Help Identifying Oberndorf Sporter

Bigfatts · July 23, 2018, 06:50 PM

Another pawn shop find! It was simply marked "Mauser 8mm." Price wasn't offensive and it's a good looker so I brought it home. No actual caliber designation- I don't speak proof marks. Any info you can give is greatly appreciated.

ETA: See my post below (#6) to see what info I've come up with so far.

Ricklin · July 23, 2018, 07:21 PM

What is the lever on the magazine floorplate do? Is that the floorplate release?

Most have a recess that requires inserting a pointed object like say a round to push it. Then all the cartridges fall out.

I'm having hard time figuring out any other purpose for that lever, can't say I would like it if that is indeed what it does.

Jim Watson · July 23, 2018, 07:45 PM

156.14 is the GAUGE of the barrel, very old standard. Corresponds to a BORE diameter of 7.87mm, close enough to the 7.85 stamp.
8.15 is apparently the GROOVE diameter of .321" although I would have thought the "S" indicated a .323" groove. But I don't know how close the proof house actually measured barrels.

The "360" mystifies me. There is such a thing as an 8x57R360 but it is a rimmed cartridge normally found in drillings, not at all related to 8x57 Mauser or even 8x57R. Based on British .360 Express.
Very unlikely to be chambered in a bolt action so mostly I don't really know.

Sounds like another chamber cast n bore slug job, but I might just see if an 8x57 would chamber.

ETA Found another with the 8,0 N mark.

Ricklin, the lever floorplate release is a mark of a nice Mauser sporter, none of that military bullet nose junk.

Bigfatts · July 23, 2018, 08:15 PM

As Jim Watson says, the lever is the release for the floor plate. Hinged floor plate at that. Previous owner left his mark, but I don't mind.

Is there any chance at dating the rifle based on the serial number?

Also, I've never slugged a bore. Or cast a chamber. I'll do some research.

taylorce1 · July 24, 2018, 08:22 AM

Talk about a tease! Just enough pictures to get us interested, but not enough to appreciate the whole rifle. I don't know enough on Mausers to help identify the action, but from what I can tell it's a very nice sporting rifle. The jeweled bolt, butter knife bolt handle and set triggers are a nice touch.

Watch a few videos on YouTube on how to slug a bore, it's pretty straight forward. I've never chamber cast a rifle, as I've never bought one I was unsure on the cartridge it shot. If I bought something I was unsure of, I'd probably just take it to a gunsmith and have them figure it out.

Bigfatts · July 24, 2018, 03:22 PM

Ok, so combing the internet in an only slightly obsessive way I find that it looks like a variation of an early factory sporter- almost a dead ringer for a Type A or B. The description of the early B fits it almost exactly. Minor differences, but I'm seeing slight variations weren't uncommon within models. See link.

http://sportsmansvintagepress.com/re...auser-sporter/

As for the stamps, following the info JimWatson started me with, I have found that "8,0 N" is the caliber and translates to "8mm Normal" which referred to the 8x57 J, .318 loads. It also displays the "S" on the bottom of the barrel, indicating the updated .323 chamber throat size- which should make it safe with the .323 loads; taking that with a grain of salt and will probably stick to the .318's. The other markings are land/groove measurements that confirm 8x57J. The only marking I can't place is the ".360", which I have only seen referring to 9.3x62- which can't be right. Could just be a stamp the meaning of which has been lost to the ages.

Bigfatts · July 24, 2018, 03:42 PM

A couple more photos, just because. Also, the only thing missing on the rifle is the front sight post. Any recommendations for a replacement and what height I should use?

fourbore · July 24, 2018, 05:14 PM

Just a wild guess. Could 360 be twist in mm ( 1 :14 inch) ?

JRR · July 24, 2018, 05:55 PM

This should help somewhat.
http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html

taylorce1 · July 24, 2018, 11:30 PM

Call Williams Gunsight Company for a front sight, they can probably help you. You might have to try a few to match the sights to your ammo when you figure that out. That's a pretty nice rifle, really old school. Only thing I'd change is the poor fitting recoil pad for a nicer grind to fit pad like a Pachmayr.

