|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
March 13, 2015, 10:21 AM | #51 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,876
|
Quote:
Legal: Is being Lawful. So what's your point? |
|
March 13, 2015, 10:26 AM | #52 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 9, 2010
Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent
Posts: 2,483
|
OP
Quote:
Edit: actually, that's just wrong in pretty much EVERY conceivable way.
__________________
I'm right about the metric system 3/4 of the time. |
|
March 13, 2015, 10:43 AM | #53 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,342
|
Quote:
IMHO, most laws have everything to do with a Government dictating ethics to us. Speed limits, age of consent, laws against theft of property, etc, etc. Many game laws such as season dates and weapons legal to use are based on what that agency has determined to be ethical. This is why some states allow the use of bait/dogs for deer and some don't. Same reason many states have minimum calibers while some don't, Matter of locally imposed ethics, and enforced by laws. |
|
March 13, 2015, 12:57 PM | #54 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
|
Quote:
Quote:
My point is that both these statements seem to imply that if it is legal, it must be ethical, and that hunting methods and activities are always ethical provided there are no specific laws prohibiting it. That a 1000 yard shot at an elk with a .308 is ethical based on whether or not a state issues citations for wounded or unrecovered animals, and not on the probability of whether or not it will result in a clean kill. I'm not arguing whther the shot is ethical or not, and for whom it would be ethical. I'm arguing against letting the law be the standard. I'm sorry if I am not interpretting your statements as you intended them to mean. |
||
March 13, 2015, 02:19 PM | #55 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
|
Quote:
I built a Vietnam era Model 70 sniper rifle, I did shoot it in a 1000 yard match, it did good but I rather use my AMU Built 308 M-70. I do have a Pre 64 Model 70 in 06 I use once in a while for hunting, just because. Most of my hunting is either with my M70 Feather weights (257 for deer and antelope and 270 Win Elk. I'm not a 1000 yard hunter.
__________________
Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071 |
|
March 13, 2015, 02:25 PM | #56 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
can we just bury this thread and get it over with? once ethics enters the fray there is no way to redeem a thread.
here are some facts about ethics. 1. every person's ideas of ethics is a little different. 2. law does not necessarily reflect ethics. speed limits, texting while driving, jaywalking, taxation, and stay off the grass laws have no bearing whatsoever on ethics, yet they are still laws. 3. ethics are formed by a combination of environmental stimuli. I personally would not hunt deer over a feeder because it violates my own personal ethics, yet that's par for the course in many southern states. I personally would not hunt deer with 22LR, yet it's legal and quite often done in some states. I don't decry anyone for using those methods, I simply abstain from using them myself. in many states, it's almost unheard of to have to shoot beyond 100 yards, and I've been called unethical for making 350 yard shots yet where I grew up, it was not only unheard of but expected to make shots as far as 500 yards. so please. stop imposing your ethics on other members.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
March 13, 2015, 02:58 PM | #57 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Posts: 3,084
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrQqPdRgw_w
Here is a video of a hunter taking an elk at 875 yards with a .308. He seems to be a great shooter who knows himself and his rifle very well. It is an impressive shot. However, I can't help but notice the time between the shot going off and impacting the animal. Seems like it's a dice roll at that point. What if something spooks the animal, or it turns its head to scratch an itch? Maybe it sees something good and walks over to eat it. That could turn your neck shot into a high shoulder or leg shot, even if you had a perfectly placed shot to begin with.
__________________
Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com. |
March 13, 2015, 03:42 PM | #58 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
I first heard of such desires back in the 1950's. Some things never change.
Someone needs to take this errant, but well intentioned, hunter aside and get real with him in a manner he understands. |
March 13, 2015, 03:52 PM | #59 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 17, 2007
Location: Cowtown of course!
Posts: 1,747
|
I concur.
__________________
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......” President John F. Kennedy |
March 13, 2015, 05:18 PM | #60 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,787
|
This is probably going to come as a shock--but there are plenty of "hunters" out there who don't mind taking risky shots, I've even heard "coyotes gotta eat too."
I remember on some forum a guy claimed he could take a deer at some longish range. To prove his point he had a spotter go with him and he had the guy film it. Sure enough he dropped the deer and the video showed him proudly displaying his shooting prowess. As I recall, the hunt club threw him out of the club and banned him from hunting there. Not necessarily because he wasn't a very good long range shooter--but because at that long of a range he had a minimal target and virtually no knowledge of what else might be in the back or edge of a limited field of vision. |
March 13, 2015, 05:41 PM | #61 |
Member
Join Date: February 14, 2015
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 42
|
One thing is for sure. This guy is a lot better shooter than he is hunter. A good bow hunter can put his deer stand where 20 yards is considered a long shot.
|
March 13, 2015, 06:28 PM | #62 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,808
|
Quote:
Not something I'd do, my personal skills aren't nearly that good, but with an aerodynamic 200 gr bullet a 308 has more energy at 1000 yards than a 44 mag from a revolver has at the muzzle. It is probably not as unrealistic as it seems at first glance. |
|
March 13, 2015, 07:16 PM | #63 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 22, 2014
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,549
|
That is a good video dacota pots and you can even see that his shot is a through and through but it was a yearling elk which means that it was small not much larger the a good size deer.
|
March 13, 2015, 07:16 PM | #64 |
Staff in Memoriam
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA
Posts: 24,798
|
I don't care how skilled you are, nor how much high-tech gear you have. All it takes at 1,000 yards is a little puff of invisible wind to turn a kill-shot into a crippling shot.
