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Old June 29, 2017, 02:34 PM   #1
SIGSHR
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"Hot" machine gun ammunition ?

I have seen references to WWII 8MM Mausers with head space problems caused by firing "hot" machine gun ammuntion. Did they make such a thing.
IMHO it would complicate the supply lines, as if the Axis supply lines were complicated enough as is. And would it fill a real tactical need?>
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Old June 29, 2017, 05:01 PM   #2
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The WWI machine gun ammunition wasn't hot but used a heavier sS bullet (schwere Spitzer).
It became the standard round for WWII. The difference in pressure was less than 10% (43k to 46ksi). So WWII 98k should have no issue with that round at all.
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Old June 29, 2017, 05:54 PM   #3
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I don't believe any modern army would put two different cartridges of the same caliber in the supply channel.
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Old June 29, 2017, 06:28 PM   #4
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7.62x25 ammo on stripper clips, I think mostly Czech, but possibly Bulgarian. There was some Hitenburger 9mm Luger made for SMGs in extreme cold climates that was pretty Hot, and some Egyptian as well.

I have never heard of a full size rifle cartridge that was specific to machineguns, except tracers, but those were mixed on the same belt as standard ball, and was the same pressure. Wouldn't make much sense to have your tracers hitting somewhere a different place than the rest of the belt.

The ammo made by the Germans in WW2 is well documented, and I have yet to see anything specific to machine guns. Here is a reprint of the WW2 Army manual on identifying enemy ammo: http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/ge...mmunition.html

Especially when you consider MG34 and MG42 are gas operated and tend to spontaneously disassemble if you use ammo that is too hot, such as Turkish surplus.
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Old June 29, 2017, 09:45 PM   #5
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"7.62x25 ammo on stripper clips, I think mostly Czech, but possibly Bulgarian."

There is no such thing as "Hot MG/SMG Ammo" in 7.62x25. It is an internet myth, and it does not exist. All 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo was made for both pistols and SMGs. There is no evidence ANYWHERE to the contrary.
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Old June 30, 2017, 01:40 AM   #6
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Quote:
I don't believe any modern army would put two different cartridges of the same caliber in the supply channel.

define "modern"?


If you want to see a really complex system, look at WWII Japan.

Since WWII, standardization has been a much greater priority than before.

Never heard about "hot" machine gun ammo. Have heard about hot 9mm ammo, stuff too hot for some pistols and called SMG ammo (no idea if its correct or not for a given lot), often this hot ammo seems to be "repackaged" so its precise origin is unknown.

I do know that Nazi Germany made runs of ammunition for arctic and African conditions. I'm sure some other people have done similar things.

I grew up in the years before WWII K98s were "valuable antiques" and we put every kind of thing there was through them. Don't recall any significant breakage or failure in the many dozens that passed through my and my friends hands. I've had sporterized 98 Mausers in calibers ranging from .22-250 to .458 Win Mag. They aren't spun glass fragile, and if you've got one, its because it survived whatever abuse it encountered during its life.

You absolutely CAN break them, but odds are high that if one breaks, its something you did. (a lot of broken extractors are directly operator caused )

If you correctly match historical ammo to a historical gun, its not going to be "too hot" for a gun in sound mechanical condition.

If you're shooting whatever milsurp you can get, because its cheaper, then, ultimately, if something does go badly wrong, its your fault.

And, the age (and even caliber) of the milsurp is no guarantee that its ok stuff. We simply have no idea what the ammo has been through in its years of storage, and particularly when packed loose in bulk.

I've got a few boxes of 1939 German ammo, still in the original cardboard boxes, which are in excellent condition. THAT stuff, I feel confident was never stored under poor conditions.

A friend got 500rnds of 7.62NATO, which turned out to be early 80s Israeli, from the headstamps. The stuff was loose packed and a bit dirty. Tested 100 rnds. 11 failure to fire, 7 fired cases cracked (case split, fore and aft, not around) just ahead of the web. Those that fired, worked normally (other than the case splits) and hit the 200yd gong we were shooting at, so they were accurate enough for that.

