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Old May 19, 2007, 04:06 PM   #1
douglasschuckert
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Renting Nfa, Baby Yea!!!!!

Ok.. I've been in the NFA world for a long time now. From being ex-military to hosting NFA shoots on my land in Alabama... But I wanted to ask you guys out there some questions while I wait on the official responses from the BATF&E.

1. What limitations (legally) exist pertaining to the rental of NFA items. According to the published gun laws, the ATF says rentals are ok, but nothing else.

2. Can a C2 SOT make a Post-sample machine gun and then rent it out?

3. I know they're several ranges out there that rent NFA, but nowhere can I find if its legal to rent post-samples or if the only weapons you can rent are transferable...

4. I saw this one range out of TX that said you could rent a Glock 18c (obviously post-sample), but a couple weeks later when I went on their website, the Glock 18c was now listed as 'unavailable'.

5. If an SOT rents out NFA, does the actual rental have to be at the place of business or can it be like any other Type 1 rental and be allowed off campus?

i.e. My business is out of my home, but I want to offer a rental service and shoot at my club.

Neither the CFR, 922, nor USC state the particulars of renting out weapons, nor do any of them differentiate between NFA and T1 items pertaining to renting.


Any of you have any ider?

Doug
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Old May 19, 2007, 05:07 PM   #2
Gunwiz
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BATF Rentals

We here at Shooters Express located just outside of Charlotte, NC do have an indoor pistol and rifle range and have a rental collection of 53 or so firearms including 2 full autos at the present time. Both of our autos are dealer samples. While I am still a novice in the NFA world, having only delt with this for 3 or so years, I know of nothing that says BATF rentals must be transferable, and as many visits as we have from the ATF, I believe I would have been informed of this by now. While we do have 2 Glock 18's at our range, we simply choose not to rent them to the public due to the fact that the average shooter cannot control the pistols and cause to much damage on the range. Not to mention that the 18 would slip into a range bag or pocket should someone not be watching. We do rent both a full auto H&K MP5 and a Colt SBR M16, both in 9mm. I am always looking for others to ad, but cost, maintance, ammo prices and safety are always issues.
By renting off campus, I am assuming you mean, letting them be shot at your outdoor range under suppervision. Again, I do not think this would be an issue so long as an authorized official is present with copies of the paperwork.
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Old May 19, 2007, 05:26 PM   #3
douglasschuckert
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Gunwiz!!!

You are correct in your assumptions... I will be obtaining my C2 SOT so I can smith other people's stuff and do internet sales out of my home, but I have a business membership to a NFA Range outside of Pensacola, FL, and want to be able to rent my SMGs to the Special Forces wanna-bes in all the Military schools in that town.

When I rent to these kids (I say kids because Im old), I or one of my employees (friends) will be with them.

I want to construct an MP5, M16, Glock 18, and others for rent (the more exotic like the G18 will have a stock and forward grip), and sale to LEO/Military Units...

Thank you for your advise!!!! I really appreciate it!

I read everything I could find on the applicable laws and they didn't have squat on rentals... I know type 1 rentals people can rent unsupervised for hunting or whatnot...


Question though...

1. How do you ensure the person renting the items are not fellons? Do you run a NICS check prior to?

2. What legal forms do you have in place to keep people from sueing if they get hurt on your property?

3. What insurance do you have or how do I go about gaining insurance that will cover this kind of liability?

douglasschuckert (at) hotmail (dot) com
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Old May 19, 2007, 10:04 PM   #4
shaggy
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There's nothing in the NFA or the regulations explicitly prohibiting renting NFA weapons, HOWEVER...

posties are ostensibly made for LE/mil sales and demonstration, not for rental for the enjoyment of the public. As far as I know BATFE has never made an issue of it, but there has been some question raised about the true legality of using posties for public rentals by some well respected manufacturers & dealers.

As to your other questions:

1. You can't run a NICS check for a rental - its for purchases only. You're going to have to use some judgement.

2. Liability waivers? Generally not worth the toilet paper they're written on. Any seasoned litigator will get around your liability waiver easily. Your best bet is to buy insurance. I know several manufacturer/dealers who will not rent weapons simply because of the liability aspect.

3. Get in touch with some insurers in your area and speak to an agent. Be sure to explain what you'd like to do, what activities you need to be covered, what sort of coverage you want, the amount of coverage, etc. Look at the policy to make sure it covers everything you need and you discussed with the agent. If you're going to be an 07/SOT you need to consider you'll be making a product and putting it into the stream of commerce and into people's hands - don't forget product liability (because if that M16/G18/HK/whatever you made goes KB, you should plan on getting sued). If you're going to do training or have employees handling weapons make sure you have insurance that covers them, and any act of negligence or stupidity, or even accidents they may do in the course of business.