And that's why many of us think, "Unethical." Knowingly taking a shot that all too easily could become a crippling hit. It's why many hunters in Colorado became contemptuous of Texas hunters is the early years of the 7mm Rem Mag. Too many crippled elk. |
March 13, 2015, 07:45 PM | #65 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
Quote:
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
|
March 13, 2015, 09:18 PM | #66 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 710
|
At 1K yds, assuming flat ground what is the angel of approach (approx.) for the projectile to the target?
|
March 13, 2015, 09:40 PM | #67 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,577
|
I don't hunt anymore so maybe I am out of date here. But going from hunting to bench shooting as I have done I can say this. As a deer hunter I was pretty much limited to 300 to 400 yard shots where we went, that was considered a great shot. Now shooting long range ( and a rookie at that). I see that 300 to 400 yards is very easy. I don't know how big the kill zone is on a big elk,but I do shoot with some guys that could hit the kill zone 10 out of 10 times at 1000 yards. And yes that includes shooting in the wind as that is what we do. Matches are not called because of wind and still they hit the bullseye. So the question of it being ethical would boil down to how good you are. There are some people that ( using what your calling ethical ) should not be shooting deer at 100 yards.
So the question really is- Are you calling it un ethical because it is beyond your realm of precision or shooting ability?. Is it un ethical for a few deer hunters I see every year at the range that can't hold a 5 inch group at 50 yards to shoot a deer at 100 or more yards. My concern is a 308 at 1000 yards. Myself- I would never do a 1000 yard shot,but that is because it is beyond my ability right now. Case in point- When I was deer hunting,holding 3 inch or 4 inch groups at 300 yards was good to go. Now shooting F Class I find that 3 to 4 inch groups is horrible.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional Last edited by 4runnerman; March 13, 2015 at 09:45 PM. |
March 13, 2015, 10:54 PM | #68 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: Jefferson State
Posts: 1,197
|
Quote:
__________________
"We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher |
|
March 14, 2015, 01:30 AM | #69 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,286
|
OK,first,he was talking semi-auto .308.
I know when the pressures get a little hot,an ArmaliteAR-10 leaves the brass in the chamber.Is our hero single loading his semi-auto 1000 yd Elk gun? Or are we going to be realistic about 2.8 COAL and these deep seated 200 gr 308 wonder loads? As I understand it,keeping a 308 supersonic at 1000 is challenging,and may involve longer barrels and hot loads better suited to a bolt gun. Now,call your bullet MFGR and ask the minimum velocity for the bullet to expand and perform.Its usually just under 2000 fps.So tell me what is the MV you get with a 200 gr bullet from an AR-10? OK,so,benched and bagged or with a bipod your AR ,golly,its a good one!!It does .400 MOA groups at 100 yds.But,no,wait.That does not count. If you shoot 1 shot,cold bore.Then come back tomorrow,and shoot 1 shot,cold bore..do this ten times,AND,I want to know how far each was from perfect center of the target. One shot,you are going for an elks kill zone.Not his liver or guts or leg.Thats generally regarded as a 10 inch target. Fair chase means you are not using a vehicle.You are on your feet with no bench or sandbags.You want a bipod,OK. I won't say no one can do it.Darn few keyboard commandos can shoot 1 MOA under hunting field conditions at 1000 yds. Or make a1st round hit on a 10 in target.,not just sometimes.Near every time. For the shooter,the "risk" is only ego.For the elk,it is prolonged agony. IMO,its a stunt involving a distinct lack of respect for the animal. Oh,and,yeah,I do understand.I have a Kestrel and a Leica and a ballistic calculator and a chronograph .I even have a decent long range rifle. No,not shooting 1000 yds on a game animal. |
March 14, 2015, 08:26 AM | #70 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,577
|
OK,so,benched and bagged or with a bipod your AR ,golly,its a good one!!It does .400 MOA groups at 100 yds.But,no,wait.That does not count.
