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May 27, 2017, 09:16 PM | #26 | ||
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Ownership of property does not by itself establish residency. You could own a home, rent a home, rent a townhouse........if you cannot produce the required documentation then you have not satisfied the requirements of Federal law. Read Ruling 2010-6: Quote:
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May 29, 2017, 10:13 AM | #27 |
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How does that BATFE statement in any way make what I wrote incorrect? The issue of how you demonstrate the validity of your second place of residence is secondary. The fundamental rule is that you can have multiple places of residence and the BATFE's determination is that, for the purposes of transferring firearms, you are a "resident" of whichever home you are living in at the time of the transfer.
Granted, if you own a rental property in another state that doesn't qualify. The second (or third, or fourth) home must be a place where you live for parts of each year. |
May 29, 2017, 12:06 PM | #28 |
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It seems like "we have a failure to communicate."
The issue is we are dealing with two different levels of legislation. One is state, the other is federal and to make it even more obtuse the federal component involves ATF - gun control. (yes ATF is gun control no matter what the liberals say.) For state purposes and voting you must have certain documentation like vehicle registration, voter registration, local utilities, etc. There is no federal counterpart to these. these are issued by the states. The federal gun laws are totally separate and that is why the items mentioned below aren't used to establish residence. Federal law depends on different criteria to establish residence. Criteria that are more vague than state definitions of residence. In case you are wondering why the state requirements are more strict try living in NY, CT, NJ, etc and say your residence is elsewhere. People try this to avoid paying their ridiculous taxes all the time they close the loopholes so they can take advantage of the people that live there. that's why I choose not to live in places like that. Having said all of that, I have been denied purchase in a state where I was a residence using the federal restriction but the local dealer refused to file the form for permission for me to execute my 2A rights. It was cheaper to buy elsewhere than hire a lawyer to convenience the otherwise. Last edited by Minorcan; May 29, 2017 at 07:06 PM. |
May 29, 2017, 12:23 PM | #29 | |
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The ATF accepts only government issued proof of residency (as I understand it)
Quote:
It is, apparently, possible to have multiple residences in different states. It appears that just living in a state temporarily for a job assignment does not qualify unless you are in the armed forces. (which is addressed elsewhere) |
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May 29, 2017, 12:57 PM | #30 | |
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If they have a job, there will be a pay stub showing an address as another possibility
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"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
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May 29, 2017, 01:21 PM | #31 | ||
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Even if you're on a temporary work assignment, if you're doing the things that one would be expected to do when they're living somewhere (renting an apartment, traveling daily to a regular work assignment, sleeping there regularly, paying utility bills, etc.), it would be pretty hard to convince someone that you're not "making a home" there. And remember, if you're making a home in a state, then you're a resident of that state for the purposes of buying a firearm under federal law.
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0331: "Accuracy by volume." |
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May 29, 2017, 03:55 PM | #32 |
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FITASC,
Neither a copy of a lease nor a check stub is a government document. That seems to be a clear requirement. Theohazard, Can you actually define a 9 month stay while being employed from out of state as an attempt to "make a home there"? Making a home requires some kind of investment, living on property you own, or looking for property to buy, maybe? Does he have any intention to spend time in that state after the job he is doing is over? Will he spend a few months at his second home every year? It seems one must show an intent to make it a "home" in order to be a resident. Will he pay the state income tax? No because he is an out of state employee. If he was a resident he would be liable for the state taxes. |
May 29, 2017, 04:15 PM | #33 | |
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"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
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May 29, 2017, 07:11 PM | #34 | |
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May 29, 2017, 07:21 PM | #35 | |
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Again, "ownership" of your residence is NOT required and has absolutely nothing to do with residency.
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May 29, 2017, 07:27 PM | #36 | ||||
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My electric bill is from a business, but my water/sewer/garbage bill is from my city. Quote:
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May 29, 2017, 07:30 PM | #37 | |
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Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
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May 29, 2017, 11:44 PM | #38 | |||
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If you're living somewhere, even for a short period of time, then that's your residence. If you're visiting somewhere on a vacation, then that's not your residence.
