Dream setup - 5.6 x 45 NATO, 7.6x51 NATO & 6.8 SPC

[dornjmd]

Hey guys,

I'm looking to set up a top notch reloading station for 223, 308 and 6.8. Help me out here. What would you get. I have my eyes on the following:

All RCBS
An ultrasonic cleaner
A bench mounted primer pocket swager (I have a lot of “military style” brass already)
A trim pro power case kit
A Pro 2000 progressive auto indexing press
A .22 and .3 bullet feeder. (do they make one that will handle the 6.8?)
A powder checker
A primer strip loader
A charge master combo
Powder funnel
Bullet feed die (do I need one for each caliber?)


I'm missing a bunch I know. I'd like to be able to do a fairly easy switch between calibers without needing to redial all the odds and ends. Other than the appropriate dyes, cases, primers, bullets and lubricants do I need a powder measure for each?

I like the setup from one of the youtube videos where they seat the bullet originally with a backed out RCBS die and then a final seat with a redding competition die.

Are there any parts you'd switch out? Why?

Thanks in advance.

JD

[DASHZNT]

DILLON.. Theyre the best hands down. Get one and you will know why.

DASHZNT

[Eppie]

I've also a bit new at this (a couple of years) and I only reload .308 at first I wanted to shoot a lot and then the high precision/long range bug bit me.

The thing you want to avoid is buying twice the cheap tool that doesn't work, and then the goodone that does.

I tried a ultrasonic cleaner and I found it to be a waste of time and money, but if you want to go that route send me a message and I'll sell you mine cheap (its just sitting in the garage). If you are near an Harbor Freight store you can buy a vibratory cleaner and media for half price or less than what they sell is at gun stores/web sites.

I have Hornady LnL AP press and I can truly say that it doesn't work the way they show you on Youtube videos, so forget that!!! It's just plain marketing/lies. Having said that, I still think the progressive press is the way to go.

I also bought the Hornady Case Prep center and I think that it is a very good system that combines alot of funtion in a small footprint. It could be improved but it is workable. This I think is the best piece of equiment I have that saves me time and effort.

I would forget the Chargemaster, it is expensive instead use ball powder with a powder measure on your pprogressive press. Ball powder flows like water and I get +/-one tenth of a grain, with 80% right on ther money. Instead, buy a really good beam scale to check your loads. I started with a Hornady electronic, but eventually moved to RCBS 1010 scale.

Forget the powder cop/check. If you really want one, I'll sell you my Hornady powder cop. For rifle cases it is impossible to double cahrge your case, although you may occasionally fail to load one.

Having said all the above, the most important thing you need is a couple of good books to get you started. Without those forget the whole thing.

[toolguy2006]

What exactly are you looking to do? If its long range precision, I'd say that you are on the right track, though I would spring for some better dies and a better trimmer. Also, for long range stuff you will probably end up wanting a way to turn necks, correct primer pockets, and uniform flash holes.

If its more about high round count, you might want to look at a Dillon, and a tumbler instead of the ultra sonic.

As far as the ultra sonic goes, I love mine and would never go back to not having one. It doesn't replace my tumbler, and its slow as hell, but it gets the cases absolutely squeaky clean inside and out.

[dornjmd]

Well, let me put it this way.

I'd really like the ability to do high precision shooting.

I don't really intend on going out and putting 30K rounds through my 6.8 annually. That said, I have quite a few stupid friends who want to tag along and put heavy volume through the other two calibers. I think that secretly they just like to hear the bang.

The 30K rounds may be a bit excessive for an estimate, but I'll definitely be over 10K rounds per year between the three calibers.

So, basically, I want something where I can take my time and load a few thousand "precision" rounds per year for myself, or reduce the powder load by 15% or so for safety and blast out 10K or so rounds for them.

Thanks for the info on the Hornady, and I've used Dillan when my dad owned his gun store. I wasn't the biggest fan although it could turn out pistol ammo right quick.

[toolguy2006]

Sounds like a progressive of some sort is what you'll want, unless you have a LOT of time!

You may want to consider a tumbler of one sort or another instead of the ultra sonic cleaner. With the volume that you are talking about, you'll die of old age waiting on the ultra sonic!

[dornjmd]

Definitely progressive...

