Author—Gun Mistakes

[DaleA]

One of my favorite authors is John Sandford (aka John Camp). He writes police procedurals and generally gets gun stuff correct (IIRC he had the police beat when he worked for the St. Paul newspaper and was in the Army (airborne (I think) and a stint in South Korea). He’s written over 50 novels and once in a while a makes a mistake. Here’s his explanation of how that happens. (It's an 'afterward' included at the end of his book Ocean Prey.)

My brother-in-law Dan called me up and told me that in Golden Prey, I’d referred to a 40mm pistol. Should have been .40 caliber. Calibers are hundredths of an inch, millimeters are …millimeters. A 40mm pistol would shoot a bullet about an inch and a half across. There is a 40mm round---it’s fired from a grenade launcher, not the kind of weapon that Lucas Davenport would have tucked under his sports coat.

How do these mistakes happen? It’s not usually ignorance. They arise out of all kinds of things…haste, changes in story, weariness, boredom, juggling too many nouns at once. In another Prey novel, I had a man click off the safety on his Glock 9mm pistol, stolen from a Minneapolis detective, before he entered a house. The 9mm was fine, except Glocks don’t have safeties.

I’d originally written that the man had been carrying a Beretta, which do have safeties. Then, I made the mistake of talking to a Minneapolis detective who told me there’d been a change of policy, and they were no longer allowed to have personal carry pistols. They were required to use issue pistols, which were all Glocks. So, trying to be accurate, I changed “Beretta” to “Glock”-this was after the novel was essentially finished-and forgot that several lines above that, he’d clicked off the safety.

In Winter Prey, on the first page, I have a snowmobiling villain following a compass course of 375 degrees through a blizzard. That’s tough since compasses only have 360 degrees. It was supposed to be 275 degrees, or west, but instead, he’s going northeast. I don’t know how that mistake occurred, but it should have been caught by somebody, at some point. I suspect it was a pure typo.

The thing is, I know about guns and have been shooting since I was in elementary school. I know the difference between millimeters and calibers. I know Glocks don’t have safeties. I know how many degrees there are on a compass.

Holding a hundred thousand words in your head, through numerous edits and rewrites, is a complicated business, and by the time you get to the end, you can barely stand to read through them again. When you’re dealing with numbers, especially they can jump up and bite you in the ass.

I would highly recommend any of his books but would start with his 1989 book Rules of Prey.

[ernie8]

I always wondered how the " smell of cordite " was in all the non British , post WWII gunfights ?

[HiBC]

Usually I just let it slide.

We live in a world where I can go into an auto parts store,give the year,make,model,etc and say "I'd like to buy a set of spark plugs" and the parts counter guy will ask "Is that the diesel?"

I guess competency has gone over to the 8 year old kid with an i-pad. They can roll their eyes about the boomer stuck just this side of rotary phones with cords.

We're all dumb about something. If its a good book, I'd let it be a good book.

[jcj54]

"Don't louse up a good story with the truth."

[Jim Watson]

I read the Davenport and that effin' Virgil Flowers regularly and am now seeing Letty's adventures.
I get the impression that ol' Lucas is not entirely comfortable with Us American Commoners having too many guns. Is that the character or the author?


Stuart Woods got really huffy about it. His standard afterword was
Don't write to tell us about a mistake you find in a book, we already know about it... Gun Nuts are the worst.

His lead character, Stone Barrington, carried an OACP apparently in Condition 3.

Even the physics can trip you up, a SF heroine's purse gun was a railgun with about the muzzle energy of a .338 Win Mag. That would put a run in her stockings.

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Even the physics can trip you up, a SF heroine's purse gun was a railgun with about the muzzle energy of a .338 Win Mag. That would put a run in her stockings.

If you have the technology to make a railgun that small then assume the technology for a counter-movement weight or pulse to counteract the recoil and make it effectively recoilless.

[Jim Watson]

True. But it doesn't have to be a railgun, you can readily arm somebody with a slug thrower that is tough to manage. The lightweight .44 Magnum comes to mind.

[HiBC]

A Webley 455 for the stalwart!

[jmr40]

And to make things even more complicated with naval guns caliber refers to the length of the barrel. A battleship with a 16", 50 caliber gun means the barrel length is 50 times the caliber. So 16"X50=800" long barrel. Or 66.67 feet.

Mistakes are made in most every book, TV show and movie. And not just about guns. Often period correct clothes, cars, guns, etc. just can't be located. They know most people will never note the mistake.

