The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 7, 2020, 09:54 PM   #1
Prof Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Posts: 1,746
Why the difference?

Using Modern Reloading, second edition by Richard Lee.
Reloading 44 magnum.
Looking at formulas for 300 grain JHP and 300 grain XTP.
Why would the formulas for those two bullets be so different?

Lots to learn, lots to learn.

Life is good.
Prof Young
Prof Young is offline  
Old January 7, 2020, 10:01 PM   #2
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: Potatoes and Hops
Posts: 12,105
Lee's data is aggregated from other manuals, lumped together, and presented without the original details. Quite a bit is lost in the process.

I haven't checked the manual to see for certain, but I would not be surprised if the data is from two different manufacturers. It is generally true.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old January 7, 2020, 10:04 PM   #3
Prof Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Posts: 1,746
Okay, let me ask this . . . .

Okay, let me ask this . . . would the formula for a 300 grain JHP work for a 300 grain XTP and vice versa?

Life is good.
Prof Young
Prof Young is offline  
Old January 7, 2020, 10:21 PM   #4
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 9,829
I'm not seeing a significant difference in my manual. Which specific load?

A max load in a manual doesn't always mean that is actually the max safe load. It's just as far as that manufacturer tested it. Another manufacturer might keep adding more powder to prove that it is safe. That is often the case when you see differences between load data.

Due to their shape some bullets simply have more surface in contact with the barrel. That increases pressure and the same powder charge could be over pressure compared to another bullet of the same weight, but with less surface contacting the barrel.

A pointed bullet of the same weight will be longer overall, but have less contact with the barrel than a bullet with a flatter nose.

Some bullets must be seated deeper in the case in order to chamber. This limits available case volume.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong"

Winston Churchill
jmr40 is offline  
Old January 7, 2020, 10:52 PM   #5
AgedWarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2019
Location: NW Iowa
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof Young View Post
Okay, let me ask this . . . would the formula for a 300 grain JHP work for a 300 grain XTP and vice versa?

Life is good.
Prof Young
Maybe I am missing something here, but why not use Hornady data for loading the 300 XTP?
AgedWarrior is offline  
Old January 7, 2020, 11:12 PM   #6
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,850
Quote:
. . would the formula for a 300 grain JHP work for a 300 grain XTP and vice versa?
This is a yes and no kind of thing. Yes, when you are talking about "starting level loads" all bullet of the same weight will work well enough with the low level loads.

BUT, when you move past those, then you get into a range where the bearing surface of the bullet (the part in contact with the barrel) AND the composition of the jacket material (some are softer than others) can and do have significant effects.

A lead bullet and a jacketed bullet can weigh the same but each has a different resistance to the rifling digging in as it goes down the barrel. Two different jacketed bullets can differ in their resistance as well, a long bearing surface has more resistance than a short one, a harder alloy jacket has more resistance than a softer one.

All these things play a part in how soon a load reaches the max allowed working pressure, and what velocity is obtained at that pressure.

To further complicate matters every gun and ammo is slightly different. Sometimes a listed max load isn't the maximum safe load in every gun, but was in their test gun.

Most of the time, most combinations fall in the middle of the bell curve, and this is why reloading data is useful as GUIDELINES. But one needs to be aware that their test gun and ammo components are NOT identical to your gun and components. No matter how closely you try to match them, they will not be identical. GUIDELINES, not laws.

Everything made has tolerances. When things line up as usual you're in the middle of the curve, but it is always possible things will line up so your results are at either end of the curve. And there is NO WAY to know until you pull the trigger. If you're on the low end, you don't get the performance you want but otherwise, you're fine.

BUT, if you're on the high end, you might be at dangerous level just starting out, which is why we always say "start low, work up, slowly!"

Every combination of components and firearms can be different. Sometimes radically different. This is why everyone's data is different.

again, GUIDELINES, not rules or laws...

Quote:
Maybe I am missing something here, but why not use Hornady data for loading the 300 XTP?
I would use Hornady data for a Hornady bullet. They test them. Understanding that the results I get should be about what Hornady got, but COULD be different, and start at the low end to see what actually happens in my gun in my hands.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old January 8, 2020, 01:44 AM   #7
Prof Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Posts: 1,746
My goal here is . . .

What I'm trying to do is develop a 44 mag load, that I can use out of my super blackhawk as a hunting load. I've got the 300 grain JHP, and am looking for a powder that will send it on its way fast. The formulas in the lee manual for the 300 grain JHP are not many and the powders listed, in my experience, are harder to find. The 300 grain XTP on the other hand lists a boat load of more common, easier to find powders. Hence my questions.

