I'm thinking about getting a progressive for 9mm

[ghbucky]

I'm currently using a Lee 4 station turret press. I timed myself and I produce rounds at the rate of 2/minute.

I looked at a class I want to take and the round count is 600. That means I would need to sit on that press for 5 hours. I'm thinking a progressive should be able to do the same amount in a little over an hour.

So, what are the ins and outs of progressives? I know Lee makes one that seems to get mixed reviews. Any recommendations?

Are there hidden costs in these things?

[nhyrum]

I had the Lee 4 hole turret. I had the inline fabrication case kicker setup and used the auto drum measure, I could get about 350 rounds per hour for 9mm. So, you can crank the speed up on the Lee, should you desire.

I've since drank the blue Kool aid, and am hooked, and just amazed.

I upgraded about a year and a half ago to a Dillon 650. I can't speak for other progressives, but I love the Dillon. I don't shoot a ton, by some standards. Not spending as much time reloading is nice.

As for the "hidden costs" with the Dillon, most people think of the conversion kits. But, for me, the biggest one is the machine doesn't come with the case feeder, which, I ran without one for a while, but man was it nice to get one. They're not cheap either. You'll need extra toolheads too. So, for the 650, the extra costs are toolheads, conversion kits, and case feeder plates for every caliber.

Things that are nice to have are extra powder measures, so you don't have to switch everything out, and an extra primer system so you can just switch between small and large easier.

The Dillon isn't the only way to load faster, just what I have experience with. And for what the classic 4 hole turret is, it can be quite the impressive setup. I think I had just over 200 bucks into mine and it was 65% the speed of the Dillon

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[Unclenick]

I'm not sure how hidden they are, but there are costs. If 9 mm is the only chambering you will load this way, the Dillon Square deal is a good machine that comes already set up, so adjusting the seating die for your bullets and the powder measure to throw your charges are all you need to do to get started. However, it uses special non-standard compact dies, so if you want to change the caliber, you have to buy Dillon's dies along with the different powder actuator/flaring tube and the different shell holder plate and buttons. As a result, a caliber conversion kit is $100. Also, the press throat and special dies limit it to handgun and straight-wall carbine cartridges.

The Dillon 550C is about $50 more than the Square Deal if you buy it with a caliber conversion, but no dies (so you have to set it up). It can be bought with no caliber conversion for about what the Square Deal Costs if you already own some conversions and just want to keep a second press set up and ready to go. You have to index the 550C's rotary shell holder with your thumb rather than it indexing automatically, as the Square Deal does, but it uses standard dies, so they standard conversion kit does not include dies and, as a result, costs $53. The 550C throat is big enough to accommodate most rifle cartridges up to the 460 Weatherby, so you can load almost anything on it that uses standard dies. It has removable tool heads so you can buy extra ones to be able to leave your dies set up on them, and then only have to change the shell plate and retaining buttons for a different size case head.

Personally, I like the manual indexing of the 550C because you can raise and lower the ram and check everything without the shell plate moving or an indexing pawl jamming you up. You usually don't need that unless something doesn't feel right. But when that happens—say, a primer doesn't feel like it seated normally—the ability to operate the ram and remove the case retaining button and slip the case out to check it before the powder is dropped in is a plus. It also means you can use it like a single-stage press when you need to. I've used mine with a bullet puller in that fashion. Mainly, you control the pace entirely by the speed of your efforts, making it is a good choice for a first-time progressive user.

I have a Square Deal dedicated to 45 Auto that I got in the late '80s, and it has worked well. With me loading cases and primers from pre-filled primer tubes and operating the handle and my wife feeding bullets for me, we once turned out 250 rounds of 45 Auto for a match I was late to in about 12½ minutes on the Square Deal. I think the 550C would have got up to about the same speed if I'd had one then, and she was also advancing the indexer.