We pulled the remaining 400 bullets, some had deteriorated powder stuck on the bases, but the bullets themselves were fire. We tossed the powder and the cases.

back in the early 70s, we got some 1918 marked .30-06. Cases were dark brown color but not corroded. All of it fired perfectly through a 1903 Springfield, though it did print 6" lower at 100yds than new commercial ammo.

Even with fairly modern foreign milsurp ammo, there's no way of knowing if you got good stuff, or bad, until you try it.
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Old June 30, 2017, 10:23 AM   #7
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I don't know about the German Ammo in question. However I do know that war time productions varies.

Our '06 ammo didn't change much. We got in at the last of the war, our industry prospered, or armament plants didn't get bombed. We started prior to the war (lend lease) and improved as time went by.

But Germany (and Japan) didn't fare as well. They prepared for war before the war, but then things went south. We bombed their factories, cut off their raw materials, so it makes sense that their quality went south. So the steel in their rifles may have not been as good as it was, or they might have had to switched powder, or their dies for making ammo wore out.

I'm just guessing on this, but if one thinks about it, it makes since.

An example, back in the 70s before everyone was making 223 ammo, I was selling reloaded ammo. I'd buy large quanities of surplus brass, (20-30,000 piece at a time) reloading and selling it. Did good, but had problems because I was wearing out sizing dies. Eventually went to a carbide sizing die, but the fact remains, dies wear out, it did for me, but I wasn't making millions up on millions of rounds.

I do remember Lake City had the same problem with their 308 Match ammo. Remember when the M118 was white ball match? As their equipment went south, it wasn't match ammo. So they repackaged it in brown boxes and called it M118 Special Ball. Replacing the match with M852.

I don't see a military having two types of ammo (one hot, one not), but I do see stuff wearing out, I do see raw materials being cut back and inferior material being substituted.

A million things could pop up (and does) in war, that would screw up the system.

We are different (the US). I shoot a lot of surplus arms and ammo. I've found that some of the old WWII stuff is just as accurate if not more so then the stuff that comes out today. It industry that wins major wars. You disrupt a countries industry you disrupt their quality.
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Old June 30, 2017, 12:27 PM   #8
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In case this wasn't clear, that "dual supply" was a WWI thing (100 years ago), and Germany didn't issue loose ammo. You got stripper clips with the 153 gr bullet or belts with the 197 gr.
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Old June 30, 2017, 07:37 PM   #9
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During WWII the Japanese military had a 7.7mm machine gun that used a powerful round. Type 92 HMG, i think. Ammo came in 30 round Hotchkiss strips.

i was using that ammo in my pristine 7.7 mm rifle that a Korean policeman gave me. Had an interesting older NCO friend . He was visiting relatives in Japan when WWII started. He was drafted into the Japanese army and fought in the Pacific.

One day the NCO and i were going shooting. Showed him my rifle and complained about the recoil. He told me to cease and desist firing that ammo. He said the Japanese army warned the troops against using it in their rifles.

About 15 years ago i bought some surplus Venezuelan 7.62mm ball ammunition. First and only round i fired struck in the chamber of my Remington 700 rifle. Recoil was no harder than my moderate hand loads. But i could not pull the bolt back. Did the old Army drill Sgt. thing. Put the butt on the ground and applied my size 12 to the bolt handle.

Did some research and learned that ammo had a special coating designed to slow the cyclic rate of the MG 3 machinegun.

BTW:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...9D7D&FORM=VIRE

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Old June 30, 2017, 10:33 PM   #10
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"Did some research and learned that ammo had a special coating designed to slow the cyclic rate of the MG 3 machinegun."

