Pre-64 300 H & H Magnum

justabagoftricks · October 31, 2012, 06:22 PM

Hi. My father has decided to give away his guns to his children since he is getting older. Since I am the only one of his kids that hunt, he gave me first choice of his hunting rifles. The one that I wanted and chose was a 1950 Pre-64 Winchester 300 H & H Magnum. Now that I have the rifle, I would like to put a scope on it. I currently hunt with a 30-30 that has a scope but sometimes that shots are a little too far for that caliber. Anyway, there are two threaded holes in front of the bolt on top but on the back of the bolt there is two holes on the side. Is there any way to mount a scope on this gun (preferably a modern scope) by using the existing holes? I really don't want to change the gun by having a hole drilled and tapped on top. I hope the pictures can give an idea what I am talking about. Thanks.

30-30remchester · October 31, 2012, 08:14 PM

Your rifle should have holes drilled on the rear bridge as well. Modle 70's were drilled for modern scope bases by 1946, so you wont have to drill anything. Scope bases are currently produced by Leupold and Weaver. The holes on the side are for a reciever sight. You choose wisely. Your rifle is the king of commerial bolt guns. The Riflemans Rifle is it nickname. Any alteration will severly reduce value. How about some complete photos?

Slamfire · October 31, 2012, 08:26 PM

These older M70's were either used with long tube scopes that used dove tails on the barrel and the receiver ring, or used a wierd scope base. I looked for pictures of Noske, or any pre war mounts, could not find one.

The holes on the left rear of the receiver were for the Lyman 48WJS iron sight.

You either have to find a vintage mount and scope (cost between ouch! & Bong!) or drill and tap the receiver bridge for a modern mount.

Drilling and tapping will just about halve the collector's value of a pristine pre 64, so think carefully about this.

justabagoftricks · October 31, 2012, 08:44 PM

Here are some more pictures of the rifle. I really don't want to drill and tap it although to shoot at long distances with open sights isn't much of an option either. If I decide to spend the money on a mount that will fit this gun without drilling a tapping it, how difficult is it to find the mount?

justabagoftricks · October 31, 2012, 08:50 PM

Here are a few more pictures.

Jim Watson · October 31, 2012, 09:06 PM

There was a period scope mount that attached to the receiver sight screw holes and either the front receiver ring holes or to a base in the rear sight dovetail. A Stith Instal It Yourself mount, I believe. It would be a good trick to find one and then you would have to have a suitable scope, one without an enlarged objective bell, which would limit you to maybe 3X.

Jimro · October 31, 2012, 10:02 PM

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/626...il-matte-steel

This is the type of scope Jim Watson was referring to, and it will fit fine. Keep the rear sight that is removed to make way for the front scope base.

Jimro

Slamfire · November 1, 2012, 09:59 AM

Does not look like your rifle has been cut down or a rubber recoil pad added. It is easily a $1,000 dollar rifle. The 300 H&H is an uncommon chambering. Muck with it and the value will drop.

**Mike Irwin** · November 1, 2012, 10:06 AM

"There was a period scope mount that attached to the receiver sight screw holes and either the front receiver ring holes or to a base in the rear sight dovetail. A Stith Instal It Yourself mount, I believe."

Bingo! I couldn't remember Stith. I was sitting here going S.... S.... S... damn it, I know the name!

Yes, Stith made mounts that used the side holes.

They worked, but they weren't the most stable.

On the plus side, you won't pay a lot for one of these mounts. I've seen them go for $40 and $50, and they seem to be relatively common.

The the minus side, they have not been made for years, and you'll have to have patience in finding one.

Check E-Bay, Gunbroker, and Auction Arms.

Jim Watson · November 1, 2012, 10:10 AM

Actually, not, Jimro. That is a knockoff of a Unertl target scope. At one time you could get bases for it that would fit the receiver ring and rear sight dovetail. So it could be made to work if you could find those bases.

What I referred to was like the one advertised here:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Bear-Cub-Mast...item27cc5611aa

It uses the receiver ring holes and the left side peep sight holes.
There is also a version that has a long sleeve that goes over the objective end and sets in the open sight dovetail.

30-30remchester · November 1, 2012, 05:13 PM

Does everyone see what I see? A type 3 action WITHOUT the rear bridge drilled. All type 2 actions had the rear bridge drilled. In 45 years of collecting and studying model 70's, I have never seen or heard of a type 3 action not drilled. Could we please get a close up photo of the rear bridge?

justabagoftricks · November 1, 2012, 08:37 PM

Here are some more pictures of the rifle. What is the difference between a type 2 and type 3 action?

justabagoftricks · November 1, 2012, 08:39 PM

One more picture.

justabagoftricks · November 1, 2012, 08:51 PM

The bases that are for sale on ebay; would it fit the long action found on a 300 H & H magnum or would it only fit a short action such as a .270. Would I need to measure the distance between the receiver ring holes and the left side peep holes?