DISCLAIMER: I am not recommending you marry just to have a bullet feeder or indexer, though if you are looking for that one last reason to push you over the top…

Other brands include the Lee you mentioned. Many people like it, but also say you need to be prepared to spend time tweaking it and that your tweaks work loose after a few hundred rounds, cutting down the overall production speed. But I don't have personal experience with anything but their old progressive shotshell loader, so I can't speak to the new machine.

Others prefer the Hornady LNL machine. It has five stations instead of four, which I like the idea of, since that will let you install a lockout die or other powder check die to make sure you don't get an empty or an over-charged case in it. Others like the RCBS machines. Others like the old Star machines and rebuilt ones are available from Star Machine's new owner. But I don't own any of those, so I can't speak about them adequately.

There are bigger and more expensive Dillons, but I wouldn't start out that way.

[ghbucky]

Thank you for the detailed response, UN!

Question: Lee's literature makes a big deal out of the primer feeding system and says the tube loaders are dangerous for handling primers.

I'm guessing that this isn't really an issue, since there are several brands that do that?

[Twinsig]

I recently upgraded from single to 4-hole turret.. that was a big jump in production! And works great for my needs.
Question is, how many classes are you going to take?
Are these classes occurring frequently?
Is your spare/load time limited? I typically run 100 maybe 200 in an evening after work.
Could you use those funds for supplies and postpone the upgrade for a while?
Just playin devils advocate. (Or maybe the wife) bwaaahaaahaa

[nhyrum]

I haven't had a primer tube detonation... Yet. But I have heard stories. Not sure exactly what causes them, but, a string of 100 primers all dropping right in top of each other, from about a foot and a half, isn't the safest way. Dillon addressed this in the 750 update, and, it didn't go well. I've heard about lots of issues. Kind of like when Lee went to those awful triangle primer trays from the round ones

I just wear hearing and eye protection, and be cognizant of what could happen and try to position myself in a safe way.

I would go with a 650/750 over a 550 personally. It's exactly what I did. I was in your position. The 550 has its place, and there's nothing wrong with it, I just didn't like the manual index, although unclenick nailed the frustrations if dealing with issues on an auto index. I didn't see the point of going from a kinda-sorta progressive to a slightly more kinda sorta progressive

I don't shoot a ton, by certain standards. But what getting the 650 allowed me to do was spend less time loading, more time elsewhere. Not that I dislike loading. I love it. But with family, work, and school demands in life, it's nice to be able to knock out a few hundred rounds for a match in much less time. I would argue that, regardless if you shoot 20 rounds every 3 months to 2000 rounds a week (or more) a progressive is equally as great an investment in time savings


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[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by ghbucky

So, what are the ins and outs of progressives? I know Lee makes one that seems to get mixed reviews. Any recommendations?

Actually, Lee makes three different progressive presses: The Pro 1000, the Pro 4000, and the Loadmaster. The Pro 1000 is a 3 station press, so if you currently use Lee's Factory Crimp Die -- you can't use it on the Pro 1000. The Loadmaster is their top-of-the line press and, when properly adjusted and tuned, it works as well as the Hornady Lock-n-Load AP or the Dillon 550. The Pro 4000 is Lee's newest press, and it seems to be getting good reviews. If I didn't already have two Loadmasters I would probably already have bought a Pro 4000.

The biggest issue with all the progressive presses -- of all manufacture -- is priming. I prime off the press. It's slower, but I know what I'm getting. I have a friend who has a Hornady Lock-n-Load AP, and his biggest complaint is -- priming.

[rodfac]

The Loadmaster is their top-of-the line press and, when properly adjusted and tuned, it works as well as the Hornady Lock-n-Load AP or the Dillon 550.

The Loadmaster I had ten years ago was a nightmare...maybe they've improved over the years but: the shell feed needed constant adjustment, the plastic primer feeding assemblies broke one after another...six in total till I finally retired the press. Too, the powder measure, which used disc's to dispense, limited the loads I was interested in. I gave it away to a fellow shooter who's probably cursed me for the gift!