Whaaaat??? Where did that info come from???
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Old June 30, 2017, 11:31 PM   #11
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The Japanese 7.7x58 SR ammunition that was issued in feed strips for the Type 92 machinegun won't fit or feed in a standard Type 99 rifle. I know because I tried it.

The Japanese issued three kinds of 7.7 ammo. The type for rifles is rimless and was made for use in the Type 99 rifle. The type for ground machineguns is as described, semi-rimmed and issued only in feed strips. The third type is full rimmed for the license-built Lewis gun used by the Imperial Navy air service in both flexible mounts and for use in ground defense of airfields; it is identical to the .303 British and interchangeable with it, but will not work in any Japanese rifle or any other Japanese machinegun.

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Old July 1, 2017, 10:41 AM   #12
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"Whaaaat??? Where did that info come from???"

It came from the German manufacturer of the ammunition. Somewhere on an old computer is my record of correspondence with the manufacturer, maybe Hirtenberger.
In 2009 i posted my experience on this website. Read it this morning.

QUOTE]The Japanese 7.7x58 SR ammunition that was issued in feed strips for the Type 92 machinegun won't fit or feed in a standard Type 99 rifle. I know because I tried it. [/QUOTE]

Correction!!! It did not work for you in your gun.

Yep, the Type 92 machinegun ammo is semi rimmed. All other case dimensions are the same. If the rim fits the bolt face and will go under the extractor it will chamber. It will probably not feed from the magazine. Some of the semi rimmed machine gun ammo i have will chamber in my rifle from Korea and some will not.
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Old July 1, 2017, 01:07 PM   #13
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No such thing as "SMG ammo". That particular fairy tale comes from the Brits, as I recall. Wasn't and isn't true. 9mm NATO is considered +P, but it's used in everything 9mm.
WWII Mausers might have headspace issues caused by inadequate QC from people dropping bombs on the plant. However, any such issues are more likely caused by places like Century assembling rifles out of parts bins with no QC.
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Old July 1, 2017, 02:12 PM   #14
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Headspace grows through use, and if a Mauser wasn't heat treated properly, through lug setback.

I've heard the stories of "machine gun use only" loads, but research ended up showing that they were for the Luftwaffe, with high consistency primers so that the machine guns wouldn't hang fire and put a bullet through a propeller blade.

I've also heard of Russian machine gun only 7.62x54r ammunition from a SOCOM sniper I respect, considering the state of Soviet ammo manufacturing during WWII I believe that "hot" lots would be banded together for use in the old Maxim heavy machine guns rather than wasted. Since the other Soviet machine guns used drums it would be easy to ensure the banded ammo made it to the right gun crew. The backstory behind this is that the Sniper checked out a PE sniper rifle and ammunition from the weapons locker at Fort Bragg, and had horrible recoil and very difficult extraction, and upon turn in the armorer was horrified that "machine gun only" ammo had been fired through an original PE sniper rifle. Of course it could also be that the powder in the ammo deteriorated with age and increased the pressure and the armorer was full of crap.

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Old July 2, 2017, 12:02 AM   #15
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"Correction!!! It did not work for you in your gun. "

Or it did work for you in your gun. I tried it in several Type 99 rifles and could not get it to feed or the bolt to close, but maybe Japanese soldiers knew some trick or other that only some of us have learned. Meantime, I will continue to say that the 7.7x58 SR was not intended for use in the Type 99 rifle, but will note that some people have managed somehow to get it to work. (Maybe the Imperial soldiers ground off the rim, using the same grinders they used to grind off the "crest" before surrendering the rifles.)