The question is, when it comes down to specifics, what parts am i missing?

If you had to set up a press for those requirements (some precision and a lot of bulk load plinkers) what would you use?

I'm not saying I'm going to buy everything on the list, but having never reloaded rifle ammo before I'm at a bit of a loss. There is a world of difference between loading 9mm reloads accurate to 25 yards and 6.8 accurate to 600 or 1000 yards.

[Eppie]

dornjmd,
If you want to shoot accurately you need to get the Sierra book, I'm using it like a bible. I keep going over it and fine new gold nuggets and wandering on how I missed it the first time I read it. If I only could afford one book that would be it. It's actually a 3 ring binder. Highly recommended.

The book will tell you everything that you need to have to get started and things that you will want to have after you've started.

Can't sit here and write the book for you.

I assume you read the posting at the top of the reloading section if not do it.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230171

[Unclenick]

Dornjmd,

Sounds like you have some research to do. You said you want to get a Chargemaster combo then asked if you needed a powder measure for each chambering. The Chargemaster is an automatic powder charge weighing machine that serves as the powder measure, but it's a slow way to dispense charges and will be the bottleneck in your operation because you'll be standing there waiting for twenty or thirty seconds after each pull of the press handle while it weighs out the next charge for each round. For a progressive press you want a conventional volumetric measure that can keep up with the speed of the press operation, and a regular scale for adjusting the measure. Still better is a powder measure with either a micrometer adjustment so you can repeatably set it back to a setting for another powder, or with swapable dispensing tubes, like the Quick Measure with its progressive press adapter, so you can leave the tubes preadjusted.

You want to load for your friends? For liability reasons I would never reload for anyone else. Besides, if you figure a barrel will be shot out in 3,000 to 6,000 rounds, letting them run that much ammo through your guns will get expensive from a barrel replacement gunsmithing standpoint. Let them learn to take their own risks with their own weapons, though you can certainly teach them to load on your machine if you trust them with it.

If you are planning only on precision rifle shooting for yourself, I would reconsider loading progressively as you'll want to stop after sizing to do trimming and cleaning and case prep (crimp removal) before completing assembly of the round. I prefer working on the Forster Co-ax press for precision ammunition, especially for long range. I believe it's currently used by more rifle match winners shooting handloads than any other press due to the self-aligning the die holding method and the lateral mobility of the shell holder plates allow. It makes some very straight ammo. That's a press where the Chargemaster can work out in terms of timing because that's all a slower batch or serial process. But that's your call.

I don't know what the benefit of going from an RCBS sizer to the Redding Competition Seater is supposed to be, but it may be counterproductive. I'd have to measure it to see. If the RCBS starts the bullet in crooked, then the Redding may not be able to fully straighten it back out. I would just use the Redding. It's slower to get your fingers in and out from under the sleeve, but there is no conflict in alignment possible. Also, the plain RCBS seater is not bad. If you get a Lyman M die to provide a step flare that lets you seat the bullet straight in the case mouth before starting into the RCBS die, you might find you had about the same result for less tool money.

A 15% drop in plinking load powder charge may or may not be too much, depending on the powder. In some powders that could make the case fill too low and make ignition and pressure erratic. Even if it's OK, that big a drop in charge can lower pressure by more than a third, and with some powders that will make them burn a lot dirtier and less efficiently, fouling the gas systems in exchange for saving a little throat erosion. I would stay with a starting load appropriate for your case and brass. Not knowing where in the range your best accuracy loads will land, I can't say how much reduction that will be. Possibly rather less than 10%.

[Eppie]

Dornjmd,
Listen to Unclenick, he's probably forgotten more than the two of us are going to learn.

[BigD_in_FL]

No where in your first post do I see a SCALE or reloading MANUALS

[mjes92]

1. Military brass with crimped primer pockets = Dillon swager (a must have)

2. Forget the Ultrasonic. I have one and dont use it. Went back to tumbler.

3. If you have the budget I recommend the Dillon 550 series and up for high quantity reloading on those specific calibers. Not only for the press but also the dies. They have a lot of nice design features for the money.