By way of experience: I've loaded my own ammunition since 1962 on several presses starting with a Herter's $13 Model 3, a superbly precision Harrell turret, the aforementioned(cursed) Loadmaster, and finally, a pair of Dillon 550B's which I now use for all my handgun loading. One is set up permanently for small primers and the other for large.

They're truly marvelous presses, easy to set up, speedy for quantity QUALITY ammunition, and worth every penny of its cost. Caliber changes are a 5 minute operation....I'd conservatively estimate I've loaded 75,000 rounds on them in the last ten years with ZERO parts breakage. I lost a positioning pin for my 9mm setup and a call to Dillon had the part back to me in 3 days...no charge.

As to model, I'm satisfied with my 550's, and never needed the increased capacity of the 650's to feed a weekly IDPA etc. handgun game habit. Too, I like the 550's ability to be used as a single station press while working up loads. Don't know if the 650 (et al) is as useful.

My advice is save your money, buy a Dillon and you'll NEVER be disappointed. Their customer service is the very best in the industry. Best regards, Rod

[TruthTellers]

I think 500 per hour is unrealistic on any progressive, not unless you've got case and bullet feeders set up and that costs money. 300 is more realistic, 250 if you're doing the occasional powder check.

Check out the Lee Auto Breech Lock Pro before you decide on a more expensive progressive. If you're not planning to change caliber, I see no reason not to get the Lee, its weakness is in quick changeovers.

[Geezerbiker]

I have no regrets about buying a Dillon 550 about 20 years ago. At the time I had to mount it on a sheet of plywood and clamp it to the dining table when I wanted to use it since I had no dedicated reloading space.

When I first bought my M1911, I also bought a box of 500 cast bullets. I loaded them 50 at a time over the next 3 or 4 months. The next couple boxes of 500 took about the same amount of time to load. When I bought my Dillon 550, I loaded 500 rounds over a weekend while learning how to set up and use the press. I've never timed myself so I can't say how many per hour and I tend to work at a leisurely pace but I'm more than happy with the results.

While one can load rifle rounds with the RL550, I've never considered doing that. However I found that I could use the .45 ACP shell holder to prime .30-06 brass. I leave out the tool head and my RL550 turns into a big priming station... I think I could use the 9mm shell holder to prime .223 and .300 blackout but I've never tried.

Tony

[Unclenick]

TruthTellers,

No, it just takes two people. As I described in my first post, my wife and I hit a rate of 1200/hour as a team and not counting primer tube loading (there are a few automatic primer tube loaders out there now to prevent that taking up much of the reloader's time). A friend of mine who has a Dillon 1050 with a case feeder but no bullet feeder and who does have the Dillon primer tube loader, working as a team with me managing primers and powder and him feeding bullets and working the handle, we completed 1800 rounds of 45 Auto on it in 45 minutes, and repeated that feat three nights running, shooting it all up during the day. So it's doable, even counting clearing an occassional upside-down case that comes through the feeder and into the tube, which was part of the bargain.


Ghbucky,

The late Richard Lee's book, Modern reloading (2nd ed) has quite a bit on primer concatenated ignition in the Lee primer feed trays. It has occassionally happened in other brand's feed tubes. As near as anyone can tell, it is probably due to priming mix dust accumulating in the tubes, and running a swab wet with alcohol through one of the tubes that hasn't been cleaned for many moons reaveals that dust. The alcohol-soaked swab is also the way to clean them. If ignition in the tubes were a common event, neither Dillon nor Lyman nor anyone else with feed tubes would have survived the lawsuits. The Dillon presses have a heavy blast tube around the primer feeder itself, to protect from ignition due to the machine mashing a sideways primer, and that protection is effective, as some photos I've seen prove. So primers going off in the pickup tubes is the main risk. Keep them clean. Wearing eye and hearing protection during reloading is a good idea in any event.