Scorch · November 1, 2012, 08:52 PM

I see them all the time with the front ring drilled/tapped and the rear bridge not drilled/tapped on top. That was actually normal for a few years after WW2. But it's probably not something most people look for.

George4376 · November 1, 2012, 09:05 PM

Your rifle is a 100% original Model 70 in a not too common caliber,with a undrilled rear receiver.I would leave it alone in the original condition,many have had recoil pads added,receivers drilled and tapped which reduces the value.

Buzzdoc · November 1, 2012, 09:26 PM

This is a rifle passed from your father to you.

Can you conceive of a time that you might want to sell the rifle, or do you see it being passed on through the family?

If you may sell it some day, leave it alone. If you plan to keep it in the family, tap it, install modern rings and a scope, and make the rifle useful for you. Would you rather think of you father every time you pull the trigger on a rifle you can use, or every time you open the door and look at your safe queen? Yes you may devalue the rifle, but we aren't talking about a Purdey here.

The flaming begins in 3..2..1..

30-30remchester · November 1, 2012, 10:14 PM

As stated I have seen probably a thousand early model 70,s over the years and never a type 3 without rear bridge drilled. Quite unusal. A normal model 70 base will not fit a magnum action rifle. Tne only solution that wont severly reduce values is to aquire a STITH mount from ebay or like auction sites and instead of using the old stlyle front " ring" instead use the front base and ring of a modern mount and use the STITH rear mount that uses the existing reciever sight holes. This will allow a standard 2 occular scope and a sturdier set up. Even though STITH bases are expensive, drilling an undrilled base is far more expensive in reduced collector value.

Jimro · November 2, 2012, 02:39 PM

Jim Watson,

That scope is a reproduction of the Unertl the USMC used on their 30-06 M70 rifles in the 50's and 60's. I linked to it as an example of something that would be "period correct" and have the forward scope mount in the rear sight dovetail.

Jimro

RevGeo · November 3, 2012, 10:33 AM

+1 for what Buzzdoc said. I inherited several of my father's rifles and some I kept original and some I altered for my use. Value - schmalue; it was Dad's gun and now it's mine.
What a cool gun! A pre-64 Mod 70 in 300H&H is about as righteous as it gets. What a wonderful big game rifle. Enjoy your gun, it's a great one.

30Cal · November 5, 2012, 06:54 PM

Should be easy to hit stuff at 400+yds with irons. I'd enjoy it as-is.

warbirdlover · November 6, 2012, 03:26 PM

I would have the back receiver top drilled and tapped by a gunsmith so you could use standard bases.

Or a gunsmith could probably make you a rear base that would allow you to use standard rings.

GeauxTide · November 6, 2012, 09:14 PM

You do have a rare M70; however, if the stated purpose is to hunt, TAP it! The value is not the gun, it's from your father. I surmise that it will stay in your family. The 300 needs a scope and good reloads for a truly marvelous hunting rifle.

October 31, 2012, 08:26 PM	#3
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	These older M70's were either used with long tube scopes that used dove tails on the barrel and the receiver ring, or used a wierd scope base. I looked for pictures of Noske, or any pre war mounts, could not find one. The holes on the left rear of the receiver were for the Lyman 48WJS iron sight. You either have to find a vintage mount and scope (cost between ouch! & Bong!) or drill and tap the receiver bridge for a modern mount. Drilling and tapping will just about halve the collector's value of a pristine pre 64, so think carefully about this. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

October 31, 2012, 10:02 PM	#7
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	http://www.midwayusa.com/product/626...il-matte-steel This is the type of scope Jim Watson was referring to, and it will fit fine. Keep the rear sight that is removed to make way for the front scope base. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 1, 2012, 09:59 AM	#8
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Does not look like your rifle has been cut down or a rubber recoil pad added. It is easily a $1,000 dollar rifle. The 300 H&H is an uncommon chambering. Muck with it and the value will drop. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

November 1, 2012, 10:06 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	"There was a period scope mount that attached to the receiver sight screw holes and either the front receiver ring holes or to a base in the rear sight dovetail. A Stith Instal It Yourself mount, I believe." Bingo! I couldn't remember Stith. I was sitting here going S.... S.... S... damn it, I know the name! Yes, Stith made mounts that used the side holes. They worked, but they weren't the most stable. On the plus side, you won't pay a lot for one of these mounts. I've seen them go for $40 and $50, and they seem to be relatively common. The the minus side, they have not been made for years, and you'll have to have patience in finding one. Check E-Bay, Gunbroker, and Auction Arms. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 1, 2012, 08:52 PM	#15
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	I see them all the time with the front ring drilled/tapped and the rear bridge not drilled/tapped on top. That was actually normal for a few years after WW2. But it's probably not something most people look for. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services Last edited by Scorch; November 1, 2012 at 08:59 PM.