4. Seating die, Go with "Bullet Drop in" type to save on fatige/pinching. It will happen. (If money is no object)

5. A good scale is you best friend.

6. Reloading manual, "READ IT"

7. If I had to do it all over I would have spent more money on case prep equipment. Its not as critical for Semi-auto's. Case prep is a pain. I like the Hornady powered trim and prep station. Hope to get one myself some day.

Good luck

[dornjmd]

Unclenick THANK YOU. That’s the type of advice I’m looking for. Some of what I meant to type was misunderstood, but regardless the info is wonderful.

The misunderstanding was mainly about the charge master pro. I had intended using that for powder measure and dispensing for trial runs with the precision bullets. I had meant getting multiple powder feeders on the progressive press once the right load is dialed in for each caliber. I’ve never changed a caliber on a press before as I was too young when I was helping my father reload pistol plinkers. I had thought you needed to change the powder measure too. I was unaware that the measures had such fine adjustments. I had thought they were a pain in the butt to set up.

That is very fair advice on reloading for friends. I will highly consider it and in all likelihood follow suit. It’ll save me money by having them buy their own ammo anyways. I may even get to keep their brass.

I’m not planning on doing ONLY precision. I enjoy plinking with the best of them. I’m a fairly decent shot at 300 yards and I’d like to push myself to 600 and eventually to 1000. Even so, I still like hitting tannernite from time to time. I’m a bit wary of locking myself into a single stage press at the moment. It wouldn’t surprise me if I go that route as I become a better shot.

I know I’ll need the pocket swagger and trim pro power case, however, I was also under the impression that you could prep your cases (sized, trimmed and deburred inside and out) before you put the shells on a progressive press. Is this an incorrect assumption? If so, why? This alone may push me towards that single stage press.

The benefit from going to a RCBS dye to the redding precision set was simply for a more precise setting (this is based only on the youtube video). I’m hearing from your response that while it may get the depth right, it may not get seated correctly. That, in and of itself, is reason NOT to have the RCBS -> Redding setup. If it costs me a bit of extra time, so be it.

The 15% number was randomly thrown out there for safety reasons and nothing more. I’ll consult the bibles before loading anything. I already have some of the books mentioned previously in my Amazon cart. I plan on reading them before I load my first round.

I didn’t list some stuff like dye wrenches because I had taken them as given.

May I ask your opinion on the hornady lock and load dye settings? Are they worth their salt? If not, how do you recommend changing dyes for each caliber without having to redial everything?

Once again, thank you for the information. I truly appreciate it. If you have anything else to offer I’m all ears.

Thanks so much,

JD

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by JD

I was also under the impression that you could prep your cases (sized, trimmed and deburred inside and out) before you put the shells on a progressive press. Is this an incorrect assumption? If so, why? This alone may push me towards that single stage press.

This depends on how you load. The problem is that case growth occurs mainly during resizing, so trimming before resizing won't get the case down to final size. In the gun the case expands to fill the chamber. When you insert it into a sizing die, the die narrows the brass, lengthening it, then pushes the shoulder back, leaving the excess brass looking for someplace to go, so it goes into the neck. Below is an exaggerated illustration I made:



As a result of the above, if you trim before you size, you have to trim extra. Unfortunately each case has some variations in brass thickness and work hardening, etcetera, so they don't all grow the exact same amount. In. .308 I've see, from the same lot of cases I loaded identically, one case grows none, another grows 0.005" (an average result with my loads) and another grows 0.010". So if you trim fired cases before sizing, even if you trim them enough so the longest case is not longer than the SAAMI case maximum, you will have length variation afterward. That isn't going to matter as long as you don't crimp or only crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die. But it you try to crimp into a bullet cannelure with the crimp shoulder in a seating die, you will find your crimps are uneven.

Another approach to solve that problem is to use the RCBS X-die, for which you trim the cases to minimum just once, then the die design prevents growth back to beyond typical trim length.

The other factor in when you size is whether or not you clean the primer pockets when you clean the cases. For handgun accuracy this is not required. At rifle precision levels it doesn't matter much to accuracy until you are at a maximum precision level. If it builds enough it can affect primer ignition force some by cushioning the primer anvil feet a little. There is also an interesting argument by a former Aberdeen Proving Ground Test Director that the hardened carbon in fired cases and primer pockets contributes to a significant degree to barrel throat erosion. One of the advantages to depriming before cleaning and running through the press is that all the primer dust stays out of the rotating shell holder mechanism of the progressive presses.

