Why Shotguns ?? - Page 2

Solitar · September 11, 2000, 06:36 PM

Each pellet of unbuffered cheap 00 buck from Sellier & Bellot easily punches through at least one layer of a steel drum and likely will through sheetrock wall. Premium Remington 000 buck blew a large fist size hole through both sides of that same drum from 5 yards.

See previous threads on this topic http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/...ML/000572.html
"The slugs and buckshot were fired from about 30 feet outside a 1x 6 solid pine fence toward a typical frame house. Both easily penetrated (1) the fence; (2) the front wall of the house (vinyl siding, 1/2 plywood, interior drywall); (3) two interior walls (two drywalls each on 2/4 studs); (4) the rear exterior wall (same as front); and finally (5) the simulated homeowner standing in the back yard. "

http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/...ML/000496.html

[This message has been edited by Solitar (edited September 11, 2000).]

Dead · September 11, 2000, 08:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave McC:
Guys, a coupla things.........

.....with a .223, 7.62X39, etc, you could be on the stage at a Greatful Dead concert and not hear squat.......[/quote]

I can tell you from first hand experience that shootings a 7.62x39 in an enclosed room, without hearing protection, will NOT make you permently deaf! Sure your ears will ring for alittle while but, nothing to bad.

Anyways in that type of event were you NEED to fire, you will be lucky if you HEAR the shot you fired! Being in a life threating senario makes your body, and mind react in weird ways!

And as for "Why a Shotgun?" All I can say is why not?

------------------
Dead [Black Ops]

[This message has been edited by Dead (edited September 11, 2000).]

Oleg Volk · September 11, 2000, 08:19 PM

I am getting to like my shotgun because, through much trap shooting, I am getting rather effective at aiming it faster than I can aim any rifle. Of course, at in-house ranges, pointing is better and the rifle training (steady, sqeeze) works against the user. OTOH, I am unimpressed by the terminal performance of #2 buck 20ga and not sure that a 3" shell would do much better.

BillX · September 11, 2000, 08:47 PM

Thank you gentlemen for all your info and opinions. I won't run out and buy a combat shotgun but I do have an old Stevens dbl barrel, I will load up with some number 5 pheasant loads for the wife's side of the bed. I will keep my M14s on my side. You have about halfway swayed me.

------------------
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken

crow slayer · September 11, 2000, 09:36 PM

First off I can't be 100% sure on my 15 yard theory, I have never been shot and I don't exactly plan on it. In my experience at 15 yards a 12 gauge with shot will leave a god awful mess. I have a friend with a SxS 10 gauge with double triggers, at close range I would think that it could near tear some one in half. Think of that 5 oz of shot delivered in a 8" patern to the stoma. Sick.
Back to the .308 vs. 12 debate if the .308 was loaded with anything but FMJs I wouldn't want to even think about it.
How about a AR loaded with Balistic TIpS?
I pray none of us will ever have to put our theorys to the test
CS

Cosmoline · September 11, 2000, 09:45 PM

Re. the legal implications of firepower. I'm an attorney, and I defend individuals and small companies in civil actions for a living. While it's true the survivors of the criminal who broke into your house *can* sue you, in most jurisdictions they're gonna get less (sometimes much less) if said criminal is dead than if he is alive. Estates and survivors must sue through wrongful death and survival statutes. These vary from state to state, but are in general older and more restrictive than the wide-open, ever-expanding common law. If you only *wound* the bastard, he may end up owning your house to pay his medical bills, pain & suffering, loss of sex life etc. etc. As far as what to shoot the intruder with--more power is better. The more he suffers before he dies, the more you may have to pay in a survival statute claim. It's safe to say that there's no P&S for instant loss of brains (those he actually had) to a shotgun ;-)

Ledbetter · September 11, 2000, 10:17 PM

Ledbetter agrees with the lawyer from Alaska.

Frenchy · September 12, 2000, 09:24 PM

One other aspect of this discussion might be the "Intimidation Factor". Looking at it from the Perps point of view, The sound of a shell being chambered in a 12 ga. pump could rule everything else moot, as he exits your home, "stage right". If he's dumb enough to stick around, the sight of a 12 ga. bore pointing at him might decide the issue of a shot ever being fired!