Life is good.
Prof Young
Prof Young is offline  
Old January 8, 2020, 12:22 PM   #8
mikld
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2009
Location: Southern Oregon!
Posts: 2,888
Not meaning to be snarky, but you need a better manual. I agree with FrankenMauser's post.I got a Lee manual to add to my library, sorta "round it out". I have found the front half to be an interesting and entertaining read, but the data is sketchy and lacking, and I too jave found some loads listed with one powder manufacturer. If I were developing a load with a specific manufacturer's bullet, I would start with the manufacturer's data. And as 44 AMP explained, if you choose a different bullet of the same weight, begin with starting loads and work up...
__________________
My Anchor is holding fast!
I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...
mikld is offline  
Old January 8, 2020, 12:47 PM   #9
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,850
Quote:
What I'm trying to do is develop a 44 mag load, that I can use out of my super blackhawk as a hunting load. I've got the 300 grain JHP, and am looking for a powder that will send it on its way fast
There isn't any. Fast and the 300gr bullet in .44 Magnum (from a 7.5" barrel) don't go together, not if you define "fast" the way I do.

7th edition Hornady data using a 7.5" REDHAWK and the 300gr #44280 HP-XTP lists 10 powders. everything at max made 1100fps. 4 powders at max made 1150fps. only 2, H110 and W296 made 1200fps at MAX load.

I count 11-1200fps as respectable, but not "fast".

I do not use bullets heavier than 240/250gr in my .44s. So I can't tell you from personal experience about the 300s. I can tell you that SOME .300gr loads are too long for the cylinders of some guns. From what I've read there are 300gr loads that will only fit in the Redhawk/Super Redhawk, and are too long to work in a S&W. I do not know if those loads will fit in a Super Blackhawk, or not. So, its something you need to be aware of and check.

Other than you have them, why are you looking to use the 300gr for a hunting load? 240gr bullets will shoot through deer, and according to a friend who's done it, will shoot through elk, as well.

In the last decade or so, Internet pundits have made it seem that if you aren't shooting the 300gr in .44, then your bullets will bounce off...

This is, of course entirely, false, but it has sold a heck of a lot of 300gr bullets. Oh, and the 300gr bullets WILL kick worse. I have shot some, there is a noticeable difference. The Superblackhawk is pretty good (as .44 mags go) at handling recoil, better than the S&W, and I have rubber grips on both. If you get 300gr up to the 1100fps level I think you will find a noticeable difference in the recoil than shooting a 240 at 1400.

and, just fyi and just my opinion, but don't get your loading data from LEE.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old January 8, 2020, 01:12 PM   #10
Dufus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,874
The heaviest I shoot in the 44 mag is my home cast 260 gr hollow point. I purposely load it to 1250 fps max and most of the time to 1150 fps.

I agree with 44 AMP in my loading philosophy in the bullets I use. I've tried lighter and a little heavier but have not loaded anything but 240-260 grain bullets for decades.

Just a side note: anyone that pushes "hardcast" 300 grain gascheck bullets is blowing smoke up your ass. Hardcast, gaschecks, and 300 grain are not needed.

Before I learned my lessons the hard way, I used to make a bullet that was so hard it would pass thru an 20" diameter willow tree and still looked as good as it did before pulling the trigger. They would lead a barrel like no other.
Dufus is offline  
Old January 8, 2020, 03:00 PM   #11
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,844
"...formula for a 300 grain JHP work for a 300 grain XTP..." Yep. Both are jacketed bullets and you load for the bullet weight, not its construction or shape.
"...send it on its way fast...." What's the barrel length? Then start with the powder used for the accuracy load. Dunno if the Lee book has that, but the Lyman book does.
"...lists a boat load of more common..." That's because a JHP is kind of generic. Hornady is working hard on marketing the XTP's. They're still just another JHP though.
Out of idle curiosity, what are you planning on hunting that you think you need a 300 grain bullet to kill?
"...blowing smoke..." No dinner or sweet nothings whispered in your ear either. snicker.
As mentioned, Lee tests nothing themselves. All their data comes from the powder maker's(usually). It's entirely possible that they got the JHP data from one source and the XTP from Hodgdon(their site showing they tested with an XTP).
However, all manuals will be different anyway. Hodgdon tested with an 8.275" barrel. Alliant's site says they used a 7.5" barrel but tested 2 powders with a 300 grain bullet only. No$ler used a custom 8.25" Douglas barrel. Then you get into the actual components used and the environmental conditions on the day of the test. All of that creates differences.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old January 8, 2020, 03:47 PM   #12
Pikie
Member
 
Join Date: August 26, 2002
Posts: 29
"...formula for a 300 grain JHP work for a 300 grain XTP..." Yep. Both are jacketed bullets and you load for the bullet weight, not its construction or shape.