So I think it's worth getting at least the bulk of primer residue out when cleaning. That means depriming the case before cleaning. You want to clean before sizing to remove dirt and grit that could scratch your sizing die, so if you allow the sizing die to deprime the case, you will miss cleaning the primer pocket in a progressive loading sequence. What I use is a Lee Universal De-priming Die on a separate small aluminum single stage press to remove primers before initial cleaning. After resizing I trim and clean case lube off before continuing, but you can clean loaded rounds if you are not interrupting the loading flow.

Originally Posted by JD

The benefit from going to a RCBS dye to the redding precision set was simply for a more precise setting (this is based only on the youtube video). I’m hearing from your response that while it may get the depth right, it may not get seated correctly.

Since you didn't put a link to the video in, I didn't realize that you were not talking about using a conventional RCBS seating die, but rather that you were talking about the one that is part of their automatic bullet feeder. That's a bit different. My concern was that if you were to seat the bullet most of the way with a conventional seating die and it did not start the bullet in concentrically enough, you would have added runout even with the Redding die. However, now that I found the Brownells video (I assume this is the one you watched), I think that if you set the bullet feeder's seating die up so the bullet only goes in far enough not to fall out on its way to the Redding die, you will be fine with that setup.

If you don't use the bullet feeder, though, the Redding die will be all you need and you will just feed bullets to it with your fingers as the case comes to that station on the press. I would not use one of the open window RCBS competition seaters as it will not give you concentricity equal to what the Redding die produces. You can see a review of that here, wherein the Vickerman die shown is the open window type. The RCBS one, specifically, was actually outperformed by a standard RCBS seating die when compared by John Feamster (Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, Precision Shooting Pub., 1995, p. 140).

Originally Posted by JD

how do you recommend changing dyes for each caliber without having to redial everything?

Did you note how the part of the press that holds everything except the priming and powder dispensing station is a white metal and not green? That's because it's a removable aluminum casting called the die plate. You can buy a separate die plate for each caliber you use and leave all the dies set up on it. The powder measure is used for them all, so it stays put. You can see the pins that locate die plate being inserted in illustration 10 on page 5 of the press instructions. Changing primer size and powder measure actuator tube done there. I recommend you read that whole manual to see what changing calibers involves.

By the way, that video left station 2 of the press unused. RCBS makes a lube applicator die that you can put in where the sizing die is in the video, and then the sizing die is put in station 2.

[dornjmd]

Unclenick,

Once again, thank you for the education.

I LOVE the schematic.

You've probably saved me several hundred dollars in unnecessary equipment.

You've basically answered all my questions for the time being. Can I recreate an equipment list and go through the process one more time? Is this at all helpful for others to read or should it be done offline?

I don't want to clutter the board.

Thanks again,

Jared

[Unclenick]

You're welcome. Do read the sticky on reloading equipment for newbies just so you don't duplicate that. If you have questions it doesn't cover, then others will be interested, too, so putting those up here will be useful.

[hooligan1]

Hey doorjam what's a "powder checker"?

[Unclenick]

It's a die that has a probe that touches the top of the powder column to see how high it is. If it's too high or too low for a good charge weight, it either sounds an alarm or mechanically stops the press from advancing until you fix the problem.

[hooligan1]

Oh I see, it's a gizmo for a progressive. I don't have that kind of press, mines a Lyman "Orange Crusher", so my powder checker is my right eye. (I just wanted the OP to tell me what he called a powder checker).
Thanks Unclenick.

[dornjmd]

Yup, the powder check is exactly as Unclenick has said. There is a neat one made by Dillon. I like the idea to double check my eyes. They are still pretty good, but when dealing with bullets it’s always a good idea to double check.

So, here is stab two and keep in mind this is more of a dream setup idea rather than exactly what I’m going to get. I haven’t priced all this out so I may look at the sticker and go HOLY…

Stage 1, Depriming: A small press, likely single stage for depriming only. Something like a rock chucker with a Lee Universal Depriming and Decapping Die. I chose this since it indicates it can take cases before they have been cleaned for cases from .22 to .550. I’ll also be able to use this as a single stage press for precision loading.