------------------
Donnez-moi la liberté, ou donnez-moi la mort!

CMOS · September 13, 2000, 08:07 AM

Do you guys really wait to "chamber a round" until you actually approach the suspect?

No sir, not me. That shotgun is fully loaded when I pick it up. I am not going to even consider relying on the "shotgun audio warning"...

CMOS

------------------
NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!

The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.

Coronach · September 13, 2000, 09:09 AM

Our shotguns are carried at 'cruiser ready' which is: four in the tube, chamber empty, hammer down, safety off. In most situations we would have the gun out but not rack one in. For those situations where we would rack one in right away (barricade with shots fired, etc) most officers have one additional shotshell in their gear that they would grab to top off the gun.

This might not seem like the ideal solution, but remember...mounting a shotgun that is ready to rock and roll is really only a smidgen faster than racking it as you mount it, if that.

Mike

------------------
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

Frenchy · September 13, 2000, 10:53 AM

I understand your point CMOS, but if I can avoid a confrontation with a BG I will. As for the readiness of my weapon, I guarantee I can put my "slam Fire" Ithaca into action as fast as anyone!! Anyway, I have a really Big Dog that makes most of this irrelevant.

pete80 · September 14, 2000, 02:48 PM

I've *WITNESSED* Federal 00 9 pellet (Tactical Load) blow a fist sized hole in a 1 3/4" solid wood door, pass through exterior siding, right on by a wall with sheet rock and coming to rest behind a bathroom sink.

This was the result of a negligent discharge in my apartment complex. 5 out of 9 pellets passed through the first wall. These 5 pellets passed through another wall and came to rest behind a bathroom sink.

With any firearm, be very sure of your background.

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September 11, 2000, 06:36 PM	#26
Solitar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Solitary Posts: 717	Each pellet of unbuffered cheap 00 buck from Sellier & Bellot easily punches through at least one layer of a steel drum and likely will through sheetrock wall. Premium Remington 000 buck blew a large fist size hole through both sides of that same drum from 5 yards. See previous threads on this topic http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/...ML/000572.html "The slugs and buckshot were fired from about 30 feet outside a 1x 6 solid pine fence toward a typical frame house. Both easily penetrated (1) the fence; (2) the front wall of the house (vinyl siding, 1/2 plywood, interior drywall); (3) two interior walls (two drywalls each on 2/4 studs); (4) the rear exterior wall (same as front); and finally (5) the simulated homeowner standing in the back yard. " http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/...ML/000496.html [This message has been edited by Solitar (edited September 11, 2000).]

September 11, 2000, 08:12 PM	#27
Dead Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: AoW Land, USA Posts: 1,968	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave McC: Guys, a coupla things......... .....with a .223, 7.62X39, etc, you could be on the stage at a Greatful Dead concert and not hear squat.......[/quote] I can tell you from first hand experience that shootings a 7.62x39 in an enclosed room, without hearing protection, will NOT make you permently deaf! Sure your ears will ring for alittle while but, nothing to bad. Anyways in that type of event were you NEED to fire, you will be lucky if you HEAR the shot you fired! Being in a life threating senario makes your body, and mind react in weird ways! And as for "Why a Shotgun?" All I can say is why not? ------------------ Dead [Black Ops] [This message has been edited by Dead (edited September 11, 2000).]

September 11, 2000, 08:19 PM	#28
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	I am getting to like my shotgun because, through much trap shooting, I am getting rather effective at aiming it faster than I can aim any rifle. Of course, at in-house ranges, pointing is better and the rifle training (steady, sqeeze) works against the user. OTOH, I am unimpressed by the terminal performance of #2 buck 20ga and not sure that a 3" shell would do much better.