Bigfatts · July 25, 2018, 03:50 AM

The recoil pad is second on the list, right after the front sight. Doubt I'll find an original Mauser pad, but something clean and tasteful.

taylorce1 · July 25, 2018, 07:24 AM

I really doubt it originally had a recoil pad, more than likely it had a butt plate of some sort. Google and read about "Cigarette Rifles", thats what your rifle reminds me of. I'm not saying it is one, it's done in the style of one that is for sure.

I clicked into your Photobucket account when I posted previously about a butter knife bolt handle. I didn't realize I was looking at a bolt from a different rifle, you have a lot of nicely done sporters in there. This one should be a great addition to your collection.

Jim Watson · July 25, 2018, 08:24 AM

Brownells has a tall Mauser blade meant to bring military sights down to hunting and plinking ranges. File to suit. But did they use the same dovetail on sporters? I dunno.

Ricklin · July 25, 2018, 09:56 AM

Very nice. Not sure I would like the lever release for the floor plate. As long as it has a good detent to prevent it being accidentally opened I would be good with it. That or requiring a long stroke of the lever would be OK too.

mete · July 25, 2018, 11:23 AM

No, the operation of the floor plate lever is to move the lever , which opens the
floor plate and the ammo then can be found under the gun in the snow !

Bigfatts · July 25, 2018, 12:54 PM

Quote:

I really doubt it originally had a recoil pad, more than likely it had a butt plate of some sort.

Yeah, I misspoke. Most specs I've come across mention a steel or horn butt plate. My other Oberndorf has a plate made out of I don't know what that says "Mauser" on it. Something similar possibly.

Bigfatts · July 25, 2018, 02:21 PM

Quote:

I clicked into your Photobucket account when I posted previously about a butter knife bolt handle. I didn't realize I was looking at a bolt from a different rifle, you have a lot of nicely done sporters in there. This one should be a great addition to hour collection.

Check the Smithy subforum for the painfully sad tale of that butter knife bolt handle. Damn near broke my heart.

Scorch · July 25, 2018, 07:02 PM

That's beautiful, Bigfatts. I've been looking for an original B Sporter like that for a long time. Got close a couple of times, but I have never actually scored one. I'm jealous!

Bigfatts · July 25, 2018, 07:52 PM

Thanks, Scorch. I feel lucky to have happened across it. Prices on them seem steep, but I don't think the shop knew anything about it- not that I did at the time. This one and the one with the busted recoil lug I posted about in the Smithy came from the same owner. Someone's father passed and his guns got pawned. I don't know who he was, but the man had fine taste in rifles. There may be a couple more yet to hit the shelf, I will definitely be checking back.

Paul B. · July 26, 2018, 05:36 PM

You might seriously consider a chamber cast before you you shoot it. According to my copy of Mauser Rifles and pistols, the type B was chambered in the following cartridges.

7x57MM, 8x60MM, 9.3x62MM and 10.75x68MM

Shooting a cartridge 3MM too short would be a serious headspace problem. The book also stated a .315" bore so slugging the barrel might not be a bad idea.

The 8x60 was Germany's way of getting around the ban on them making rifles and ammo in 8x57 after the end of World War one. As your pictures show what looks like the original barrel, I'm thinking it's an 8x60, not 8x57.

IIRC, all they did was lengthen the case to get past the ban and chamber accordingly. The 30-06 case is 62 or 63MM so you should be able make 8x60 brass for that rifle should it be necessary. Brass for the .270 and .280 are IIRC about one millimeter longer so those should work as well. Might be easier than chasing down brass from Europe like Norma, Lapua or RWS.
Paul B.

Bigfatts · July 26, 2018, 09:23 PM

From what I can tell, all the markings on the rifle add up to 8x57J, particularly the "8,0 N" markings that designate the 8x57J. I know rifles could be ordered in non standard calibers, so it's possible to have them in other calibers. I also found reference to another B with a 79xxx serial that was dated to 1914, so that would put it before the 8x60. Those chambered for 8x60 seem to be clearly marked as well. I'm going to take it to a smith to deal with that butt pad, so I'll see if he can cast it too.