Stage 2, Swagging: The RCBS Primer Pocket Swagger. Can do .22 and larger.

Stage 3, Cleaning: I still haven’t figured out the best way to do this. I know the normal method is a vibrating tumbler with either walnut or corn cob. I’m leaning towards the rotating tumblers with stainless steel as they are supposed to get things, including the primer pockets, exceptionally clean without releasing heavy metals into the air. My problem there is the small load size. I can always do the cement mixer route, but that seems just a bit (read extreme) overkill. Is there a good source to compare and contrast the various cleaning methods? I’ve only been able to find promotional materials and having been in sales myself I’ve learned to take those with a grain of salt.

Stage 4, The Press: I’m still thinking RCBS Pro 2000 Progressive with a bullet feeder. I do plan on backing out the dye all the way so it just barely seats the bullet (like we discussed previously)

First station, Priming: I believe the press comes with the APS priming system. So I get the strips either preloaded or load them myself. I may do the tube conversion kit. Also, I need your opinion here. If I have already deprimed the cases before I cleaned them, can I still use the lube dye you mentioned in this station, or will the lube get everywhere when being applied?

Second station, Sizing: I’ll use the x-dye here 223, 308. I don’t know what I’m going to do with the 6.8 yet, although I believe I can do the .277 set. I don’t see an x-die specifically for 6.8. I’m also a bit confused with the entire small base qualification on the 308. Lastly, when using the x-die they say to trim the case a certain amount below specs. In my research since you mentioned it, nobody has specified if this is brand new brass or once fired brass.

Third station, Powder load: Nuff said. I learned through your earlier post that there is a micro adjustment here. If it is not included in the RCBS kit, I’ll get a powder dispenser with a micro adjuster. I’ll also have a nice scale to check loads from time to time. I’m not sure if I’ll get the Chargemaster Combo This is perhaps overkill, but it should allow for easy accurate dispensing if I go to precision loads on a single stage press.

Fourth station, initial bullet seating: I believe I can accomplish this using the bullet feed mechanism with the provided dye backed out almost all the way.

Fifth station, final bullet seating: Using the Redding Competition Seater Die 223, 308 and once again I believe the .277 set will work here.

Stage ?, case trimming: I’m still looking at the Trim Pro Case Kit I believe there is one that has a universal bullet collet and the trim is adjustable with an auto debur inside and out. I may also think about the RCBS Universal Case Prep Center I’m not sure which route I’ll go.

That should do the entire process.

Various accessories:
Books… LOTS OF BOOKS!!!

Of course there will be piggy backs to change calibers

Will I need shell plate piggy backs too? 223 example

Quick Change Powder Measure (I’m undecided on this if I can fairly easily dial in a powder measure using the micro adjustments)

Precision Mic

Calipers

Bullet puller

Dye wrenches

Brushes

Powder funnels

Ammo boxes

Various sundries to keep things clean and organized (dust covers, shelving, dye maintenance, etc)

Lastly, how does one go about getting a stuck case off of a die should it happen?

Your thoughts?

[JimDandy]

I've got a Hornady LNL Ammo Plant. There's a version of the same general thing from RCBS, and from Dillon. All three of the big three have a full on setup. Dillon is exceedingly specific.. you don't buy dies, you buy conversion kits. So I'd go with RCBS or Hornady. Whichever floats your boat, Red or Green. Just remember, if it aint Red, it stays in the Shed.

One tumbler option I haven't seen suggested is wet tumbling with a Thumler's Tumbler Model B with some lemi-shine, and steel pin media.

[Unclenick]

If you buy a separate press for depriming and precision loading, for a fixed press the Lee Classic Cast is less expensive than the Rock Chucker and does what it will do. The Lee finish is a bit less perfect. RCBS guarantees for life while Lee is just for two years. RCBS customer service is stellar, while Lee's is just very good. On the other hand, I understand the RCBS castings are now made in China where Lee is made here, if that affects your decision. I don't know what portion of the RCBS line is made in China vs. what portion is made here. I know their balance beam scales are made here by Ohaus. I also have a Forster Co-ax press, that I do all my precision rifle loading on, and it is a better design than either of the other two, IMHO, but it costs more rather than less than the RC.