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0331: "Accuracy by volume." Last edited by Theohazard; May 29, 2017 at 11:51 PM. |
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May 29, 2017, 11:49 PM | #39 | ||
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0331: "Accuracy by volume." Last edited by Theohazard; May 30, 2017 at 12:05 AM. |
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May 30, 2017, 10:14 AM | #40 | ||
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In order for someone who lives in an RV to claim a particular state as their "state of residence", (just like the homeless person above) they need to provide the same documentation as someone living in a home or apartment. This means a physical address. ATF regulations clearly do not permit the use of a P.O Box or other mailing address. The address you claim as your current residence address must actually be the address where you reside. For someone who is travelling the country constantly it may well be impossible to truthfully claim a "current address and state of residence" on Question 2 of the Form 4473.
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May 30, 2017, 11:47 AM | #41 | |
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Mr. and Mrs. Smith live 8 months in Michigan and then bring their RV to Florida for the winter where they put it in a RV park. All of their IDs are Michigan, including the tag and registration of the RV. For four months they are residents of FL, living in the RV, so how would they go about (or better I guess what documents would they need) to go buy a handgun in FL?
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May 31, 2017, 03:57 AM | #42 | |
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They wouldn't just need to use their FL address to buy a handgun, they'd also need to use their FL address to buy a long gun. Yes, an out-of-state resident can buy a long gun, but they're not out-of-state residents, they're actually living in FL. So if they put their MI address on the 4473 while they're living in FL, that would be a felony because they're lying about their residence on the 4473.
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0331: "Accuracy by volume." Last edited by Theohazard; May 31, 2017 at 04:07 AM. |
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May 31, 2017, 11:55 AM | #43 |
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So what kind of government-issued ID can an RVer get when parked at a rented/leased space in an RV campground that's owned by someone else? It's not like they're going to get a tax bill, or even a utility bill.
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May 31, 2017, 03:43 PM | #44 | |
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This could be a hunting/fishing license, letter from the city, state, or Federal governments, even a traffic ticket.
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May 31, 2017, 07:20 PM | #45 |
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The definition of residency as listed in 27 CFR 478.11 as required in 2010-6 ATF ruling:
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition: Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip. Since the question is whether or not the person is a resident and the definition used in the document excludes his visitation as "residency" he cannot purchase a gun out of state. |
May 31, 2017, 09:24 PM | #46 | |
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And your example in no way, shape or form comes anywhere close to the OP's situation. OP isn't on a "trip" or visit..........HE'S LIVING THERE. All he has to do is get a government issued document that shows his name and current address in GA. (and the example of the RV'ers is the same)
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Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE Last edited by dogtown tom; May 31, 2017 at 09:31 PM. |
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May 31, 2017, 09:43 PM | #47 |
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I'm sorry Tom, as I see it there is no intent to make a home, he is there on a business trip only and intends to return to his home after the business is completed. Of course he is living there, but he is NOT making a home there. He has no intention of making a home there. It is a business trip, albeit a prolonged business trip it remains a business trip. There is no intent to make a residence.
You are free to believe what you like. |
May 31, 2017, 10:05 PM | #48 | |
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We've explained this multiple times with several direct references to federal law and ATF rulings. I already pointed out that you're completely misinterpreting what the term "making a home" means. Every time a thread about residency comes up, there's always someone who overthinks it. But it's super simple: Residency when transferring firearms is simply about where you're living at that moment.
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0331: "Accuracy by volume." Last edited by Theohazard; May 31, 2017 at 10:15 PM. |
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May 31, 2017, 10:21 PM | #49 | ||
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Laughably wrong fella. And here's why (my comments in RED) Quote:
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June 1, 2017, 06:38 AM | #50 |
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So, Dogtown Tom, what you're really saying seems to be that, although the BATFE officially recognizes that a person may have multiple states of residence (at non-overlapping periods of time), the BATFE also effectively makes it impossible to purchase firearms (at least from in FFL) in more than one of the states. The directives you cite all point to an FFL needing to see photo ID, which means that such things as tax bills from a state in which someone owns a vacation home will not suffice. But just how does someone obtain photo ID in a second state?
As far as I know, no state will issue a driver's license to someone who maintains a driver's license and residence in another state. Car registrations, if one wanted to register a spare vehicle in the vacation home state, don't include a photo. Perhaps a carry permit would work, IF the second state issues permits, but ... will state B issue a permit using the address in their state if the applicant has a permit and driver's license from state A? At one time I briefly thought that a passport or passport card might help ... until I remembered that a passport doesn't provide a current residence address. So the BATFE recognizes in theory that a person may have more than one state of residence, but then they establish other rules that make it essentially impossible to proceed under that theory. Does that about sum it up? |
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