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Old August 30, 2012, 12:33 AM   #26
FloridaVeteran
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Claimbuster gets my vote for the most succinct, accurate answer.
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Old August 30, 2012, 12:52 AM   #27
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I always ask if I can dry fire.

Only way to find out about the feel of the trigger.

Not all gun shops will let you dry fire though.
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Old August 30, 2012, 01:25 AM   #28
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481 posted:
This brings to mind a question. Is this (ie: using these aiming points as a backstop) really considered to be a safe/acceptable practice?
In my opinion, yes. In our store most of the customers try to aim out the window or past us at the wall behind the counter. If an accidental discharge occurred, a shot out the window would be potentially dangerous, and a shot straight behind the counter could hit a passing employee. The top of the wall behind the counter offers a safe backstop while ensuring no one could be between the gun and the target, while at the same time allowing the customer to get a better feel for the gun than if they were aiming at the floor. Also, having all the customers aim in the same direction makes it easier to identify anyone who may be doing something with a gun other than testing its sights and trigger pull.
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Old August 30, 2012, 02:25 AM   #29
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Begs the question: how many forum members have witnessed / experienced an accidental firing of a weapon, either as an owner/employee of a gun shop or as a bystander?
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Old August 30, 2012, 05:49 AM   #30
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I dry fire... because it will NEVER ruin a gun despite claims to the otherwise and you will have to check the trigger pull and feel. I ask first, then take out the magazine and rack the slide three times.

Also, if I'm serious, I ask them if I can take it apart and see if there's any rust inside the slide and check the inside of the barrel for any damage. It's humid down here and gun stores don't always take the best care of their guns.

You can also look down the magwell for scuffing to see if the gun is really "new" because you'll scrape the finish off metal (or scratch plastic) when you throw a magazine in there a few dozen times.
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Old August 30, 2012, 07:34 AM   #31
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Instruct the dolt behind the counter in what ways you want him to handle the gun. Check if empty, check safety, dry fire, do poses with it. Then you can really see what YOU will look like with the gun.

LOL - you only live once.
Quote:
Respectfully... You guys must be the unluckiest folks I know... where every gun shop sales person you encounter deserves such disrespect and disdain.
I fully understand if you have one or two bad apples that you always seem to get at your LGS... but please don't lump them all together into a generic "gunshop sales person" corner.
"Theohazard" seems to be a good example of a thoughtful and considerate sales person... you wouldn't belittle him because of his profession would you?

Generic rant on...

The sales people that work in gun shops are a cross section of America. White, black, brown etc... men and women, young and old, trying to earn a living.
Most are good, some bad. Most are knowledgeable, some not. Most who have been doing it for awhile are slightly paranoid of being shot by an ignorant customer... some have been.
Many are retired military... and many wounded in service to our country. Some are actual, real live "Rocket Scientists" who lost their jobs in the recent unpleasantness... and working in a gun shop at 1/10 their previous salary is what they could get.
The best thing is, you can just about guarantee that no matter their political leanings, they are all pro gun.

It costs nothing to show a bit of kindness and respect to someone who is working in, what can be, a dangerous environment.
You assumed IMO what I meant in my statement. My problem with the generic gun shop employee is that they don't know often what they should know. It has nothing to do with their job vs mine. I'm not arrogant enough to look down at someone because of what they do. I once had the crappy dead end low paying job myself. Its more or less a guess as to why anyone has any job that they have. Its not wise to assume what kind of a person they are based on their job.

My statement centered around how incompetent they can be. I won't look down at a Mcdonalds employee, but on the other hand, I expect a milkshake and a med fry if I order a milkshake and a med fry - in other words, whatever your job is, you should be able to do it, and do it well. No one is perfect on the other hand.

When I go to gunshops, I usually meet someone (store owner, employee, etc) that says something thats either: flat out wrong (the Italians made Lugers) in an effort to sell a gun they have in stock, something thats baseless "people say a 45 is more accurate than a 9mm" or they tell me which gun is a good collectible "this woodsman (80%, wrong grips and mag) is a great investment" when I usually know more than they about the guns that I like. All of these things annoy me esp if I try to correct the person, and they argue. On occassion they assume that I am wrong because I am often younger than that person which is a logical fallacy / major assumption. Its just a pet peeve of mine. I know in 5 min if someone took the time to read and learn the things that I have read and learned, or if they are well experienced about a given gun related subject. I can tell when someone doesn't know or is trying just to make a sale. The other thing that adds to this frustration of mine is that when I sell a gun, and I have sold a fair amount, I tell the truth about the gun and if I make a conjecture, I can support it. I don't need to be a "used car salesman" to sell the guns that I have sold because I avoid the crap that gun shops occasionally deal in. Its very true that "a good gun sells itself" and that no BS needs to be done. Sometimes they didn't know themselves that they bought a mediocre or less than mediocre gun, but IMO they should know more often than I observe that they do.

