Training my friend with a pump shotgun was a failure - Page 3

kozak6 · July 7, 2020, 06:36 AM

I can understand not enjoying 12 gauge recoil. And I suppose shoulder issues (or whatever) could also result in not being able to fire or shoulder a 12.

But not being able to cycle a pump shotgun? And it's not misunderstanding the slide release? I suspect he wouldn't be able to cycle most any semiautomatic pistol or rifle then, and probably not even most manually operated longarms.

Without understanding his physical issues better, it's difficult to make a suggestion.

Apple a Day · July 7, 2020, 10:13 AM

If you can get him to try a .22 MAGNUM rifle or a .410 bore it might be worth it
There are a couple of new generation .22 magnums, very light, low recoil.
Either Mossberg or Remington makes a .410 'firearm' +arm brace might be worth a look
I wish you and your buddy luck. Goodonya for helping him.

stuckinthe60s · July 7, 2020, 11:25 AM

snake charmer 410.

dyl · July 7, 2020, 01:45 PM

Wallabing,

Not all gun store employees give great advice but some do, as you have found out.

Whatever this gentleman's difficulty is, I see this broken down into several issues.

Upper body strength
Pain / discomfort
Novice

This doesn't sound rude to me, but you could tell him you were trying to think of a gun that better fits him and ask if he's ever had any major upper body injuries, or arthritis, or if there are any particular movements that are hard for him to do.

Shotguns get recommended a lot either because some think that having to "rack it" makes a loud sound that will deter others, or because of the multiple pellets causing a pretty nasty wound. But they are relatively heavy, unwieldy, lower capacity, and may seem less intuitive (point and click) to operate, especially for someone new.

If hand strength is an issue, I'd recommend a Smith and Wesson M&P 9 Shield EZ. It's easier to rack the slide, and supposedly easier to load the magazine compared to many other semi-autos.

If the grip is too small for him, then any full sized 9mm with a 4+ inch barrel will have little recoil, with ammo being cheap enough to practice regularly.

Revolvers are lower capacity, but you don't have to fight any springs to load a magazine. The difficulty here is that one needs to be able to pull a heavier double action trigger with the index finger. I would suggest 38 special in a steel revolver, with at least a 4 inch barrel. The longer the barrel and heavier the revolver the less it kicks. Longer than 6 inch though would be strange (likely a novelty or hunting revolver) and make it rather front heavy. Perhaps the gun store gurus would let him try a double action trigger to see if he can pull it without pain or difficulty. Ruger makes a polymer frame revolver (it may kick a little more) that has a new trigger design for lighter double action pulls. I would avoid snub nose revolvers if he has arthritis or he's novice as the potential sting and difficulty being accurate would discourage him from practicing.

Pain can be trained away, but if someone's a novice, they won't have the motivation to even try. And if someone has had injury or arthritis, shooting should ideally not come at a cost other than the ammo budget.

jimku · July 7, 2020, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallabing

He told me he bought the 870 because it was what the gunstore recommended to him for home defense.

OK, now we know it is for home defense. All he needs is a good 380. My recommendation is a Bersa Thunder Plus ... 16 rounds with one in the pipe ... ultra safe, low recoil, light, slide easy to run, easy to handle, good sights, very reliable, easy to disassemble and clean and plenty effective for home defense. In his condition he will probably never be an accurate shooter, so high capacity is important. And with a UpLULA loader the magazines are easy to load.

Skans · July 10, 2020, 10:44 AM

A man in his 50's who can't pump or shoot a shotgun? Something's not right with him, and I don't mean that in a mean way at all. I simply can't imagine this for an average, healthy 55 year old man.

So, if he is having problems with a pump shotgun, then I think shooting a pistol may be even trickier. Possibly something like a bolt-action .223 rifle would suit him better.

Shadow9mm · July 12, 2020, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skans

A man in his 50's who can't pump or shoot a shotgun? Something's not right with him, and I don't mean that in a mean way at all. I simply can't imagine this for an average, healthy 55 year old man.

