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Old November 26, 2016, 01:57 PM   #1
1stmar
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Give me your thoughts on this group..

This is a 5 shot group. A cluster of 2 (.19) and an 1" away a cluster of 3 (.29). The interesting data point is how it was fired. I fired the first 2 shots (.19) and then there was a cease fire. Targets were changed, maybe 10min later range was hot and I fired the next 3. I didn't have any other rounds for this load to test. My aiming point didn't change, I don't think it was a wind shift as the shots are high and left not just left and don't show a drift pattern. During the cease fire I did put my rifle in a rack to make it safe. Didn't just leave it in the rest.
When you view the picture is rotated 90 clockwise

Welcome any thoughts.
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Old November 26, 2016, 01:59 PM   #2
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The whole rest after a cease fire is what probably happened. I don't know about your range, but when someone is going down range at my range I like to hang my rifle up so it's not pointing down range
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Old November 26, 2016, 02:56 PM   #3
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Iron sights? If so was there a cloud cover then not (or visa versa) between strings?

What happened just before the first two shots? Did you fire 5 or 6 fouling shots prior to the first string? So you'd have a warm barrel. Then the last three on a cold barrel?
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Old November 26, 2016, 03:00 PM   #4
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Scoped rifle, this was the last of 3 groups of 5. The first 10 were different loads. Waited 1+ minutes between shots and 5+ minutes between groups. Cloudy day, cool (47), slight breeze with peaks to 10mph but didnt feel like a consistent breeze, though hard to say from covered range.
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Old November 26, 2016, 03:47 PM   #5
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No mention of rifle, caliber, bullet or range, tough to make any kind of suggestion other than wild guesses.

Most likely seems to me that since you put your rifle in the rack, then back on the rest to shoot, that something was different when you resumed shooting.

The most minor things can change the point of impact, including how you hold the rifle when firing. Or how it sits in the sandbags, tension on the sling, etc., just about every variable you can think of can play a part, sometimes a significant one.
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Old November 26, 2016, 03:55 PM   #6
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100 yds 22-250 53 hpbt ~3600fps I use the crosshairs on the target to maintain consistency from shot to shot. scope is a b&l elite. Parallax adjusted before shooting.
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Old November 26, 2016, 05:12 PM   #7
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What order were those five shots?
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Old November 26, 2016, 05:36 PM   #8
1stmar
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first 2 at 12:00 in a group .19", the next 3 clustered together at 11:00 in a group. Doing some research, starting to think it was wind. The image of the target it rotated 90 degress clockwise.
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Old November 26, 2016, 06:07 PM   #9
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You realize that shooting groups just makes you bonkers.
Snipers don't shoot groups at their targets.
Hunters don't shoot groups at their targets.
Save your sanity, don't shoot groups.
You'll live longer and have a happier life.
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Old November 26, 2016, 06:29 PM   #10
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G you are so right.
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Old November 26, 2016, 07:35 PM   #11
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What is the distance between the two groups ?

My calculator says you would need a consistent 14mph wind for it to be pushed off 1" . That's a pretty strong wind not to notice .
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Old November 26, 2016, 07:46 PM   #12
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I think your calculator may be off. The bc is .224 with a 10 mph cross wind it would be about 1". The distance between the groups is 1". The flight time is 81ms. The thing that makes me think it's not the wind is the consistency of the second group. The wind would have had to be the same, or pretty close to get a group like that. Possible. Just seems unlikely. I need to get a range flag.
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Old November 26, 2016, 09:22 PM   #13
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Correct , i used the wrong data . I now get 1" at 10mph as well
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Old November 26, 2016, 11:33 PM   #14
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Cheek weld.
Grip technique/force.
Rifle rest.

Pick one or all of the above, and I'd say it's an appropriate answer.
I've had it happen, and can even replicate it, almost on-demand, with a few rifles.
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Old November 27, 2016, 02:26 AM   #15
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FM I think you may be right. I'm going to go through my parallax adjustment again.
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Old November 27, 2016, 05:03 AM   #16
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Quote:
Cheek weld.
Grip technique/force.
Rifle rest
Yep, I agree. You could run a check next range session by varying any of those varables during a single shooting session.

Also, I'd discount wind as those pair of groups are vertically displaced; wind would affect them more in a horizontal direction and at the speed you're shooting, even that would be infintesimal.

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Old November 27, 2016, 07:21 AM   #17
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Have someone you know to be a good shot (at least as good as you) give it a try. See what he gets. But really I wouldn't worry about it in the least.
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Old November 27, 2016, 01:50 PM   #18
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"...10min later..." Ten minutes of cooling can do that. A minute of cooling doesn't really do much.
"...go through my parallax adjustment..." So will that. You shouldn't have to fiddle with that.
"...My calculator says..." Throw it away. Make you as crazy as shooting groups. snicker. Ballistics calculators are computer program written by people who very likely have never seen or fired a real rifle.
"...shooting groups just makes you bonkers..." Think that's why the bench rest guys are a bit, um, peculiar? snicker.
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Old November 27, 2016, 02:33 PM   #19
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For me shooting groups is the only way to measure my improvement. I don't shoot with many others and generally I shoot better than those I do shoot with. So while I would love to turn it over to someone else there really isnt anyone I know that shoots better than I do. Not saying I'm a great shot. I have let others shoot my rifles and it hasn't worked out.

Parallax is not something I adjust much, but there is a process to go through to ensure it is adjusted properly. My range is only 100yds, so limited. I do struggle w my vision.

Always looking to get better at shooting and reloading. Appreciate the responses. Keep them coming
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Old November 27, 2016, 02:51 PM   #20
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Do you wear corrective lenses when shooting? Always? (You mention your vision. Are you wearing corrective lenses? If not, why not?)

Did you zero the scope with/without corrective lenses? Did you zero at 50 yds.?
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Old November 27, 2016, 02:53 PM   #21
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My thought is that it is pretty hard to tell what is going on with a combination of variables by one 5 shot group.

Can you repeat the results, if so under what conditions? At that point one can begin to draw some conclusions.
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Old November 27, 2016, 03:10 PM   #22
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I wear corrective lenses for all shooting including zeroing. I have loaded more rounds with that load and will look to get out next weekend. My gut tells me my parallax isn't perfect and my head position changed from the first group to the second or perhaps a wee bit of rifle can't difference from the first group to the second. I'll know better after 5 consecutive shots and checking parallax.
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Old November 27, 2016, 05:38 PM   #23
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I think you are over thinking this.

A fair amount of shift, but I have had groups like that more often than I care to think about (I too am into shooting the smallest groups I can for fun and annoyance, its no worse than work)

On the other hand, I shot a really poor 5 shot group as the light was doing and I turned on my illuminated dot.

I had shot much better than that, settled in, full focus on the target and the trigger and got a 5 shot 3/8 MOA.

Keep in mind that the whole thing was erratic in that I had to clear my eyes, wait for the dot, dot fade, but I was focused and got constant results in line with previous shots with the same load.

if its a good load then its the shooter, gun combo. If its not a good load then the best shooter gun combo makes no difference.

Nothing more to it than duplicate the load and see what it does with 5 shots and take it form there.

I could just be inconsistent combo and not a good load.
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Old November 28, 2016, 02:33 PM   #24
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Quote:
RC20 Wrote:
.....
Nothing more to it than duplicate the load and see what it does with 5 shots and take it from there.


Yep - I agree.
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Old November 28, 2016, 02:51 PM   #25
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What do I think about the group. You still need to adjust windage about 2 inches.
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