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Old January 7, 2007, 10:10 PM   #1
mete
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How not to do it !

Sadly a Paterson NJ cop was just killed in a hold-up. But the tactics were poor. He was off duty , UNARMED and identified himself as a cop .He was shot and killed ! Foolish to face a criminal without being armed !
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Old January 7, 2007, 11:02 PM   #2
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Well, it's unjust to say it's foolish when we don't know the specifics.

What if the perp had a gun to another patron's head? What if the cop thought that trying to negotiate right then was the only way to save someone else's life? Would it be foolish then?

I'll admit, it was probably foolish of this cop to not be carrying all the time. In his job, he knows more than most that human society can sink to some pretty horrible depths. But to say that he should have just sat there with his mouth shut just cause he wasn't armed is not accurate. In fact, if I were at a bank and a gunman was threatening to kill someone, I would try to talk to them. Hell, I would even offer for them to use me instead of someone else as the hostage. We don't know what happened inside that bank. We don't know what was said. So we cannot pass judgment on what the cop was doing without knowing the specifics.
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Old January 8, 2007, 01:19 AM   #3
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G-Cym

While what you say is valid , in that we do not know the circumstances, even the most basic academy training would flag this as a no go scenario. While it may be noble to offer yourself as a hostage, in reality all you have done is give the perpetrator another hostage .

To identify yourself as law enforcement while un-armed, off duty, with no back up is foolish at best, and a death sentence at worst. It serves to escalate the robbers already panicked state.

Much better to observe for future investigation, retreat if possible, and inform the incoming units of the situation, both psychological, and tactical.

Best regards,
Blair
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Old January 8, 2007, 06:21 AM   #4
mete
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This mornings details were a little different from yesterdays .The officer was paying for food at a chicken place when the BG tried to take his wallet. There was a struggle ,the officer IDed himself ,then the BG pulled a gun and shot him.
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Old January 8, 2007, 12:20 PM   #5
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This unfortunate incident shows me that counting on any BG to just run away, to be afraid/intimidated of resistance, or to be unwilling to risk more serious charges including murder of an LE can be a bad move.

PLANNING your SD against a BG doing any of the above may get you killed. Have your gun, and use it accordingly.
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Old January 8, 2007, 01:47 PM   #6
cal
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A time many years ago there was weight in saying, "I'm a cop!"

It told of someone with training, experience, professional and on the side of the law. And many times it would thwart an overt action by a miscreant. Not today!

Since the drug culture has taken over this country in tandem with several other maladies. There is no longer a respect for trained, professional, law abiding folks. Viewing this thread would seem to bear this out.
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Old January 8, 2007, 05:21 PM   #7
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Sounds to me like he was killed for struggling with the guy not so much for being a cop. I wasn't there so I will try not to judge, but if you are unaemed and a BG wants your wallet, GIVE IT TO THEM!! This may be the same advice even if you are armed depending on the circumstances. My prayers go out to his family and friends.
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Old January 8, 2007, 08:12 PM   #8
odessastraight
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I will not capitulate

No, I will not give up my wallet up to some lowlife scumbag. What would be next...give up your wife? There are some things worse than death and one of them is to cower in fear of the predators among our society. Should the BG have me at gun/knife point I will be looking for a diversion (maybe pitch my wallet at his feet) and then leaglly stop his antisocial behavior with well aimed fire.
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Old January 8, 2007, 09:57 PM   #9
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There is no good time
To die in vain.
Do not let vanity
Or false pride
Be your warrant.

There are times to fight,
Times to feint,
Times to counter,
Times to retreat,
Times to negotiate,
Times to dissimulate,
Times to capitulate,
Times to divert,
Times to avert.

Choose wisely,
In order to live;
Unless the choice
Is not yours to make.

Wise men are few.
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Old January 20, 2007, 10:51 PM   #10
Jager1
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Quote:
No, I will not give up my wallet up to some lowlife scumbag. What would be next...give up your wife? There are some things worse than death and one of them is to cower in fear of the predators among our society. Should the BG have me at gun/knife point I will be looking for a diversion (maybe pitch my wallet at his feet) and then leaglly stop his antisocial behavior with well aimed fire.
What if there are more than one predator and they are all armed?

One-size-fits-all doesn't always.

They can have my wallet. Nothing in it is worth dying for. Only if I perceive that the armed criminal is going to attempt to threaten my life in spite of of getting my valuables; will I resist using lethal force.

Not enough information here to judge actions in this case.

The officer being armed might have helped. It might not have.

Sad.
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Old January 21, 2007, 07:34 AM   #11
NCHornet
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No, I will not give up my wallet up to some lowlife scumbag. What would be next...give up your wife? There are some things worse than death and one of them is to cower in fear of the predators among our society. Should the BG have me at gun/knife point I will be looking for a diversion (maybe pitch my wallet at his feet) and then leaglly stop his antisocial behavior with well aimed fire.

This kind of John Wayne reply sounds good on a public forum but in real life it could put you behind bars for the rest of your life, sad but true, and my wallet sure ain't worth that!! Especially since I'm married with children + broke.