If you shoot 1 shot,cold bore.Then come back tomorrow,and shoot 1 shot,cold bore..do this ten times,AND,I want to know how far each was from perfect center of the target. HiBC- yes I can do this and cold bore shot is always very very close everytime. I do not have a large margin of error. With my 223 it is within 1/2 inch always. As I have stated-I would never try a shot like this on a animal. To look at it another way- I don't know a one sniper that tells his target to wait while he warms up his rifle with a few shots before he shoots them. When I shoot 1000 yard matches,we get unlimited sighters. This is not to warm up the barrel before shooting. It is to get on target only. Most , me included only need about 2 or 3 shots to do it. And first cold bore shot is with in 10 inches very easy. If you have a good rifle and a good scope it is not a Hail Mary shot. I can take my BR from 100 yards dial out to 1000 yards and first shot will be within 10 inches always. Which brings me back to-- Me I would never do it, But don't judge other peoples shooting skills based on how good you are. I thought I was a crack shot till I started shooting comp. Reality sucks and it hurts the ego sometimes to. I can attest to that with my personnel experience. Very belittling to say the least. One of the matches last year, Only 600 yards at that one, But we had 2 people that showed up with ( to me any how) looked like rifles that were built before man was created, open sights and the 2 people shooting them looked to be as old. Those 2 gentleman were on the bullseye right off the bat. I would sit and could not help but wonder-With a new rifle and a good scope- what could they do?. Probably put all of us to shame. Same day same match- I had a 11 year old dust my rear end in that match. My point is-No matter how good you think you are, believe me- There is someone out there that will put you in your place fast. Could be a 11 year old or a guy (2 of them) that need a cane and a walker to stand up.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional Last edited by 4runnerman; March 14, 2015 at 09:00 AM. |
March 14, 2015, 09:11 AM | #71 |
Staff in Memoriam
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA
Posts: 24,798
|
"And first cold bore shot is with in 10 inches very easy."
Yup. No doubt. Probably a fair number of people can do that very thing. Trouble is, that could be five inches behind the heart, in the stomach. Or grazing across the front of the chest, making nice smelly blood for the wolves. Hunting has a shortage of Mulligans. |
March 14, 2015, 11:45 AM | #72 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,342
|
Quote:
|
|
March 14, 2015, 12:36 PM | #73 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
|
Quote:
Military snipers often are happy just to wound the target Quote:
If it were so easy, they wouldn't let you take "unlimited sighters"
__________________
One shot, one kill |
||
March 14, 2015, 01:00 PM | #74 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,577
|
Art- That is very true, But that is me. I am a rookie. Some of the guys I shoot against are not rookies. Again let me state- I do NOT condone shooting a animal at 1000 yards. I am simply saying there are those that can do it very well.
Snyper- A snipers job is to take the target out ( DEAD) not wound. Not sure where you get your info from. A wound is only if called for, but there main job is to kill the target. At 1000 yards if you shoot at a moving target , that is not wise. Bullet flight time is? what 1 second?. Standing targets dont move far in one second. The 10 inches is Me. As posted above. I am a rookie and Don't claim to be anything more. My point as I will state again- Don't judge un ethical based on your shooting talent. That means squat to many. I seem to be under the gun here for saying this. My stance is- I would NOT as I have said 3 or 4 times already. But I do know people that could do this. I am just mearly saying that lots of people here are jumping the gun and saying trash about this guy in question with out even knowing anything about his talent or expirence. Because none of us would or could do it, That means no one else can either. Sad mantality I think. This started out as a question and went to trash the shooter right away. I am simply saying if he is that good, then more power to him. My main concern from the beggening was a 308 for the job.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional |
March 14, 2015, 01:07 PM | #75 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,286
|
4runner.Ijust read your post,then I went back and read mine.
I think maybe you were responding to your own thoughts,not mine. I'm really pretty humble about my ability to shoot.(With justification!) So,no,I do not take the egocentric view that because I can't,no one else can.I know better. I also recognize some amazing things are done by top shooters.There was a paper plate posted at Cache la Poudre Rifleworks with 5 holes in it,fired at 1000 yds,witnessed.It was done with a 45-70 Shilo Sharps and iron sights You mention sighters. A few sighters to get on.I have fired groups less than 10 in at 1090 yds upon occasion after a few sighters.Even my mediocre me can do that.Actually,the rifle did it more than I did. When an elk hunter takes "sighters" its a leg shot(low,left),then a gut shot(elevation good,10 but you were a foot right) oh,gosh,hes flopping around.... I still do not,and did not, say no one can do it. But I stand by my statement.Keyboard commando is easy. The person who can sight in at the range,probably on a bench,with wind,mirage,altitude,temperature,etc at the range,travel to a different altitude and conditions,walk around,up and down,find an improvised shooting position on the ground,and get a first round hit within a 5 inch radius of point of aim at 1000 yds is uncommon.That is what I said,and,IMO,there is nothing to argue about. I don't know you or your shooting.If you want to claim you can,OK. Last edited by HiBC; March 14, 2015 at 01:52 PM. |
Tags |
.308 , elk , long-range |
|
|