J.G. Terry · August 13, 2018, 07:09 AM

The bolt handle has been lowered and the bolt has been engine turned. The low bolt handle suggest plans for mounting a scope with US made base. I'd also suggest doing a chamber cast. What it was does not guarantee what it is now. It was not unusual to have bring backs rechambered to 8mm-06. Might held to slug the bore. Was not Waffenfabric Mauser a pre-WWI marking? What's the chance of part of the marks being scrubbed?

F. Guffey · August 19, 2018, 11:19 AM

Too bad there are no case formers involved. It is not that I struggled but forming cases was difficult until I got up to 16 forming dies, The best forming dies I have are for chambers I do not have. And then there is the 308 W forming die, that one is a money saver because it is short. My second most favorite forming die is the 243 W forming die.

Casting a chamber: Because my methods and or techniques are so different from the internet method which is; "you need to case your chamber" I will avoid angering members.

F. Guffey

J.G. Terry · August 19, 2018, 02:08 PM

That case method is a good way to get your butt blown into the bushes. Enjoy the ride.

F. Guffey · August 19, 2018, 03:43 PM

Quote:

That case method is a good way to get your butt blown into the bushes. Enjoy the ride.

What method?: case method?

Quote:

Shooting a cartridge 3MM too short would be a serious headspace problem. The book also stated a .315" bore so slugging the barrel might not be a bad idea.

Shooting a case in a chamber that is 3MM short escaped your notice, I built an 8MM06 and fired 8MM57 ammo in it. I know, I have heard all the horror stories and I do not recommend the practice but there has to be something and or a lot about the Mauser reloaders do not understand.

The 8mm57 round is .127" shorter from the shoulder to the case head than the 8MM06 chamber when measured from the shoulder to the bolt face. .127" could be considered 3MM.

When I extracted the cases after firing the cases came out as 8MM06 cases with very short necks. I know; no one understands what that means; what that means the case did not make the big rush for the front of the chamber and the shoulder of the case never made it to the shoulder of the chamber. Meaning? The firing pin did not drive the case forward when it struck the primer.

The shoulder on the fired cases was not the same shoulder the case started with, the old shoulder became part of the case body and the new shoulder was formed from the neck and shoulder.

The case shortened from the end of the neck to the case head but got longer from the shoulder to the case head.

F. Guffey

July 23, 2018, 06:50 PM	#1
Bigfatts Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2005 Location: Lutz Posts: 1,528	Help Identifying Oberndorf Sporter Another pawn shop find! It was simply marked "Mauser 8mm." Price wasn't offensive and it's a good looker so I brought it home. No actual caliber designation- I don't speak proof marks. Any info you can give is greatly appreciated. ETA: See my post below (#6) to see what info I've come up with so far. Last edited by Bigfatts; July 25, 2018 at 02:33 PM.

July 23, 2018, 07:21 PM	#2
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,013	What is the lever on the magazine floorplate do? Is that the floorplate release? Most have a recess that requires inserting a pointed object like say a round to push it. Then all the cartridges fall out. I'm having hard time figuring out any other purpose for that lever, can't say I would like it if that is indeed what it does. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

July 23, 2018, 07:45 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	156.14 is the GAUGE of the barrel, very old standard. Corresponds to a BORE diameter of 7.87mm, close enough to the 7.85 stamp. 8.15 is apparently the GROOVE diameter of .321" although I would have thought the "S" indicated a .323" groove. But I don't know how close the proof house actually measured barrels. The "360" mystifies me. There is such a thing as an 8x57R360 but it is a rimmed cartridge normally found in drillings, not at all related to 8x57 Mauser or even 8x57R. Based on British .360 Express. Very unlikely to be chambered in a bolt action so mostly I don't really know. Sounds like another chamber cast n bore slug job, but I might just see if an 8x57 would chamber. ETA Found another with the 8,0 N mark. Ricklin, the lever floorplate release is a mark of a nice Mauser sporter, none of that military bullet nose junk. Last edited by Jim Watson; July 23, 2018 at 07:56 PM.