So, if he is having problems with a pump shotgun, then I think shooting a pistol may be even trickier. Possibly something like a bolt-action .223 rifle would suit him better.

We just have an "old timers" trap shoot at my range every thursday, bunch of old retired guys from probably their 50s to 70s out shooting. had a one guy go 50 for 50 the other day. They were all double and single barrel guns, opening and closing those things takes more strength than running a pump gun.

7.62 man · July 12, 2020, 10:02 AM

Never start a new shooter on a gun that recoils!
It will give them a bad outlook on guns & they won't want anything to do with them after that.
Start them on a .22lr or something light & quiet then let them work their way up as they feel safe.

HiBC · July 12, 2020, 11:16 AM

Wallabing:

I wasn't there. It sounds like you may have been stuck downstream of a gunstore clerk who thinks Joe Biden is a tactical firearms expert.

Your friend made an unfortunate purchase.

Perhaps you accompaied him to a place he could shoot his new gun.

I'm saying don't beat yourself up.

If your friend needs to use a SD gun,I doubt his attacker will position himself so your friend can use a supporting bench. Those darn attackers can be unpredictable!

Is it reasonable to expect your friend will join a fitness club and restore upper body strength? I think that is believable only after it happens.

Your friend has limitations. Thats just the reality. Maybe they are somewhat mental.
They are still limitations.

A one timee or occasional range trip will not be sufficient to take a non-shooter to someone prepared for armed self defense.

There isn't a gun you can buy that will make your friend confident and competent with a firearm.

He has to learn shooting.,at least to suit his needs and limitations.

He needs to try friendly,low recoil guns,a variety of them.

A single shot youth 22 bolt rifle is not a SD gun.(Except for the book "Unintended Consequences")

But it can allow your friend to have a little fun and become more comfortable with shooting.
A Ruger 10-22 may not be the ultimate self defense gun,but I'm sure I would stop being aggressive with 10 22 lr hollow points in my upper body.

The old 9 shot Iver or H+R top break revolver might be manageable to try,or a S+W K=22.It does not have to be a potential SD gun.Its just something that might be available to try that will help find a direction. A 22 revolver might lead to a S+W Model 10 or a Charter arms or ? A Ruger 327 LCR,
Rent or try a Shield EZ.

Make shooting fun and friendly.Let him try easy,non-intense guns. Let him find a match that suits him.

July 7, 2020, 10:13 AM	#52
Apple a Day Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2000 Location: Poquoson,Virginia Posts: 1,524	If you can get him to try a .22 MAGNUM rifle or a .410 bore it might be worth it There are a couple of new generation .22 magnums, very light, low recoil. Either Mossberg or Remington makes a .410 'firearm' +arm brace might be worth a look I wish you and your buddy luck. Goodonya for helping him. __________________ THose who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules. Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

July 7, 2020, 11:25 AM	#53
stuckinthe60s Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2017 Location: Va., Ct., Mo.. Posts: 878	snake charmer 410. __________________ Retired Military Aviation Former Member Navy Shooting Team Distinguished Pistol Shot,NRA Shotgun/Pistol Instructor NSSA All American, Skeet/Trap Range Owner

