Old "shortened" gun... factory looking crown ???

Magnum Wheel Man · June 10, 2010, 02:16 PM

I reciently bought this old tip up S&W... that appears to have been shortened long ago... I've bought a couple of this type of gun over the last year though they have been top breaks... which display the traditional "whacked with a hack saw" straight cut... this gun appears to have a factory "looking" crown... I'm sure it has been shortened, as only ...

Quote:

...sson & the address & patents

remain on the top of the barrel... & there is no front sight...

it has peaked my interest enough to buy it...

your thoughts on this crown, anyone familiar with anyone but S&W doing this type of crown a 100 years or so ago ??? maybe it's just wear ???

James K · June 10, 2010, 06:12 PM

I doubt very much S&W did that crown or cut the barrel. Just the usual answer by a gunsmith or someone with a hacksaw and file to the old demand for a more concealable weapon.

Jim

Magnum Wheel Man · June 11, 2010, 07:35 AM

it appears to be rounded ( crowned ) fully from the rifling to the outer edge a bit tougher to do with a hacksaw & file... I'm sure there were plenty of "gunsmiths" that were capable of putting a crown on a shortened barrel back then... but they would have likely been considered some of the better gunsmiths of the time... I doubt that not just any old "hack" could have put on a crown like that...

here is a pic of the muzzle of a similar gun ( another S&W, but a top break in 32 S&W ) that was shortened & re-nickeled long enough ago, that the barrels finish condition matches that of the rest of the gun... this is a straight cut with no crown... & while I think this was a quality job for the period in which it was done, the cut edge is straight with no crown

Winchester_73 · June 11, 2010, 07:51 AM

While the crown does look nice in the top photo, the best handgun maker of all time, S&W, wouldn't have took a long barrel, cut it and sent it out with half the address on top missing. They were just too good of a company to do that. Factory short barrels will still display patent, company name, caliber, etc. When part of the barrel markings are missing, its a tell tale sign that a gunsmith did the job. Even if you sent the gun to S&W asking for a shorter barrel, they would replace it in this case with a shorter factory made barrel which would have all markings present. The only barrels in my experience that S&W would cut are ones that when cut, would not lose/alter any stampings.

Quote:

remain on the top of the barrel... & there is no front sight...

The factory, whether making a short barrelled gun originally, or if they shortened a barrel for a customer per request, would always replace the front sight unless of course a sight less gun was requested. This is unlikely because half moon sights are quite difficult to snag when drawing.

Magnum Wheel Man · June 11, 2010, 08:05 AM

I agree completely... it just has me curious as to the quality of the shortening job compared to my 2nd pic, which I think was done well... & why on a quality barrel shortening is that front sight missing, unless the customer requested it with no front site... I'd suspect i was made into a vest pocket gun...

I know that in general terms, the collector value was destroyed on guns like these ( I bought both for very reasonable prices ), but I find them interesting, as they were very early customized guns... sometimes it would be nice to know the story behind them... I actually find guns like these more interesting, than ones that look like new, & were either NOS, or spent their life in someones sock drawer

I always wondered why on some of the better jobs, that they didn't remove the partial stampings ??? I have a U.S. Revolver top break in 38 S&W, that I had my local guy ( a retired tool & die guy that's done "old world" gunsmithing all his life ) shorten to a snubbie, & at my suggestion to remove the partial stamping, he used a checkering file to obliterate the partial stamp, giving me a non reflective top site rib... appearently this was pretty easy to do

PetahW · June 11, 2010, 10:38 AM

[I'm sure there were plenty of "gunsmiths" that were capable of putting a crown on a shortened barrel back then... but they would have likely been considered some of the better gunsmiths of the time... I doubt that not just any old "hack" could have put on a crown like that...]

"Hack" would be the operative word.

Actually, I've been crowning the muzzles, and rounding over or at least breaking the outer edge of the barrel cut, after I hacksawed/shortened barrels of various guns since the late 1960's - and I'm not any kind of professional gunsmith (although I've always used a machinist's square to mark the cut).

I did it not only for potentially better barrel accuracy, and esthetics, but also as a matter of personal pride in my work.

JMO, but the hackers that don't are either ignorant of proper procedure or don't care about how their work is viewed - being more interested in results than a well-finished result.

.

James K · June 11, 2010, 04:12 PM

I can do that kind of "crown" with nothing but my fingers, a couple of pieces of emery cloth, and some patience. Any halfway competent gunsmith should do as good or better.

Jim

June 11, 2010, 07:35 AM	#3
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	it appears to be rounded ( crowned ) fully from the rifling to the outer edge a bit tougher to do with a hacksaw & file... I'm sure there were plenty of "gunsmiths" that were capable of putting a crown on a shortened barrel back then... but they would have likely been considered some of the better gunsmiths of the time... I doubt that not just any old "hack" could have put on a crown like that... here is a pic of the muzzle of a similar gun ( another S&W, but a top break in 32 S&W ) that was shortened & re-nickeled long enough ago, that the barrels finish condition matches that of the rest of the gun... this is a straight cut with no crown... & while I think this was a quality job for the period in which it was done, the cut edge is straight with no crown __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; June 11, 2010 at 08:11 AM.

June 11, 2010, 08:05 AM	#5
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I agree completely... it just has me curious as to the quality of the shortening job compared to my 2nd pic, which I think was done well... & why on a quality barrel shortening is that front sight missing, unless the customer requested it with no front site... I'd suspect i was made into a vest pocket gun... I know that in general terms, the collector value was destroyed on guns like these ( I bought both for very reasonable prices ), but I find them interesting, as they were very early customized guns... sometimes it would be nice to know the story behind them... I actually find guns like these more interesting, than ones that look like new, & were either NOS, or spent their life in someones sock drawer I always wondered why on some of the better jobs, that they didn't remove the partial stampings ??? I have a U.S. Revolver top break in 38 S&W, that I had my local guy ( a retired tool & die guy that's done "old world" gunsmithing all his life ) shorten to a snubbie, & at my suggestion to remove the partial stamping, he used a checkering file to obliterate the partial stamp, giving me a non reflective top site rib... appearently this was pretty easy to do __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

June 10, 2010, 06:12 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I doubt very much S&W did that crown or cut the barrel. Just the usual answer by a gunsmith or someone with a hacksaw and file to the old demand for a more concealable weapon. Jim

June 11, 2010, 10:38 AM	#6
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	[I'm sure there were plenty of "gunsmiths" that were capable of putting a crown on a shortened barrel back then... but they would have likely been considered some of the better gunsmiths of the time... I doubt that not just any old "hack" could have put on a crown like that...] "Hack" would be the operative word. Actually, I've been crowning the muzzles, and rounding over or at least breaking the outer edge of the barrel cut, after I hacksawed/shortened barrels of various guns since the late 1960's - and I'm not any kind of professional gunsmith (although I've always used a machinist's square to mark the cut). I did it not only for potentially better barrel accuracy, and esthetics, but also as a matter of personal pride in my work. JMO, but the hackers that don't are either ignorant of proper procedure or don't care about how their work is viewed - being more interested in results than a well-finished result. .

June 11, 2010, 04:12 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I can do that kind of "crown" with nothing but my fingers, a couple of pieces of emery cloth, and some patience. Any halfway competent gunsmith should do as good or better. Jim