Of course there are gun shops that know what they're doing, and are honest, with fair opinions of their inventory, but more often, I have not observed that in my experience.
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Old August 30, 2012, 07:35 AM   #32
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Whether dry firing will hurt a gun or not is completely irrelevant. It's simply rude to dry fire another person's gun without first getting permission. It's also rude to start racking the slide or working the action of any gun in a store if you really aren't considering buying it. It's like asking to test drive a new car just so you can go on a little joy ride and say you drove the latest model Corvette.

I can guaranty you that most people don't want anyone dry firing their guns. Just ask yourself: Would it bother you if a friend picked up your gun and started dry firing it without asking your permission?
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Old August 30, 2012, 07:47 AM   #33
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When using their bullseye 1911's, I have been told by multiple NAVSEA armorers not to rack the slide on an empty chamber or to dry fire on an empty...because dropping the hammer on an empty chamber and releasing the slide on an empty chamber can cause hammer bounce back which will damage the delicate sear engagment surface sooner than later.
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Old August 30, 2012, 09:12 AM   #34
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how many forum members have witnessed / experienced an accidental firing of a weapon, either as an owner/employee of a gun shop or as a bystander?
Yep. Twice in the store, twice directly witnessed in the parking lot, and two others I'm certain of but did not witness in the parking lot.

Quote:
I dry fire... because it will NEVER ruin a gun despite claims to the otherwise and you will have to check the trigger pull and feel.
That's not completely true when it comes to rimfires.
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Old August 30, 2012, 09:30 AM   #35
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Instruct the dolt behind the counter in what ways you want him to handle the gun.

.........takes one to know one.


Quote:
It costs nothing to show a bit of kindness and respect to someone who is working in, what can be, a dangerous environment.
This. The folks behind the counter at my LGS are the owners. Or their kids who have been there since they were old enough to walk. The shop has been in existence for over 100 years. These folks know guns inside and out. Still, there's always those that walk in and instantly talk down to them and try to impress them and everyone else in the store with their knowledge. You know the one's....they think they could've won the west. They generally walk in with their chest stuck out and walk out with their tail between their legs. Still, even tho they don't show respect to the owners, the owners still show respect to the braggarts. Shows a lot about integrity.
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Old August 30, 2012, 10:08 AM   #36
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Begs the question: how many forum members have witnessed / experienced an accidental firing of a weapon, either as an owner/employee of a gun shop or as a bystander?


Not a firearm,but once in a very crowed store they were checking a customers draw lenth on his bow with a arrow marked in inches. He had it at full draw and released itIt bounced around the store nearly missing several people including me and my young son.
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Old August 30, 2012, 10:24 AM   #37
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Nearly missing?

Quote:
Not a firearm,but once in a very crowed store they were checking a customers draw lenth on his bow with a arrow marked in inches. He had it at full draw and released itIt bounced around the store nearly missing several people including me and my young son.
Too bad it didn't miss those people. Hope everyone recovered okay.

Just kidding. I know what you meant. I'm from the South where nearly is synonamous with almost. We would have said "barely missing" or "nearly hitting". It just sounded funny to me.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:24 AM   #38
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[QUOTE]:
Instruct the dolt behind the counter in what ways you want him to handle the gun.


.........takes one to know one.



Quote:
It costs nothing to show a bit of kindness and respect to someone who is working in, what can be, a dangerous environment.

