensive shooting (1) can handle a handgun proficiently; (2) Have worked with their peers to understand the realities of defensive shooting and the variables involved, including the psychological and physical aspects; (3) know something about the science of teaching; (4) have tried out their tactics and skills in shoot house scenarios and FoF training; and (5) have put that all to use in doing some actual teaching. Some experience in competition would not hurt, provided that the instructor knows the significant shortcomings.
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Old April 24, 2018, 09:07 AM   #8
Mobuck
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I suppose if the "trainee" feels more confident and/or learns something, that's the important thing.
I received my OJT from men who were shot at and shot back on a nearly daily basis. This background makes me far more skeptical of the "stuff" I see done under the premise of "training".
I'm done, having said more than I probably should.
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Old April 24, 2018, 10:11 AM   #9
jfruser
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Any doofus can call themselves a "trainer." And about half of them do, it seems.

And don't get me started on NRA trainer cert credentialism. "I'm a NRA-certified trainer in so many things, I wallpapered by master bathroom with NRA certificates!"

I don't have the answer to avoiding boar's teats trainers. Reputation is about all you can go on, and sometimes even that is artificial.

The upside is that most folks don't need a particularly knowledgeable or capable trainer to manage the basics: safe gun handling, hit-the-paper marksmanship, basic concealed carry.
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Old April 24, 2018, 10:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
The upside is that most folks don't need a particularly knowledgeable or capable trainer to manage the basics: safe gun handling, hit-the-paper marksmanship, basic concealed carry.
The downside to that is that those "basics" do not equip one very well to respond effectively to the entirely unexpected rapid ambush by a moving target at distances that vary, approaching from angles that cover the compass--aka reality.

They are necessary, but not sufficient.
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Old April 24, 2018, 11:08 AM   #11
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T
Quote:
he upside is that most folks don't need a particularly knowledgeable or capable trainer to manage the basics: safe gun handling, hit-the-paper marksmanship, basic concealed carry
and that's fine if all you are looking for is plinking on the range, playing games or a hunting trip.
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Old April 24, 2018, 11:11 AM   #12
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobuck
One of my pet peeves are those "dudes" who do "training classes" for shooters....
So is your pet peeve everyone who does training classes or only those who aren't really qualified to do what they do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobuck
...I was chatting with a guy a while back and concealed carry came up. He told he had several years in the Marine Corps, had been a county Deputy for almost a decade, and he and 3 friends gave "training classes" during summer months. ....
So you concluded that guy wasn't qualified, and you explained why you thought he wasn't qualified.

Now have you concluded that, based on this one trainer who you concluded was unqualified, everyone who does classes for shooters is unqualified?
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Old April 24, 2018, 11:17 AM   #13
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobuck
....I'm done, having said more than I probably should.
Thank you, and I agree.

So let's end this thread and let it fade into well deserved oblivion.
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Old April 24, 2018, 09:07 PM   #14
4V50 Gary
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A person with training does not make that person a teacher. I've attended several instructor classes and was taught to design and implement a lesson plan. I've also benefitted from observing how others instruct.

I make trainees take baby steps and build their knowledge, safety, competence, and handling long before they even step onto the firing line. It also ensures that there is good communication between myself and the students so I don't get shot.
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