That is not correct. Hollow point bullets with wider or deeper hollow points may be a good bit longer than others. This may require deeper seating in the case. Deeper seating causes higher pressure. Wadcutters are a perfect example why weight only is wrong. Again demonstrating it is not that easy. Be safe and work your load up.
Pikie is offline  
Old January 8, 2020, 07:20 PM   #13
KEYBEAR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 11, 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 941
I have shot and loaded for the 44 mag for close to 50 years it was and still is my number one . I shoot a lot of cast bullets and some jacketed and like the XTP 240 gr. . I had a chance to buy the 240 and 300 gr. from a person that needed money I bought 3,000 XTP,s
Most were 240gr. but some 300gr. (maybe 500) I shot some 240gr. out of a Ruger rife at 50 yards and they shot well at 100 yards they did ok drop was 2 inches (FINE) .

I did try the 300 gr. also at 50 yards not bad but more drop . Then I shot them at 100 yards the 300,gr. shot a total of 7 inches low . All 300 gr. were loaded to Max with W296 . bottom line is the 240 gr. bullets shot in the kill zone out to 150 yards with no hold over less then 3 inches drop . I have never seen a Deer needing any more then a 240 gr. XTP out of any Handgun or Rifle for most game .
KEYBEAR is offline  
Old January 8, 2020, 08:07 PM   #14
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 6,757
I've shot 44 mag loads for both my super Blackhawk hunter and Rossi lever carbine with loads that were as hot as I was willing to take them--if you want "fast" with a 300 gr bullet you're going to take a pounding with a handgun. Sweetspot for over-all performance (energy/velocity/ trajectory decay/reasonably controllable recoil etc) in my opinion is a 240 gr bullet like the xtp/gold dot/golden saber.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old January 8, 2020, 08:14 PM   #15
lugerstew
Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2019
Posts: 22
Ive only used 240 grain in my 44mag pistol and marlin carbine, they load and shoot great. A guy I used to work with said in Alaska, they mostly use the 300 grain loads for protection from Grizzly bear, does anyone else know if this is true and would a max loaded 300 grain take down a grizzly better than a max loaded 240 grain load? Just curios?
lugerstew is offline  
Old January 8, 2020, 08:55 PM   #16
Prof Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Posts: 1,746
I'm learning a lot here. Thanks.

Well, I bought the 300 grain JHP thinking I needed a heavy bullet to kill a deer with a hand gun. Thing is, I've killed deer with a 44mag shooting off the shelf loads that I don't recall much about. Should have kept records. The last deer I shot with a 44 mag ran off without a blood trail. Looked for hours and hours. I hit it right in the shoulder with an XTP that clearly I had under powered. So I gave up handgun hunting for a while. I'd like to hand gun hunt again, but I want to be sure I have a bullet that will do the trick. I figured heavy and fast would be the goal. Sounds like 240 grains would be heavy enough. In the mean time I'll stick with the 12 ga slug, which has never left me looking through the woods for a down deer. Thanks to all you have have added to this thread. I think I'll load the 300 grain JHP with minimum charges and see how well I can shoot them.

Life is good.

Prof Young
Prof Young is offline  
Old January 10, 2020, 06:25 PM   #17
zeke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,035
Unless i missed it, might help to specifically identify what 300 jhp you are actually using, and what velocity you are calling "fast" or desiring. If the manual just identifies a 300 jhp, without specifically identifying it, would not be relying on it. There is a whole lot of bullet/powder manufacturers reloading data on line.
zeke is offline  
Old January 11, 2020, 07:41 AM   #18
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,131
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
"...formula for a 300 grain JHP work for a 300 grain XTP..." Yep. Both are jacketed bullets and you load for the bullet weight, not its construction or shape.
For the most part, but......

Bearing surface and amount of base of the bullet in the case, making a difference in case capacity, can make a difference from one bullet from another.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old January 11, 2020, 06:20 PM   #19
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 13,891
Quote:
The last deer I shot with a 44 mag ran off without a blood trail. Looked for hours and hours. I hit it right in the shoulder with an XTP that clearly I had under powered.
Couple of comments here. Not trying to cast aspersions, just commenting.

Deer aren't that hard to kill. People shoot them with all kinds of low-powered cartridges and successfully harvest them. You don't need a 44 Mag to down one. I have killed deer with 357 Mag and 32-20 out of handguns with zero problems. Soooo, if you hit one "right in the shoulder" and it "ran off without a blood trail" then maybe you didn't hit it?!? Wouldn't be unheard of. But of course, if you ARE shooting deer that can shrug off a 44 Mag, I will avoid that part of the country just in case.

Kind of in line with the above, JHPs are designed to open fast. Probably not the best bullet for deer hunting. I would try a JSP.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old January 12, 2020, 03:36 PM   #20
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,850
Quote:
Kind of in line with the above, JHPs are designed to open fast. Probably not the best bullet for deer hunting. I would try a JSP.
I agree with this, in general, with the addition that JHP bullets that are designed for self defense use open "fastest".