Also - if you're thinking of going 07/SOT out of your home, check and make sure there is nothing in your zoning regs that prohibit manufacturing activities at your residence (because BATFE definitely will make sure you're in compliance with local zoning). And keep in mind that any part of the home that is used for the business becomes open to BATFE during a compliance inspection (sans warrant). One of the main reasons many people get a seperate business location for their FFL/SOT business.
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Old May 20, 2007, 12:23 AM   #5
raymond-
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Some local laws prohibit rentals of NFA items, specifically the possession or
use of them by non-owners. so do dilligence in reviewing the laws in your
area as well as to retain legal counsel. WA state does not currently allow
machine guns, yet there are hundreds of grandfathered firearms in this
category. Some of these owners have attempted to cash in on their
grandfathered status and the state has shut them down.
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Old May 20, 2007, 09:55 AM   #6
douglasschuckert
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Thanks Raymond!

Im in the Pensacola, FL area. There really isn't much in the way of weapons in Florida's statutes. They do not regulate NFA at all. Some of the other states that I've lived in, although they allow them, they make the person register them with the state's gov. Florida and Alabama (the two states that I will be working in) its not really an issue.

The waivers I am going to use will reference such as this:

1. Agreed that the renter has insurance... yadda yadda yadda...
2. Under no circumstance, due to failure of equipment, shall I sue.. yadda yadda...

I have my attorney looking into the possibilities of this and how to get around the problems that can arise. Basically if someone is stupid enough to rent an NFA item, then they are stupid enough to pay the penalties if they do something stupid or if something goes wrong.

Another good thing that I have going for me is the 'Southern Judge'. A no BS, no tree hugging, type of mentality. Not like what you find elsewhere, where Judges most commonly ignore legal agreements, and where common sense is no longer the rule but the exception.

We're also looking into the local laws pertaining to the same.
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Old May 20, 2007, 09:57 AM   #7
douglasschuckert
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Im in the Pensacola, FL area. There really isn't much in the way of weapons in Florida's statutes. They do not regulate NFA at all. Some of the other states that I've lived in, although they allow them, they make the person register them with the state's gov. Florida and Alabama (the two states that I will be working in) its not really an issue.

The waivers I am going to use will reference such as this:

1. Agreed that the renter has insurance... yadda yadda yadda...
2. Under no circumstance, due to failure of equipment, shall I sue.. yadda yadda...

I have my attorney looking into the possibilities of this and how to get around the problems that can arise. Basically if someone is stupid enough to rent an NFA item, then they are stupid enough to pay the penalties if they do something stupid or if something goes wrong.

Another good thing that I have going for me is the 'Southern Judge'. A no BS, no tree hugging, type of mentality. Not like what you find elsewhere, where Judges most commonly ignore legal agreements, and where common sense is no longer the rule but the exception.

We're also looking into the local laws pertaining to the same.
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Old May 20, 2007, 10:07 AM   #8
DonR101395
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I live in the Pensacola area also. What range are you using? Just curious since I didn't think there was another NFA range available after Guns4U closed.
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Old May 20, 2007, 01:54 PM   #9
douglasschuckert
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Guns4u??/

DAMN THAT SUCKS!!! The range that I wanted to use is now closed!!!! AHHHHH!!! Well that just means I will have to partner with another range or club in the area or purcahse a little bit of land and open a "Club". I might be able to partner with some other NFA nutts in the area, and we all start a Shooting Club on some land specifically designed towards NFA shooting.... A couple achers of land wont cost more than 30k, and if we all could come up with 6k down payment (combined) is wont be hard for the partnership (LLC) to purchase the land. After that a couple of weekends with a CAT and we can make dirt back drops, benches, and a covered firing line. All we need is 2 achers for a decient range. $37,000.00 total and there will be place for us all to shoot for the rest of our lives, and rent out our items. The range can and would pay for itself! Its an idea to be considered for a later time. There's lots of land available outside of city limits and a short drive away from Pensacola.
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Old May 20, 2007, 02:08 PM   #10
DonR101395
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Good luck with that, I haven't seen land in the area that cheap since about 92, unless you go further north of I-10. Anything south is either A. owned by developers or B. Owned by Eglin. The developers aren't giving up two acres for a shooting range or for $30,000.
Guns4U may open back up towards the end of the summer, I heard he was working a deal with Jay's at one time who is also a Class lll dealer. When I talked to him at the beginning of the year he was only allowing those with a lifetime pass to shoot and had the gun shop closed.
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Old May 20, 2007, 03:02 PM   #11
douglasschuckert
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Jay's...