I have a Dillon swager and it works fine. Other than the horizontal handle stroke vs. the Dillon's vertical, and the lower RCBS price, I don't see much difference between them. The Dillon has the advantage that there are videos at YouTube showing how to automate a portion of its function (the raising and lowering of the case anvil and, in one instance, actual ejection of the finished case to a pile).

On cleaning, you can buy a massive cleaner like the large Dillon vibratory cleaner if you want a lot of capacity. You do have to watch what happens with the dust when you separate cases from it. There is a lot more lead in that dust than around a casting bench, and it's in water-soluble salts (the unhealthy form). The mechanical reasons for cleaning are to protect your sizing dies from grit scratches, to shine the cases so they are easier to find in the grass after a self-loader flings them away, and to get out carbon so it doesn't promote barrel erosion. Only the stainless pin and ultra-sonic methods thus far seem to succeed in all three areas completely. So for your precision work you may want to use one of those methods. If you don't mind losing some cases in the grass, you can just shake them in a milk jug with soapy water, rinse and dry to remove dirt. You can add a little citric acid to get a degree of yellowing and removal of heat oxidation. You can also add just enough to bring the detergent pH to 7, so it doesn't affect the brass at all. The vibratory tumbler will do the same, cleaning off grit, but will als0 polish the outside and, to a lesser degree, the inside. You can also put cases into a rotary tumbler with the same solution, but without pins, which gives you more capacity for cases, but the insides and primer pockets won't get very clean as they do with the pins in place.

If the case lube die adversely affected primer pockets it wouldn't be usable and they wouldn't make it. You will still want to lube case necks on the inside for bullet seating, and that has to be done before you start the load cycle.

I'm not sure what you mean by using .277 die sets for 6.8. They only make the X-die in two .277's and those are .270 WSM and .270 Winchester. Neither will work with the 6.8 SPC. Case sizing requires an exact match to case profile all over. Unlike straight wall pistol cases, where a .38 Special and .357 can share dies, once you have sides that taper and shoulder you are in for unique sizing dies for each cartridge.
Likewise the Redding Competition Seating dies are cartridge-specific and must be made not only for the correct bullet diameter but with the whole case profile matching the die so the sliding sleeve matches the case body. So you 6.8 Rem will require a different loading routine.

Fortunately, Forster's Benchrest Seater die is available in 6.8 SPC. It also has a micrometer head option. The only difference between this die and the Redding is the Redding has a floating seater stem rather than a fixed one. However, the Forster die's reputation is good. I don't own any only because I started with the Redding as my first sliding sleeve seater, and it worked so well I developed brand loyalty. But I don't honestly know how much difference that one feature really makes.

If you are using the X-dies you only have to use a trimmer once on each case, but for a large volume even that can take awhile since you have to trim more than usual. I have not been too impressed with how the various case chucks work on most lathe trimmers in general, so I use a Wilson trimmer for small runs instead. I use a Giraud for high volume. A Gracey costs less and also works well. Like the special RCBS cutter, these tools have cutters that deburr and chamfer and trim simultaneously, but we're talking only two or three seconds per case. You can find YouTube demos of the various trimmers to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

You may want to be careful using the term 'pigg-back' in a post discussion RCBS equipment. RCBS has a progressive adapter for the Rock Chucker Supreme called a Piggy Back, so some confusion is possible.

A number of cartridges share common head designs that can share shell plates, but your rifle rounds all have different head dimensions and will need different shell plates.

[bbqncigars]

I'll weigh in here. For most calibers, I use my Hornady AP, as the Dillon 550B couldn't cut it with some of my rounds. I use a Lee universal de-capper in my AP before running them through my wet SS tumbler. They then get spray lubed and loaded. The gas guns are set up with X dies, others get the normal dies. After a brief post-loading visit to a vibratory cleaner with walnut and a dash of mineral spirits, they are good to go. My precision rounds are loaded on my Co-Ax. My Wilson trimmer is used on all rounds, and their primer pocket reamer is deployed to remove military crimps. My scale is a Lyman M that was tuned by Scott Parker. I use the Hornady PM on the AP, but use my B&M for the precision loads. For a wet tumbler, I advise you to Google biggdawg tumblers.