The most common example is the .357 125gr JHP. These bullets are usually "optimized" for use against people and have limitations when used for deer hunting. (and especially if fired from a carbine! )

240gr JHP .44Mag slugs are not quite the same, and not (usually) made with use against humans in mind. They do open faster than the JSP, for sure, but not to the kind of degree you find in a .38/9mm cal JHP.

After my father took his second Adirondack whitetail with Rem 240 JHPs, he asked me if there was a load that would NOT shoot completely through the deer. I didn't know of any (back in the 70s) but suggested he try the 180gr. Circumstances prevented him from ever getting the chance, but that's another matter...

Friend of mine tells me .44 Mag will shoot through ELK, (broadside anyway), so I'd think going to the JSP over the JHP will just increase the odds of complete penetration. Not a totally undesirable thing, in many hunting circumstances.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old January 12, 2020, 06:53 PM   #21
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,131
Quote:
The last deer I shot with a 44 mag ran off without a blood trail. Looked for hours and hours. I hit it right in the shoulder with an XTP that clearly I had under powered.
Quote:
Kind of in line with the above, JHPs are designed to open fast. Probably not the best bullet for deer hunting. I would try a JSP.
Quote:
240gr JHP .44Mag slugs are not quite the same, and not (usually) made with use against humans in mind. They do open faster than the JSP, for sure, but not to the kind of degree you find in a .38/9mm cal JHP.
My experience has been that for the most part, handgun bullets are made for a specific purpose and made to perform terminally at specific velocities. There are JHPs in .357 intended for high velocity hunting loads that will not expand as much, nor as fast as some JSPs. Same goes for .44 mag. How the bullet is constructed(i.e. jacket thickness and hardness of core lead) makes as much of a difference than type(i.e. JHP vs JSP). For the most part, when it comes to a hunting bullet, you want the best of both worlds....penetration and expansion. For SD, you want something that will expand and not over penetrate and you are using it against an animal that is thin skinned and normally do not have to shoot thru the shoulders to get to the boiler room. More important than what type of bullet, is using the right bullet for the job. Know what the intended purpose is for the bullet you are using and know what velocities it is intended to be shot at. The 240 gr XTP is a great hunting bullet when used on deer sized game and shot from a handgun. Shoot it out of a carbine and it is a tad more fragile. The first comment quoted in this post tells a tale.....using it a a velocity below it's intended use probably turned it into a FMJ projectile without enough velocity to penetrate and/or expand. Projectiles that work so well outta a .45 colt @ 1100 FPS on deer, blow up upon impact when shot from a .460. I have found bullet manufacturers to be very responsive to inquiries about appropriate applications for their bullets. Have had more than one tell me that I should go another direction. If you have questions, ask, don't just make the assumption that just because it's a JHP, that it is not appropriate for deer and you need to use something else.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old January 12, 2020, 08:36 PM   #22
KEYBEAR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 11, 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 941
A lot of years ago being a teenager with very little money and deer on the farm i went cheap . I bought a Springfield 03A3 for $29.95 from a surplus store also some 30-06 Ball ammo . I would snip a little off the end of the bullet and did kill some deer . The good old days today people think you need a $1,000.00 Rifle with a $600.oo Scope and 40.00 box of ammo to kill a deer . Damm i guess I do ?
KEYBEAR is offline  
Old January 13, 2020, 09:19 PM   #23
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,581
I'm not an expert,but here goes.The rules that apply to centerfire rifle hunting don't apply to black powder level 45-70 loads.muzzle loaders,and heavy caliber handguns.
Cast bullets of large caliber are fine.I want a bullet that will not fragment Through penetration is good. Using most centerfire rifle cartidges,I like broadside,through the ribs,just behind the foreleg. Souping the heart/lung area without hitting major bone makes for quick kill without blowing the meat all to heck.

You can eat right up to the bullet hole with fat,heavy,handgun velocity bullets.

Its OK to bust the junction of the spine and shoulders Go for orthopedic damage more than soft tissue damage. You can use a 240 jsp,but a 240 gr Keith works. Wheel weights.

I had one elk experience with my .44 SBH. It was a 240 gr JSP..but I can't say for sure which.I suspect it may have been the Remington with the thin salloped jacket. The elk dropped DRT, neck shot ,base of the neck.The bullet broke vertebrae,but the vertebrae broke up the bullet and stopped it.

Bullet cornfakes don't penetrate well. I got just over maybe 60% penetration.on the neck. Neck is muscle,bone,and sinew. A rib shot is a lot about spongy lungs. Its a different resistance.

I don't doubt a 240 gr .44 bullet wil penetrate through,if properly constructed.
I bought 500 Laser Cast 300 gr Truncated cone. I don't recall exact vel. Over 1200. I thought they were fun to shoot. Flyng hammers.It bounced,but it didn't hurt I never shot game with them..but I wuld
HiBC is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09415 seconds with 8 queries