This. The folks behind the counter at my LGS are the owners. Or their kids who have been there since they were old enough to walk. The shop has been in existence for over 100 years. These folks know guns inside and out. Still, there's always those that walk in and instantly talk down to them and try to impress them and everyone else in the store with their knowledge. You know the one's....they think they could've won the west. They generally walk in with their chest stuck out and walk out with their tail between their legs. Still, even tho they don't show respect to the owners, the owners still show respect to the braggarts. Shows a lot about integrity. [Quote]

There are no "dolts" working behind the counters of the gun stores I shop at. However, I have seen more than a couple doltish customers. A little bit of civility goes a long way in my experience.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:31 AM   #39
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OP here, and to just make clear, in case my original post did not, I always ask if it is ok to dry fire. I just assume almost everything else, working action etc etc, is ok to do.

On a side note, one time while in a LGS I asked about a Browning Hi Power, but I accidentally called it a Hi Point. The owner acted as if I was no good and refused to acknowledge me anymore after that. I have not been to that store since.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:32 AM   #40
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I dry fire... because it will NEVER ruin a gun despite claims to the otherwise
Taurus specifically warns against dry-firing at least some of their revolvers. Whether this practice will "ruin" their guns, I don't know-but said admonition is in their manuals.
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Old August 30, 2012, 11:48 AM   #41
aarondhgraham
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In my glove compartment,,,

In my glove compartment,,,
Is a baggie with a few snap caps in it.

I agree with Skans in that
Quote:
It's simply rude to dry fire another person's gun without first getting permission.
So if I am at a pawn shop, gun store, or gun show,,,
I would always ask if I can load some snap caps to check the trigger.

If they then say no,,,
I assume there is something they are hiding,,,
I am probably overboard in that assumption but I won't buy a gun from them.

Gun shop etiquette is not standardized,,,
I just try and be polite and ask for permission.

If they won't give it,,,
I won't give them my money.

Aarond

.
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Old August 30, 2012, 12:08 PM   #42
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Freebird75: Hi Power and Hi Point are vastly different, but I too have on occasion misstated the name of one or the other because the names are similar, sort of. I think if the gun store owner made such an issue of calling the Hi Power a Hi Point I wouldn't go there again either.
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Old August 30, 2012, 12:35 PM   #43
481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard:
In my opinion, yes. In our store most of the customers try to aim out the window or past us at the wall behind the counter. If an accidental discharge occurred, a shot out the window would be potentially dangerous, and a shot straight behind the counter could hit a passing employee. The top of the wall behind the counter offers a safe backstop while ensuring no one could be between the gun and the target, while at the same time allowing the customer to get a better feel for the gun than if they were aiming at the floor. Also, having all the customers aim in the same direction makes it easier to identify anyone who may be doing something with a gun other than testing its sights and trigger pull.
Sounds like you have put some thought into how to handle this issue and selected a safe aiming point for that purpose.

The reason that I asked this question is that while I am fairly certain that such accidents are relatively rare, they do happen- an employee may be distracted or having an "off" day, some weird circumstance results in the event- and because of that, I've always wondered why gun stores don't regularly use a "clearance barrel" (55-gallon drum filled with sand and set at an appropriate angle) set off to the side of the counter where customers can dry-fire their prospective purchase to their heart's content.

I am not sure if it'd be a hindrance to business or not, the cost is negligible (about $100 to make a really nice one painted nice'n pretty) afterall, and it'd go a long way towards guaranteeing the customers' safety while mitigating your liability as a shop owner.

Am I "off base" here, T?
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Old August 30, 2012, 01:30 PM   #44
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When I go into the shops, I ask to not only see the guns, but I also ask about holsters so I can try out my quick draw in front of the staff.

That always makes them nervous.
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Old August 30, 2012, 01:30 PM   #45
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Quote:
Instruct the dolt behind the counter in what ways you want him to handle the gun.
Quote:
.........takes one to know one.
Well thanks for the genius rebuttal. Is your goal to make you look bad or me look bad, I can't tell?

Quote:
There are no "dolts" working behind the counters of the gun stores I shop at. However, I have seen more than a couple doltish customers. A little bit of civility goes a long way in my experience.
Ok point taken. While I have met dolts at shops or shows, my post that ruffled feathers was a poor attempt at humor. Having the gun shop guy handle your firearm, for you, was intended to be laughable but it was not. I do not think gun shop employees are dolts, unless they prove otherwise.