October 31, 2012, 08:14 PM	#2
30-30remchester Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: mountains of colorado Posts: 977	Your rifle should have holes drilled on the rear bridge as well. Modle 70's were drilled for modern scope bases by 1946, so you wont have to drill anything. Scope bases are currently produced by Leupold and Weaver. The holes on the side are for a reciever sight. You choose wisely. Your rifle is the king of commerial bolt guns. The Riflemans Rifle is it nickname. Any alteration will severly reduce value. How about some complete photos?

October 31, 2012, 09:06 PM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	There was a period scope mount that attached to the receiver sight screw holes and either the front receiver ring holes or to a base in the rear sight dovetail. A Stith Instal It Yourself mount, I believe. It would be a good trick to find one and then you would have to have a suitable scope, one without an enlarged objective bell, which would limit you to maybe 3X.

November 1, 2012, 10:10 AM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	Actually, not, Jimro. That is a knockoff of a Unertl target scope. At one time you could get bases for it that would fit the receiver ring and rear sight dovetail. So it could be made to work if you could find those bases. What I referred to was like the one advertised here: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Bear-Cub-Mast...item27cc5611aa It uses the receiver ring holes and the left side peep sight holes. There is also a version that has a long sleeve that goes over the objective end and sets in the open sight dovetail.

November 1, 2012, 05:13 PM	#11
30-30remchester Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: mountains of colorado Posts: 977	Does everyone see what I see? A type 3 action WITHOUT the rear bridge drilled. All type 2 actions had the rear bridge drilled. In 45 years of collecting and studying model 70's, I have never seen or heard of a type 3 action not drilled. Could we please get a close up photo of the rear bridge?

November 1, 2012, 08:51 PM	#14
justabagoftricks Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2012 Posts: 6	The bases that are for sale on ebay; would it fit the long action found on a 300 H & H magnum or would it only fit a short action such as a .270. Would I need to measure the distance between the receiver ring holes and the left side peep holes?

November 1, 2012, 09:05 PM	#16
George4376 Junior Member Join Date: February 19, 2012 Posts: 14	Your rifle is a 100% original Model 70 in a not too common caliber,with a undrilled rear receiver.I would leave it alone in the original condition,many have had recoil pads added,receivers drilled and tapped which reduces the value.

November 1, 2012, 09:26 PM	#17
Buzzdoc Member Join Date: August 22, 2011 Location: NW Georgia Posts: 17	This is a rifle passed from your father to you. Can you conceive of a time that you might want to sell the rifle, or do you see it being passed on through the family? If you may sell it some day, leave it alone. If you plan to keep it in the family, tap it, install modern rings and a scope, and make the rifle useful for you. Would you rather think of you father every time you pull the trigger on a rifle you can use, or every time you open the door and look at your safe queen? Yes you may devalue the rifle, but we aren't talking about a Purdey here. The flaming begins in 3..2..1..

November 1, 2012, 10:14 PM	#18
30-30remchester Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: mountains of colorado Posts: 977	As stated I have seen probably a thousand early model 70,s over the years and never a type 3 without rear bridge drilled. Quite unusal. A normal model 70 base will not fit a magnum action rifle. Tne only solution that wont severly reduce values is to aquire a STITH mount from ebay or like auction sites and instead of using the old stlyle front " ring" instead use the front base and ring of a modern mount and use the STITH rear mount that uses the existing reciever sight holes. This will allow a standard 2 occular scope and a sturdier set up. Even though STITH bases are expensive, drilling an undrilled base is far more expensive in reduced collector value.

November 2, 2012, 02:39 PM	#19
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Jim Watson, That scope is a reproduction of the Unertl the USMC used on their 30-06 M70 rifles in the 50's and 60's. I linked to it as an example of something that would be "period correct" and have the forward scope mount in the rear sight dovetail. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 3, 2012, 10:33 AM	#20
RevGeo Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2011 Location: North Idaho Posts: 161	+1 for what Buzzdoc said. I inherited several of my father's rifles and some I kept original and some I altered for my use. Value - schmalue; it was Dad's gun and now it's mine. What a cool gun! A pre-64 Mod 70 in 300H&H is about as righteous as it gets. What a wonderful big game rifle. Enjoy your gun, it's a great one.

November 5, 2012, 06:54 PM	#21
30Cal Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Posts: 1,264	Should be easy to hit stuff at 400+yds with irons. I'd enjoy it as-is.

November 6, 2012, 03:26 PM	#22
warbirdlover Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2009 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 2,324	I would have the back receiver top drilled and tapped by a gunsmith so you could use standard bases. Or a gunsmith could probably make you a rear base that would allow you to use standard rings.

November 6, 2012, 09:14 PM	#23
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	I'm Confused You do have a rare M70; however, if the stated purpose is to hunt, TAP it! The value is not the gun, it's from your father. I surmise that it will stay in your family. The 300 needs a scope and good reloads for a truly marvelous hunting rifle.