[DaveBj]

Ha-ha. I've seen supposed WWII experts screw this up, putting a decimal point before the caliber of a ship's gun in an article about naval activity.

D

[Jim Watson]

If they are wrong on guns or something else I know, how bad are they missing the stuff I am not familiar with?

[44 AMP]

.455 Webley is actually pretty mellow to me.

[JohnKSa]

Sandford usually isn't too bad. James Patterson, on the other hand, seems to intentionally make gun mistakes--almost as if he considers it a badge of honor that he doesn't know a thing about guns.

[44 AMP]

Often period correct clothes, cars, guns, etc. just can't be located. They know most people will never note the mistake.

This was a very common thing in the movie industry, until fairly recently. And. while it still happens often, its a much less common thing than it used to be.

In the old days, movies were marvels, actual moving pictures!! Then they got sound!! And, eventually color!! but all the while and up until the proliferation of the VCR and the creation of the home video market, movies were always a temporary, transient thing.

We went to theaters, paid, saw the movie, and then it was done. Over. Gone. and existed only in our memories, unless/until we paid for another showing.

With print, mistakes are permanent. IN movies, not so much, back then. IF there was an actual period mistake (anachronism) it was often just a flash and gone, or at most, ended when the movie did.

Today we have 3 things that have changed (for the most part) and that is the fact that people today OWN movies, watch them at home and can study them and find mistakes, pause the frame, and really see what's right and what's wrong, and if you do something obvious and historically wrong, there are today a few million people being told about it on the internet. Some directors/producers have finally realized that avoidable errors are being to be spotted and broadcast to the entire world as criticism of their product, and that's not good for their business.

With the CGI technology possible today, things like the wrong plane, tank, or ship for the period simply don't need to happen.

Now, if only we could get them to stop the stupid crap in the scripts....

Fantasy settings are great, I do love them, and the director can do what ever they want, I'm good with that. Historical settings are different.

I have come to recognize 3 different classes. Actual true events, portrayed as accurately as possible, and we call them documentaries .

Movies "based on a true story" where they do get the true stuff right (or try to) but add in or change things. "Docu-dramas" are a fair name for those.

and then there are those that are "inspired by real events" where they get major place names correct and some of the characters have the names of the real historical people, but ALL the rest is entirely the fantasy of the studio.

[Jim Watson]

I seldom watch movies or series tv except as a social function.
The thing that I find even more annoying than anachronisms is the audience.

Seems like a major part of cinema these days is identifying the actors and recalling previous roles. I think it ought to be the other way around, a good actor will show you the character, not himself. Unless, of course, you are John Wayne.

[44 AMP]

a good actor will show you the character, not himself. Unless, of course, you are John Wayne.

There are several "big names" in the entertainment industry that are essentially one character players. Every role they play is basically "them", infused with their mannerisms and speech patterns. They play it well, because it is really only them.

Doesn't matter much if they're a pirate, a scientist, a hit man, the leader of some strange society on another planet, the trappings differ but its always the same basic character because that's what the actor is, and does.

I've also read different series from the same author where the setting is different, the names change but some of the same characters seem to show up simply because they are "stock" types.

Some writers take pains to try and get historical accuracy, some simply don't give a rip. And I don't mean just typos like .40mm (which can happen to anybody, but actual gaffs. One series I read was set in WWII, and the author was spot on with all his details armor, aircraft, equipment, really well done, until he put one of his characters in the belly turret of an RAF Lancaster bomber.

On the other hand, he was smart enough not to tell me how the .32acp "hits like a brick through a plate glass window"....

[HiBC]

I think "Saving Private Ryan" was a great movie.
I'd be in favor of having it be a graduation requirement for high school students.

No,its not 100% historically accurate. OK. But it does present a slice of what the "Greatest Generation " experienced.

I think it matters that our culture,our younger generations know what it was like for a sense of knowing who they are and where they come from.

Maybe they can absorb some of why many of us have a certain feeling toward the American Flag.
And yes,there are other movies. "Blackhawk Down" The story of Gordon and Shughart is one that should be part of our heritage. And "We were Soldiers"

Back to the OP and Saving Private Ryan.

The Sniper. Great character and inclusion. I appreciate it. One glaring technical inaccuracy/ poetic license . The diminutive Weaver 330 3/4 in tube 2.5 X scope is the historically correct scope. Mounting and zeroing it was not something that would be done in the field.
It appeared in the movie that the 8X Lyman long tube scope was easily swapped out for the Weaver,depending on the shot. Nope. There is no picatinny rail. Yes,that jumped out at me.