Quote:
The folks behind the counter at my LGS are the owners. Or their kids who have been there since they were old enough to walk. The shop has been in existence for over 100 years. These folks know guns inside and out. Still, there's always those that walk in and instantly talk down to them and try to impress them and everyone else in the store with their knowledge.
Um so, where do I begin? I'm guessing you go to one shop and thats the only shop you know. In the real world, no, gun shop owners do not even usually know guns in my experience. They might, they might not. Some know Remington 700s which they think translates to S&W 357s and so and so forth. This doesn't bother me because occasionally this helps get a better price on something, but I trust myself more than someone behind a counter until they earn my trust. To think that they do know their business, just because they exist, is just plain foolish. Its a bad practice to have to rely on others for knowledge, its always better to know yourself. Some dealers / shop employees are impressive, other ones are there for a pay check. Thats how it is for most any job.

Occasionally the gun shops get talked down to because the customer is a jerk, or because the gunshop makes a stupid mistake. It happens all the time. I'm not saying talking down to anyone to is right though. I'm not sure what you mean here but for the most part, the knowledgeable people don't try to impress others. Its people who are uncomfortable with who they are who only want to impress people that act like that. I actually do know what I'm talking about regarding some guns, and I don't try to impress anyone because thats not the goal.

Quote:
You know the one's....they think they could've won the west.They generally walk in with their chest stuck out and walk out with their tail between their legs. Still, even tho they don't show respect to the owners, the owners still show respect to the braggarts
I notice that this line is coincidentally my signature line which is very light hearted. Another thing that you had little insight about. I don't fit the cartoonish image you dreamed up whether you think so or not. Interesting how you can say such a thing based on an internet message board. I would hope you're making a lot of money as a psychologist, and if you're not that, then you're more of a "puffed out chest" internet psychologist than anything. How many times have foolish assumptions caused you grief in life?

Why would I or anyone let on to a gunshop that I know things esp if they don't? Doesn't that make my cause harder? Logic anyone?
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Old August 30, 2012, 02:36 PM   #46
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Quote:
Instruct the dolt behind the counter in what ways you want him to handle the gun.
I think that, if you would have said a dolt (which implies the exception) as opposed to the dolt (which implies the common place), less feathers would have been "ruffled."

Quote:
Why would I or anyone let on to a gunshop that I know things esp if they don't? Doesn't that make my cause harder? Logic anyone?
Yep, I agree with you on that (assuming I'm understanding what you're getting at). No need to appear smart when coming off as uninformed might well garner you a bargaining edge when consummating a "deal", if played right.
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Old August 30, 2012, 02:56 PM   #47
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You control, your call. ...

Quote:
481 posted:
This brings to mind a question. Is this (ie: using these aiming points as a backstop) really considered to be a safe/acceptable practice?
In most cases, it is but I don't assume so. Although not always perfect, there is always at least one direction that is safer than most. In some stores, I have seen where they don't have a designated direction or the clerk is totally uninformed about firearms. ....

Case in point;
A young male clerk upon handing me a handgun, directed me to keep the muzzle pointed behind the counter. I replied the he was behind the counter and that was not a safe direction. He said that was the store policy. I asked him what was above the ceiling and he replied, the roof, I guess. Still didn't get it. ...

At our station, during our hunter safety classes, I ask the students to define the safe direction at that time. Most are pretty good at it. ...

Be Safe !!!
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Old August 30, 2012, 03:31 PM   #48
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Pahoo,

Yeah, your response gets at what I have been wondering about.

Fr'instance, lots of folks point the gun they are dry-firing at the floor. If they happen to pop one off, it may not strike someone directly, but it may fragment upon hitting a hard surface (like a concrete floor), the pieces going on to strike and possibly injure nearby people.

I s'pose my question is more of a question to how desirable such options are, especially in light of the option of using a clearance barrel.
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Old August 30, 2012, 03:45 PM   #49
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No need to appear smart when coming off as uninformed might well garner you a bargaining edge when consummating a "deal", if played right.
How would that work well? I would think that being well-informed would be more advantageous than ignorance, either real or feigned.

Have never feigned ignorance myself, sometimes I just don't do enough research. This is only usually a problem for me at shows, where you can do all the research under the sun on Guns A - X, but maybe didn't quite make it to the chapter on Y and that is what you found. The LGS's I frequent tend to be very helpful.
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Old August 30, 2012, 03:59 PM   #50
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Taurus specifically warns against dry-firing at least some of their revolvers.
Any center fire revolver that can't be dry fired, can't be trusted IMO.
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