HAHAH.. Thats Funny... Jay's is ripping people off on the NFA transfers. I've got several transfers in with them now, and I've paid for their SOT renewal. I really wish I was still in VA and could use my old SOT!! Jay's can charge that much because they're the only SOT in the area.... its still isn't right.

I know a LOT of SOT's out there and Jay's is the first that charges $100.00 per! WOW! Im going to get my SOT, and when I do Im sure as hell aint gonna charge $100.00 per transfer. Thats just rediculous. $100.00 fee for 3 forms (that the ATF provides free of charge - 2 F4's and 1 4473), and two entries into the bound-book... From start to finish 15 mins worth of effort...

I paid $35.00 for my first NFA transfer... and the typical SOT charges anywhere from $25.00 to $50.00 per. $100???? He's going to loose a LOT of NFA business when another player gets in the area.


As for the land... I dont see how 2 acres could cost more than $15/$20k per. Especially when the land would be outside of city limits.. I was thinking of something closer to the Alabama Border (up I-10). It wouldn't matter if it took 20/30/40 min drive to get to the shooting club (from say Chief's Way/Corry Station/NAS). NFA shooters/renters would travel that distance no prob. If things are close to how they were in 2003, isn't there a decient amount of land out past Cantonment (past the paper mill)? I haven't lived in Pensacola since 2003 when my wife was again, stationed there... but I cant see how we couldn't find a good deal on land somewhere. Hell it could even be in Alabama, and people would still come to rent/shoot NFA. I know there is cheap land available in LA.

You are right. the value of land between Gulf Shores and Ft. Walton has skyrocketed! My house near Perdido Key goes for about $365k. Granted its huge and in a great neighborhood, but due to the per-capita adverage salery in that area, $365k is expensive!

Don.. check your email.
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Old June 22, 2007, 08:43 PM   #12
douglasschuckert
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Renting..

Ok... Although Jay's is expensive, they are really really really good people! Now after dealing with them I dont think that I would have a problem with dealing with them again.

I've been overseas for the last long while, and on vacation actually went in and talked to them in person vise over the internet. I still dont like having to pay 100 bucks for an NFA transfer, but oh well... Until I get my SOT, I guess I'll pay it :-)




-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok... I need to know something!!! WHO OUT THERE IS ACTUALLY RENTING POST-SAMPLE NFA?

Jay's said that they know of a SOT that was arrested, prosecuted, and sentenced for renting post samples????
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Old June 22, 2007, 09:10 PM   #13
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Doug, If you are looking for a full auto range, talk to Miles Schuler at Tradewinds Gun and Pawn in Gulf Breeze (closer to navarre). He has sign ups for "such and such Muzzleoader club". The name is deceiving, but it is a full auto allowed range. I am pretty sure he klnows the owner of the range. He might be able to hook you up with whomever that is.
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Old June 22, 2007, 10:53 PM   #14
T. O'Heir
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"...like any other Type 1 rental and be allowed off campus?..." That'd be begging for trouble. Some guy rents your SMG and robs a bank, you're toast.
"...to pay the penalties if they do something stupid or if something goes wrong..." You'd likely get sued and lose your wee house even if you win. The legal costs would be staggering.
"... how do I go about gaining insurance that will cover this kind of liability..." Call your insurance agent.
"...I want to construct..." Seems to me it's illegal to manufacture FA firearms.
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Old June 23, 2007, 01:08 AM   #15
DonR101395
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Good call on Miles Trapp.
The name of the club is the Escambia River Muzzleloaders Club. I don't think it will allow full auto anymore, they were having some trouble with neighbors etc about a year ago. I could be wrong it's worth checking out.
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Old June 23, 2007, 08:14 PM   #16
douglasschuckert
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Thanks for the info..

Trapp... Thanks for the info on the range!!!

On another note:

The construction of FA's is completely legal when you're a C2 SOT. Im really beginning to wonder if the renting of them is...


Anyone who rents NFA, then hands it to them and lets them go about their way is stupid. If they're at a range under supervised conditions.... different story.




I will make some inquiries as to the legalities. I've been told that even if the ATf writes you a letter, they say that they can't be held liable for anything they tell you either in person or in writing... that it's in some sort of manual.... Im not quite sure if that would fly in a court...

I know the ATF has a bad rep, but I haven't seen any insidences in a long while where they witch-hunted someone... not since the Clinton Admin....


Anyone out there own a full auto range and rent Post-samples?

Doug
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http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!
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Old June 27, 2007, 01:27 PM   #17
fal308
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You might try http://www.nfatca.org/
This is an organization set up by/for FA collectors and enthusiasts. Hopefully, they can help out with any questions.
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