[kmw1954]

My thoughts. You really do not provide much input for need or usage other than a class that will require you to produce 600 rounds. So is that a one time deal or do you plan on following up with that pace? What do you think will be your normal volume of reloads? High volume, medium volume frequently or is this going to be just an occasional thing. For example I may load 500 rounds in 9mm and not load again for a couple months or I may load a few hundred rounds every other month. It all boils down to how much I get to shoot.

If this is going to be an occasional low to medium volume use press I would highly suggest the Lee Pro4000 ABLP. The press and a shell plate will get you started, Lee dies with a Lee Auto Drum measure for 9mm will really speed things along and do it for under $200.00

I bought a Lee Pro4000 for the sole intention of loading 45acp to be able to add the Lee Carbide FCD, otherwise I would have just stayed with the Pro1000 that I primarily use for 380, 9mm, 38/357, 45acp when loading cast bullets.

The Pro4000 is actually a hybrid of the Lee Turret press and the Lee Pro1000. The ease of priming like the turret press with the speed of the progressive. So really if you are looking at loading less than 1k a month this is what I would buy. But if you are looking to load more than 1k a month then I'd look elsewhere.

[Geezerbiker]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

TruthTellers,

No, it just takes two people. As I described in my first post, my wife and I hit a rate of 1200/hour as a team

Dude you're my hero. You can get your wife to help with reloading. That's epic...

Tony

[Jim Watson]

If 9mm is all you want to load, the Square Deal B is just about perfect.
I found it to have insufficient leverage to seat large primers in .45 ACP unless the pockets were "uniformed" which is more work than I am willing to do on bulk pistol ammo. So I splurged on a 1050 for that.

Circumstances found me with a 550 replacing the SDB. It is nearly as good as the SDB for 9mm but is easier to convert for other calibers.

I don't feel a need for bullet feeders, primer fillers, power steering, or an apprentice staging components. But then I am not feeding a USPSA A class habit, either.
I don't set up on the machine and load a case of ammo in one session. More like every time I go through the shop, I take a few minutes to load a hundred, then go do something else.

[GE-Minigun]

March of 2019 I loaded 3k worth of 9mm in just under 3 hrs, including all primer, powder and brass refills on a Dillon 650...have done the same amount in 45 as well. I've mentioned on other boards that years ago I used to load for 4 people and seriously looked into getting a 1050 and after running a buddy's it didn't make sense, as I was getting the same numbers as I was getting out of the 650. I'd look for used, their out there, just takes some looking, as for some reason people are wanting the new 750, which to me is a down grade.

[lee n. field]

Originally Posted by ghbucky

I'm currently using a Lee 4 station turret press. I timed myself and I produce rounds at the rate of 2/minute.

I looked at a class I want to take and the round count is 600. That means I would need to sit on that press for 5 hours. I'm thinking a progressive should be able to do the same amount in a little over an hour.

So, what are the ins and outs of progressives? I know Lee makes one that seems to get mixed reviews. Any recommendations?

Are there hidden costs in these things?

if you go with Lee, get the Breech Lock Pro (AKA Pro 4000). I've had both the Pro 1000 and Loadmaster, and given up on both. (The Pro 1000 has been redesigned since, and now uses the same base and frame as the Breech Lock Pro and "Value Turret". I've seen no reviews on the new version.)

You'll be somewhat faster with the BLP/Pro4K, but I find I still need to pay close attention to what's going on.

Personally, I like the manual indexing of the 550C because you can raise and lower the ram and check everything without the shell plate moving or an indexing pawl jamming you up.

The Breech Lock Pro can be made manual indexing, by removing the indexing rod.

The biggest issue with all the progressive presses -- of all manufacture -- is priming. I prime off the press. It's slower, but I know what I'm getting. I have a friend who has a Hornady Lock-n-Load AP, and his biggest complaint is -- priming.