July 24, 2018, 08:22 AM	#5
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	Talk about a tease! Just enough pictures to get us interested, but not enough to appreciate the whole rifle. I don't know enough on Mausers to help identify the action, but from what I can tell it's a very nice sporting rifle. The jeweled bolt, butter knife bolt handle and set triggers are a nice touch. Watch a few videos on YouTube on how to slug a bore, it's pretty straight forward. I've never chamber cast a rifle, as I've never bought one I was unsure on the cartridge it shot. If I bought something I was unsure of, I'd probably just take it to a gunsmith and have them figure it out. __________________ NRA Life Member

July 24, 2018, 11:30 PM	#10
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	Call Williams Gunsight Company for a front sight, they can probably help you. You might have to try a few to match the sights to your ammo when you figure that out. That's a pretty nice rifle, really old school. Only thing I'd change is the poor fitting recoil pad for a nicer grind to fit pad like a Pachmayr. __________________ NRA Life Member

July 23, 2018, 08:15 PM	#4
Bigfatts Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2005 Location: Lutz Posts: 1,528	As Jim Watson says, the lever is the release for the floor plate. Hinged floor plate at that. Previous owner left his mark, but I don't mind. Is there any chance at dating the rifle based on the serial number? Also, I've never slugged a bore. Or cast a chamber. I'll do some research.

July 24, 2018, 03:22 PM	#6
Bigfatts Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2005 Location: Lutz Posts: 1,528	Ok, so combing the internet in an only slightly obsessive way I find that it looks like a variation of an early factory sporter- almost a dead ringer for a Type A or B. The description of the early B fits it almost exactly. Minor differences, but I'm seeing slight variations weren't uncommon within models. See link. http://sportsmansvintagepress.com/re...auser-sporter/ As for the stamps, following the info JimWatson started me with, I have found that "8,0 N" is the caliber and translates to "8mm Normal" which referred to the 8x57 J, .318 loads. It also displays the "S" on the bottom of the barrel, indicating the updated .323 chamber throat size- which should make it safe with the .323 loads; taking that with a grain of salt and will probably stick to the .318's. The other markings are land/groove measurements that confirm 8x57J. The only marking I can't place is the ".360", which I have only seen referring to 9.3x62- which can't be right. Could just be a stamp the meaning of which has been lost to the ages. Last edited by Bigfatts; July 24, 2018 at 03:43 PM.

July 24, 2018, 03:42 PM	#7
Bigfatts Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2005 Location: Lutz Posts: 1,528	A couple more photos, just because. Also, the only thing missing on the rifle is the front sight post. Any recommendations for a replacement and what height I should use?

July 24, 2018, 05:14 PM	#8
fourbore Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2015 Location: new england Posts: 1,159	Just a wild guess. Could 360 be twist in mm ( 1 :14 inch) ?

July 24, 2018, 05:55 PM	#9
JRR Member Join Date: January 5, 2001 Location: N. Calif. Posts: 53	This should help somewhat. http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html

July 25, 2018, 03:50 AM	#11
Bigfatts Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2005 Location: Lutz Posts: 1,528	The recoil pad is second on the list, right after the front sight. Doubt I'll find an original Mauser pad, but something clean and tasteful.

July 25, 2018, 07:24 AM	#12
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	I really doubt it originally had a recoil pad, more than likely it had a butt plate of some sort. Google and read about "Cigarette Rifles", thats what your rifle reminds me of. I'm not saying it is one, it's done in the style of one that is for sure. I clicked into your Photobucket account when I posted previously about a butter knife bolt handle. I didn't realize I was looking at a bolt from a different rifle, you have a lot of nicely done sporters in there. This one should be a great addition to your collection. __________________ NRA Life Member Last edited by taylorce1; July 25, 2018 at 06:27 PM.

July 25, 2018, 08:24 AM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Brownells has a tall Mauser blade meant to bring military sights down to hunting and plinking ranges. File to suit. But did they use the same dovetail on sporters? I dunno.