And then I shrugged and let it go. There WERE Marines in the Pacific using that scope or a similar Unertl and its all part of the WW2 story.

The long scope is a small compromise for the telling of the story.

FWIW, IMO, Movies like "Easy Rider" and "Forrest Gump" are worthwhile for understanding a time in Amercana . There is no expectation of historical accuracy. Today's high school student might get a slice of the times.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by HiBC

FWIW, IMO, Movies like "Easy Rider" and "Forrest Gump" are worthwhile for understanding a time in Amercana . There is no expectation of historical accuracy. Today's high school student might get a slice of the times.

It won't affect them in the slightest. Example:

Along with this site and a couple of other firearms- and 2A-related forums, I also belong to two forums for authors and would-be authors. On one of them recently a new-ish member asked a question about whether something was appropriate for the "peak" of the disco era. Having lived through it, I tried to be helpful by pointing out that he had the time window for the disco era off by about ten years.

His (or her) response? That even though he (or she) wasn't alive at that time, he/she had "studied the music extensively," and therefore I was wrong and he/she was right. This is the mentality we have to deal with today. "My mind is made up -- don't confuse me with facts."

[HiBC]

AB, I understand,

Many thick skulls are sealed shut....for now.

One day a Little Girl who lived with me said "I want to talk" I said "Ok,lets talk"

She asked me to be her Dad. We shook hands on it. Now I'm a Grandpa,twice.

Of course,we have been through some "Interesting times" . In the Foster-Cline School of Parenting, usually its best to give your best council, then let go. Let them live it and make choices.

Its amazing how many times my council ran into a locked thick skull of a youth that knew it all. Yet somehow it planted a seed. Over a course of time...weeks or months,that seed would sprout.

And over the dinner She and I customarily had on Tuesdays, my Daughter would tell me of a Wisdom she had discovered on her own, It was Her idea.
It would sound very familiar. Darn near a Deja Vu all over again.

I'd ponder the idea and give full credit to her for figuring it out. No "I told you so"

She is in her 40's now and living well.

Oh,along with Forrest Gump and Easy Rider,I forgot "American Graffiti"

These are entertaining movies, but you and I lived those times. There IS some value to be subliminally absorbed.

[44 AMP]

If you read the book "The Sum of All Fears" (Clancy) NOT THE MOVIE, you'll get an excellent recipe for how NOT to make an atomic bomb.

The author did his research, and as he states in the afterword, intentionally left out some of the information, just to ensure he would not be accused of "teaching terrorists" how to do it.

There are two basic kinds of errors in fiction involving firearms. One is simply a technical error in the description of something. The other, and far more common is having a character do something with a firearm that is not realistic.

And the action movie genre is, of course, even worse....

[Jim Watson]

In Uller Uprising, H. Beam Piper's Terrans got out of a tight spot by building a bomb from the blueprints on the end papers of a potboiler romance set in the pre-space Manhattan Project.

[44 AMP]

Fictional characters get to do what ever the author wants them to.
However, there are (lots) of times when things go beyond what my "suspension of belief in reality" allows for.

in one of the early Executioner books the hero makes a 600yd shot, from a boat on Lake Michigan, using a .460 Weatherby with a 20x scope, shooting the golf ball off the tee as the Mafia don begins his backswing, "riding out the recoil" so he never loses sight of his target in the scope....

Somewhat entertaining, (at first) but pure drivel....

[ghbucky]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Fictional characters get to do what ever the author wants them to.
However, there are (lots) of times when things go beyond what my "suspension of belief in reality" allows for.

in one of the early Executioner books the hero makes a 600yd shot, from a boat on Lake Michigan, using a .460 Weatherby with a 20x scope, shooting the golf ball off the tee as the Mafia don begins his backswing, "riding out the recoil" so he never loses sight of his target in the scope....

Somewhat entertaining, (at first) but pure drivel....

pffft, I can do that with a hangover and no coffee.

[44 AMP]

I'm sure you can be entertaining but pure drivel with a hangover and no coffee, too!!

[SIGSHR]

Ian Fleming received a letter from the noted UK gunwriter Geoffery Boothroyd pointing out Fleming's mistakes regarding James Bonds' firearms. in the next story "Major Boothroyd" had been appointed Bond's armorer.
One of the best loved Sherlock Holmes stories is Silver Blaze about a missing race horse. Readers pointed out-and Conan Doyle admitted-that his description of English horse racing was way off the mark.