And the biggest complaint about the Breech Lock Pro/Pro4000 is....you guessed it!....priming. Feeding the primer into the system is done manually with the Lee Safety Prime, and there's a bit of technique and adjustment to getting that to work reliably. That's probably the thing that slows the system down the most.

The Loadmaster I had ten years ago was a nightmare...maybe they've improved over the years but: the shell feed needed constant adjustment, the plastic primer feeding assemblies broke one after another...six in total till I finally retired the press.

Lee's constantly been tweaking design of the primer feed. Yeah, I gave up on that pretty quickly.

Too, the powder measure, which used disc's to dispense, limited the loads I was interested in. I gave it away to a fellow shooter who's probably cursed me for the gift!

Check out their Autodrum measure.

Also, on one of the Book of Faces Lee groups folks were microadjusting the Autodisk by drilling a hole in the side of one of the cavities and using a set screw or small threaded bolt to tweak the capacity. (I never felt the need to do that.)

[Nathan]

First, i don’t load that fast. I have a Hornady LNL where I handle every case and every bullet. I can load 1-200 on my progressive per hour....maybe more. I can load 50/hr on my single stage per hour, I figure.

I’m missing a hand which slows the process, but i do know what is smooth/efficient. .....other than the hand thing, I record too much data. I measure every ~50th round for like case length, primer flushness, powder charge, oal, crimp, fit to gage.

I like progressive because I can load for a couple hours, take a as 1/2 hour break and jump back in.

[ghbucky]

I see a lot of love here for the Dillon 650, and some shade being thrown at the 750.

What are the gripes on the 750?

[AzShooter]

Get a Dillon 750 and don't look back. You can produce your 600 rounds in under an hour. I've been loading on a 650 with case feeder and bullet feeder for the last few years and can reach well over 800 quality rounds in an hour.

It's worth the extra money. I can send more time on the range and with my family.

[ghbucky]

Another follow up question: I really, really like my Lee factory crimp die. Is there any issue using it in station 5 on a Dillon 750?

Leaning pretty hard in that direction right now.

[AzShooter]

No problems at all with the Lee factory crimp die on the 750.

[Unclenick]

Ghbuky,

With the 750 they changed the priming system to match that of the 550 and SDB. Apparently the rotary priming they worked out for the 650 caused some folks to have problems. There was also a popular bullet feeder that worked with the 650 but couldn't fit in the new arrangement. I assume they've addressed that by now, but don't know.

The advantage to the 1050 on priming is it has a primer pocket swager that swages every case on the way in, so you don't have to do anything to your military brass. The primer seats to a fixed depth below flush with the case head that you can set, and unlike the other Dillon presses, seats on the downstroke like the other operations. In effect, this is a production machine, so the whole notion of seating on the low-leverage top-stroke so you can feel the primer seating, is not attempted on it. It doesn't really work anyway. I've always just had to shove the levers forward fairly hard to be sure of good seating.

[ghbucky]

The advantage to the 1050 on priming is it has a primer pocket swager that swages every case on the way in

Wow, that is nice... but that price tag.

[BJung]

I have hesitated buying any Dillon ONLY because I don't like following a crowd. That said, the majority of IPSC shooters use this press which has a lot to say about it.

The progressive press I've been looking at was the Hornady. Would anyone disagree? I've read that Lee progressive presses require a lot of tinkering.

I own an RCBS Piggyback. It's novel but sucks as a progressive press. Any lack of oil or powder flake jams it up. I haven't used it in decades but maybe it gets 50-100/hour and have to help turn the plate by hand. I'd suggest this press to someone I really despise.

[ghbucky]

One thing that I do like about the Hornady is an option for a bullet feeder.

I'm not sure if that is an option with Dillon? They sell a Mr. Bullet feeder, but I'm not clear if it works on any of their presses, or only on the discontinued 650