I also agree we don't have enough details, but as it was written the cop resisted the perp before he knew he had a weapon, if the cop would have drawn his weapon and shot the guy he would have been considered the one who escalated the fight and he would be held guilty of the mans death. If you draw your weapon you better be able to prove you were in fear of your life or the life of others, this doesn't mean the BG has to have a weapon but it would sure help your case. A few states have laws that allow you to use lethal force for property, but I believe you still have to prove the fear part.
Be careful and know your states laws.
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Old January 21, 2007, 08:47 AM   #12
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Since the police almost always in almost every jurisdiction (I've never heard any police official say otherwise, but you never know, hence the almost) will tell you that property is not worth fighting over, I have to wonder what was in the guys wallet?

Would I tamely hand over my wallet, if it contained my police ID and possibly my shield? Would that be worth fighting over?
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Old January 21, 2007, 12:32 PM   #13
Jager1
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Antipitas,

Good point.

Which is why a citizen should carry a "throwaway" wallet with all the appearances of being their actual one, with a little money in it to pacify the atypical thug. I would suggest no more than $50. Thus, handing it over is not a life-changing event as your actual wallet (containing cash, credit cards or other sensitive items) is elsewhere on your person. Of course, if the thugs detain you long enough to pat you down for goods, the second wallet may be discovered. If you are carrying concealed, things are going to get ugly fast. Then you might have few choices.

An officer should always maintain his badge/ID separate from his wallet for just such an event.
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Old January 21, 2007, 02:19 PM   #14
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It must be a miserable feeling to live in such fear of the predators in our society to the extent of recommending submission to their antisocial and criminal demands. I'll not consider appeasement as an option. I feel it is a moral obligation not to give in to such criminal behavior and much less to actually reward such criminal behavior as some here are recommending. I consider a mugging to be life threatning and as such I will do my best to stop such a threat with well aimed fire. More than one threat? Well then, I do my best to center hit however many may be involved in the mugging.

Rambo? Naaaaaaa, but not a sheep for the predators. Mind your own business but if mugged you've got to get mean...dog mean. Meaner than the mugger. Make yourself his worse nightmare. Go on the offensive long enough to end the threat.
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Old January 21, 2007, 06:11 PM   #15
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Sorry Jager1, but i already carry enough crap around, Im not adding a fake wallet to the mix.

Although I do agree with the comment about the police badge.
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Old January 21, 2007, 08:30 PM   #16
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A fake wallet full of explosives and rigged for command detonation might be good for a laugh- surprise Bozo! Ha Ha Ha!
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Old January 21, 2007, 08:43 PM   #17
Jager1
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Quote:
It must be a miserable feeling to live in such fear of the predators in our society to the extent of recommending submission to their antisocial and criminal demands. I'll not consider appeasement as an option.
Who is living in fear and recommending submitting or appeasing?

It's called surviving the encounter. Not being injured or killed over what's typically in your wallet. I am discussing a criminal that gets the drop on you. If I had a chance to draw, you bet I would. Two different animals, though.

Quote:
Sorry Jager1, but i already carry enough crap around, Im not adding a fake wallet to the mix.
Allow me to clarify. When I am forced to carry a larger amount of cash than usual, I place it elsewhere on my person than my wallet. Should I be caught unawares, the criminal may get my wallet with a reduced amount of cash, an ID, some grocery store discount cards and such. Easily replaced items. Credit cards, bank cards and the like might be best placed in a small card carrier separate from your wallet.

Just a suggestion.
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Old January 29, 2007, 04:31 AM   #18
miconoakisland
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Surprise!

I have never been in such a situation, so I don't know how I'd react.

BUT....I carry my P3AT in my right rear pocket and my money clip/ID holder in my RF pocket.

I may also have a IWB at 4:30.

It depends on the weapon displayed by the BG and how it's displayed.
It also depends on the demeanor of the BG.

Generally, the BG is gonna be more surprised by an armed citizen than I will be by the possible threat.

I could bring my weapon around my hip and fire at COM faster than he could recongnize that it's not a wallet and react, even if he has his firearm pointed sideways at me.

I assume if a BG has a weapon, he's willing to use it no matter what I do. If not me standing up to him, then who? Prison just makes him smarter. Continued success just emboldens him. No matter what, a bullet makes him think twice. If he survives, he's gonna think twice about doing it again. If he dies, he's gonna know the consequences of his ill-concieved actions and never do it to someone else.

Most violent crime is commited on those involved in illegal activity. Let's, as law-abiding citizens, keep it this way!

Write your legislators to stiffen sentences for violent felons and multiple
offenders instead of limiting the law-abiding!
There are already too many laws to limit firearms to the law-abiding! The problem is not appropiately locking up known criminals!
It always depends on each individual circumstance.
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Old January 29, 2007, 01:43 PM   #19
shooter71
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the fake wallet/money clip isnt a bad idea. [i carry a money clip that holds cards also]..take some fake money and wrap a $10 bill around it so it looks thick..if the perp is dumb enough to stand there and count it and see whats in the inside pocket well....bang dumbass!! you've just been shot , you should have taken it and ran off

in the winter times its a lot easier to carry stuff around, spare wallet , flashlight etc..but in the summer time its not so easy
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