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Old July 2, 2017, 11:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
No such thing as "SMG ammo".
Many years ago when my match going pistol was a 9mm, I bought a large amount of imported ammo at a gun show.
It cost about the same as reloading without all the work.
The seller literally had stacks of it.
If memory serves it was from the Middle East, like Turkey or Egypt maybe.
And that stuff was very warm, indeed.
It chronographed more like .38 super.
Really knocked down those full sized poppers.
Don't know if it was supposed to be for something other than a pistol.
But it was impressive.
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Old July 3, 2017, 10:10 AM   #17
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Quote:
No such thing as "SMG ammo".
Century seems to think otherwise.

http://www.centuryarms.biz/proddetail.asp?prod=AM1385E

Quote:
FN Mk 2 Z, Brass Case, Corrosive, 124gr

FOR USE IN SUBMACHINE GUNS ONLY / NOT FOR USE IN PISTOLS
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Old July 3, 2017, 10:58 AM   #18
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Quote:
FOR USE IN SUBMACHINE GUNS ONLY / NOT FOR USE IN PISTOLS
Ok, now the question becomes "is that what FN (the maker) says?" Or is it CYA by the importer (Century Arms)???
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Old July 3, 2017, 12:48 PM   #19
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^^^ I tried Googling the Mark 2Z marking, which turns out to be a British military designation. According to the Imperial War Museums, the Mark 2Z cartridge came about when the earlier Mark 1Z cartridge was found insufficiently powerful to cycle Sten guns reliably, causing some (presumably exciting) full-auto mag-dumping runaways when the bolt did not travel far enough back to reengage the sear. The Brits upped the power and called it the Mark 2Z.

Remaining stocks of Mark 1Z were reportedly marked "Pistol Use Only" and the cartridge was officially deemed obsolete in June of 1957. One would assume that the Mark 2Z cartridge must have necessarily been used in pistols from this point forward, although the link does not positively say that.

This site says that Mark 2Z achieved NATO standardization in 1962, with subsequent boxes being marked with the NATO cross-in-a-circle marking, but the ammo on the CIA website doesn't appear to be so marked.

Reports from various online forums—notably Aussie and Pakistani sites—suggest that Mark 2Z is loaded pretty warm. That said, some shooters have obviously been using it in pistols without catastrophic results, at least not immediately.

Bottom line: I can't find any formal-looking guidance positively stating that it's safe for use in pistols. The statement on the CIA website may ultimately by CYA, but I can understand why it's there, as it sounds like this stuff is the equivalent of a hot NATO or +P+ load. I personally wouldn't risk it.
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Old July 3, 2017, 05:30 PM   #20
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The US provided standard Winchester 9mm ammo to the British under Lend-Lease and it was soon found that it did not have enough power to cycle a STEN gun, causing runaways. They used some in other guns, but most of it came back c. 1955 with the boxes marked "NOT FOR STEN". Needless to say, American super-patriots concluded that OUR ammo was TOO POWERFUL for those cheap British guns. That view is sometimes heard even today.

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Old July 3, 2017, 09:06 PM   #21
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Century doesn't know s**t from shinola about ammo. I'm amazed when they actually get any ammo info right.
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Old July 4, 2017, 01:02 AM   #22
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Some yellow tipped brass Mosin shells were known as "machine gun" ammo and I was advised not to shoot it in my Mosin by the old timers at the gun shop. I don't know if it's true but I still have 40 rounds of it in the top of the closet. I won't be running it through my bolt gun.
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Old July 4, 2017, 09:23 AM   #23
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The yellow tip simply means it heavy ball ammo and fine for your bolt rifle. Since it's 187 grains, it will zero a bit different.

Yes it was designed for machine guns, but not because it's hotter.
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Old July 5, 2017, 07:24 AM   #24
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"I don't believe any modern army would put two different cartridges of the same caliber in the supply channel."

The Japanese fielded two dimensionally identical, but very different, 6.5x50 rounds during the war.

The first was the standard Type 38 rifle round.

The second was a downloaded, lower-pressure round intended for use in the Type 11 light machine gun.
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Old July 8, 2017, 02:03 PM   #25
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I believe some old Yugoslavian 8mm machinegun ammo were manufactured with recessed primers, causing a misfire with my K98 Mauser on the first try, but would detonate on the second try.
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