July 25, 2018, 09:56 AM	#14
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,013	Sure looks nice Very nice. Not sure I would like the lever release for the floor plate. As long as it has a good detent to prevent it being accidentally opened I would be good with it. That or requiring a long stroke of the lever would be OK too. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

July 25, 2018, 11:23 AM	#15
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	No, the operation of the floor plate lever is to move the lever , which opens the floor plate and the ammo then can be found under the gun in the snow ! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

July 25, 2018, 07:02 PM	#18
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	That's beautiful, Bigfatts. I've been looking for an original B Sporter like that for a long time. Got close a couple of times, but I have never actually scored one. I'm jealous! __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

July 25, 2018, 07:52 PM	#19
Bigfatts Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2005 Location: Lutz Posts: 1,528	Thanks, Scorch. I feel lucky to have happened across it. Prices on them seem steep, but I don't think the shop knew anything about it- not that I did at the time. This one and the one with the busted recoil lug I posted about in the Smithy came from the same owner. Someone's father passed and his guns got pawned. I don't know who he was, but the man had fine taste in rifles. There may be a couple more yet to hit the shelf, I will definitely be checking back.

July 26, 2018, 05:36 PM	#20
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	You might seriously consider a chamber cast before you you shoot it. According to my copy of Mauser Rifles and pistols, the type B was chambered in the following cartridges. 7x57MM, 8x60MM, 9.3x62MM and 10.75x68MM Shooting a cartridge 3MM too short would be a serious headspace problem. The book also stated a .315" bore so slugging the barrel might not be a bad idea. The 8x60 was Germany's way of getting around the ban on them making rifles and ammo in 8x57 after the end of World War one. As your pictures show what looks like the original barrel, I'm thinking it's an 8x60, not 8x57. IIRC, all they did was lengthen the case to get past the ban and chamber accordingly. The 30-06 case is 62 or 63MM so you should be able make 8x60 brass for that rifle should it be necessary. Brass for the .270 and .280 are IIRC about one millimeter longer so those should work as well. Might be easier than chasing down brass from Europe like Norma, Lapua or RWS. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

July 26, 2018, 09:23 PM	#21
Bigfatts Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2005 Location: Lutz Posts: 1,528	From what I can tell, all the markings on the rifle add up to 8x57J, particularly the "8,0 N" markings that designate the 8x57J. I know rifles could be ordered in non standard calibers, so it's possible to have them in other calibers. I also found reference to another B with a 79xxx serial that was dated to 1914, so that would put it before the 8x60. Those chambered for 8x60 seem to be clearly marked as well. I'm going to take it to a smith to deal with that butt pad, so I'll see if he can cast it too. Last edited by Bigfatts; July 26, 2018 at 09:40 PM.

August 13, 2018, 07:09 AM	#22
J.G. Terry Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2014 Posts: 577	The bolt handle has been lowered and the bolt has been engine turned. The low bolt handle suggest plans for mounting a scope with US made base. I'd also suggest doing a chamber cast. What it was does not guarantee what it is now. It was not unusual to have bring backs rechambered to 8mm-06. Might held to slug the bore. Was not Waffenfabric Mauser a pre-WWI marking? What's the chance of part of the marks being scrubbed? __________________ Intentionally Antagonizing Another MemberInsults and Ad Hominems

August 19, 2018, 11:19 AM	#23
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Too bad there are no case formers involved. It is not that I struggled but forming cases was difficult until I got up to 16 forming dies, The best forming dies I have are for chambers I do not have. And then there is the 308 W forming die, that one is a money saver because it is short. My second most favorite forming die is the 243 W forming die. Casting a chamber: Because my methods and or techniques are so different from the internet method which is; "you need to case your chamber" I will avoid angering members. F. Guffey

August 19, 2018, 02:08 PM	#24
J.G. Terry Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2014 Posts: 577	That case method is a good way to get your butt blown into the bushes. Enjoy the ride. __________________ Intentionally Antagonizing Another MemberInsults and Ad Hominems