July 12, 2020, 11:16 AM	#59
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	Wallabing: I wasn't there. It sounds like you may have been stuck downstream of a gunstore clerk who thinks Joe Biden is a tactical firearms expert. Your friend made an unfortunate purchase. Perhaps you accompaied him to a place he could shoot his new gun. I'm saying don't beat yourself up. If your friend needs to use a SD gun,I doubt his attacker will position himself so your friend can use a supporting bench. Those darn attackers can be unpredictable! Is it reasonable to expect your friend will join a fitness club and restore upper body strength? I think that is believable only after it happens. Your friend has limitations. Thats just the reality. Maybe they are somewhat mental. They are still limitations. A one timee or occasional range trip will not be sufficient to take a non-shooter to someone prepared for armed self defense. There isn't a gun you can buy that will make your friend confident and competent with a firearm. He has to learn shooting.,at least to suit his needs and limitations. He needs to try friendly,low recoil guns,a variety of them. A single shot youth 22 bolt rifle is not a SD gun.(Except for the book "Unintended Consequences") But it can allow your friend to have a little fun and become more comfortable with shooting. A Ruger 10-22 may not be the ultimate self defense gun,but I'm sure I would stop being aggressive with 10 22 lr hollow points in my upper body. The old 9 shot Iver or H+R top break revolver might be manageable to try,or a S+W K=22.It does not have to be a potential SD gun.Its just something that might be available to try that will help find a direction. A 22 revolver might lead to a S+W Model 10 or a Charter arms or ? A Ruger 327 LCR, Rent or try a Shield EZ. Make shooting fun and friendly.Let him try easy,non-intense guns. Let him find a match that suits him. Last edited by HiBC; July 12, 2020 at 11:25 AM.

July 7, 2020, 06:36 AM	#51
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	I can understand not enjoying 12 gauge recoil. And I suppose shoulder issues (or whatever) could also result in not being able to fire or shoulder a 12. But not being able to cycle a pump shotgun? And it's not misunderstanding the slide release? I suspect he wouldn't be able to cycle most any semiautomatic pistol or rifle then, and probably not even most manually operated longarms. Without understanding his physical issues better, it's difficult to make a suggestion.

July 7, 2020, 01:45 PM	#54
dyl Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,310	Wallabing, Not all gun store employees give great advice but some do, as you have found out. Whatever this gentleman's difficulty is, I see this broken down into several issues. Upper body strength Pain / discomfort Novice This doesn't sound rude to me, but you could tell him you were trying to think of a gun that better fits him and ask if he's ever had any major upper body injuries, or arthritis, or if there are any particular movements that are hard for him to do. Shotguns get recommended a lot either because some think that having to "rack it" makes a loud sound that will deter others, or because of the multiple pellets causing a pretty nasty wound. But they are relatively heavy, unwieldy, lower capacity, and may seem less intuitive (point and click) to operate, especially for someone new. If hand strength is an issue, I'd recommend a Smith and Wesson M&P 9 Shield EZ. It's easier to rack the slide, and supposedly easier to load the magazine compared to many other semi-autos. If the grip is too small for him, then any full sized 9mm with a 4+ inch barrel will have little recoil, with ammo being cheap enough to practice regularly. Revolvers are lower capacity, but you don't have to fight any springs to load a magazine. The difficulty here is that one needs to be able to pull a heavier double action trigger with the index finger. I would suggest 38 special in a steel revolver, with at least a 4 inch barrel. The longer the barrel and heavier the revolver the less it kicks. Longer than 6 inch though would be strange (likely a novelty or hunting revolver) and make it rather front heavy. Perhaps the gun store gurus would let him try a double action trigger to see if he can pull it without pain or difficulty. Ruger makes a polymer frame revolver (it may kick a little more) that has a new trigger design for lighter double action pulls. I would avoid snub nose revolvers if he has arthritis or he's novice as the potential sting and difficulty being accurate would discourage him from practicing. Pain can be trained away, but if someone's a novice, they won't have the motivation to even try. And if someone has had injury or arthritis, shooting should ideally not come at a cost other than the ammo budget.

July 10, 2020, 10:44 AM	#56
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	A man in his 50's who can't pump or shoot a shotgun? Something's not right with him, and I don't mean that in a mean way at all. I simply can't imagine this for an average, healthy 55 year old man. So, if he is having problems with a pump shotgun, then I think shooting a pistol may be even trickier. Possibly something like a bolt-action .223 rifle would suit him better.

July 12, 2020, 10:02 AM	#58
7.62 man Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2009 Location: Cyber-world USA Posts: 258	Never start a new shooter on a gun that recoils! It will give them a bad outlook on guns & they won't want anything to do with them after that. Start them on a .22lr or something light & quiet then let them work their way up as they feel safe.