September 11, 2000, 08:47 PM	#29
BillX Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2000 Location: Boilermaker Country, Indiana Posts: 131	Thank you gentlemen for all your info and opinions. I won't run out and buy a combat shotgun but I do have an old Stevens dbl barrel, I will load up with some number 5 pheasant loads for the wife's side of the bed. I will keep my M14s on my side. You have about halfway swayed me. ------------------ "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken

September 11, 2000, 09:36 PM	#30
crow slayer Member Join Date: June 16, 2000 Location: Eddyville Iowa Usa Posts: 33	First off I can't be 100% sure on my 15 yard theory, I have never been shot and I don't exactly plan on it. In my experience at 15 yards a 12 gauge with shot will leave a god awful mess. I have a friend with a SxS 10 gauge with double triggers, at close range I would think that it could near tear some one in half. Think of that 5 oz of shot delivered in a 8" patern to the stoma. Sick. Back to the .308 vs. 12 debate if the .308 was loaded with anything but FMJs I wouldn't want to even think about it. How about a AR loaded with Balistic TIpS? I pray none of us will ever have to put our theorys to the test CS

September 11, 2000, 09:45 PM	#31
Cosmoline Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2000 Posts: 1,080	Re. the legal implications of firepower. I'm an attorney, and I defend individuals and small companies in civil actions for a living. While it's true the survivors of the criminal who broke into your house can sue you, in most jurisdictions they're gonna get less (sometimes much less) if said criminal is dead than if he is alive. Estates and survivors must sue through wrongful death and survival statutes. These vary from state to state, but are in general older and more restrictive than the wide-open, ever-expanding common law. If you only wound the bastard, he may end up owning your house to pay his medical bills, pain & suffering, loss of sex life etc. etc. As far as what to shoot the intruder with--more power is better. The more he suffers before he dies, the more you may have to pay in a survival statute claim. It's safe to say that there's no P&S for instant loss of brains (those he actually had) to a shotgun ;-)

September 11, 2000, 10:17 PM	#32
Ledbetter Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2000 Location: California USA Posts: 4,533	Ledbetter agrees with the lawyer from Alaska.

September 12, 2000, 09:24 PM	#33
Frenchy Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Mid-Missouri Posts: 719	One other aspect of this discussion might be the "Intimidation Factor". Looking at it from the Perps point of view, The sound of a shell being chambered in a 12 ga. pump could rule everything else moot, as he exits your home, "stage right". If he's dumb enough to stick around, the sight of a 12 ga. bore pointing at him might decide the issue of a shot ever being fired! ------------------ Donnez-moi la liberté, ou donnez-moi la mort!

September 13, 2000, 08:07 AM	#34
CMOS Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 1999 Location: TEXAS Posts: 1,417	Do you guys really wait to "chamber a round" until you actually approach the suspect? No sir, not me. That shotgun is fully loaded when I pick it up. I am not going to even consider relying on the "shotgun audio warning"... CMOS ------------------ NRA? Good. Now join the GOA! The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.

September 13, 2000, 09:09 AM	#35
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Our shotguns are carried at 'cruiser ready' which is: four in the tube, chamber empty, hammer down, safety off. In most situations we would have the gun out but not rack one in. For those situations where we would rack one in right away (barricade with shots fired, etc) most officers have one additional shotshell in their gear that they would grab to top off the gun. This might not seem like the ideal solution, but remember...mounting a shotgun that is ready to rock and roll is really only a smidgen faster than racking it as you mount it, if that. Mike ------------------ "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

September 13, 2000, 10:53 AM	#36
Frenchy Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Mid-Missouri Posts: 719	I understand your point CMOS, but if I can avoid a confrontation with a BG I will. As for the readiness of my weapon, I guarantee I can put my "slam Fire" Ithaca into action as fast as anyone!! Anyway, I have a really Big Dog that makes most of this irrelevant.

September 14, 2000, 02:48 PM	#37
pete80 Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 1999 Posts: 454	I've WITNESSED Federal 00 9 pellet (Tactical Load) blow a fist sized hole in a 1 3/4" solid wood door, pass through exterior siding, right on by a wall with sheet rock and coming to rest behind a bathroom sink. This was the result of a negligent discharge in my apartment complex. 5 out of 9 pellets passed through the first wall. These 5 pellets passed through another wall and came to rest behind a bathroom sink. With any firearm, be very sure of your background.