Gun registration-then-confiscation experiences - Page 2

**Aguila Blanca** · February 4, 2021, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

Now we are getting to something worth discussing! But probably beyond the scope of this thread in my non-moderator opinion.

Yes, we are getting well away from the topic of this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuzleBlast

I'm looking for people who have lived in places that instituted a registry for guns, who then duly registered their guns, only to have them confiscated later. I would like details. Serious replies only, please.

Let's get the discussion back on the topic, or it will be closed. Please refer to post #7. This isn't about who conquered the world, or who resisted the conquerors. The opening post was quite specific: Who has had to register their guns, and then had them confiscated? If it hasn't happened to you or you don't have first-hand knowledge of it happening -- there's really no reason to be posting in this thread.

mikejonestkd · February 4, 2021, 07:13 PM

In NYS all " assault rifles " had to be registered under the SAFE act. There is a provision in the law that " assault rifles " can not be transferred, even to a family member for any reason.
All handguns are also registered with the state.
I know first hand of numerous instances where individuals passed away, and the firearms were confiscate from the grieving family.

rc · February 4, 2021, 10:51 PM

I think that is ultimately the way they circumvent ex post facto criminalization but it also deprives the family of property without compensation.

**44 AMP** · February 4, 2021, 11:57 PM

Quote:

All handguns are also registered with the state.
I know first hand of numerous instances where individuals passed away, and the firearms were confiscate from the grieving family.

I had forgotten about that one, thanks for reminding me, as it is one that I should have remembered. Though I don't think its exactly what the OP is looking for.

New York State has required all handguns, and their owners, to be "registered" in their permit system. And, it has been their law since at least the 1960s though I can't speak for earlier. And, it is an actual registration system, as your handguns are listed on the permit, by make, caliber, barrel length and serial number. The guns listed on your permit, and ONLY the guns listed on your permit are the ones you may legally own.

My family was involved in a multi-car wreck in the late 60s. We survived, with some injuries, but not everyone did, and that experience lead to the discovery that, had my Dad died, his pistols (he had half a dozen, which was more than anyone else in our circles) would have had to have been surrendered to the State. (NO COMPENSATION). IF surrendered to the State Police, they would be kept 30 days, then destroyed.

If surrendered to the County Sheriff, AND a permit was applied for, they would be held until the permit application was either approved or denied.

Mom immediately applied, and her permit had all Dads pistols on it. Both my brother and I applied when we came of age. Again with all Dad's (and Mom's) pistols on them.

I got my permit in 1975. 5 sets of fingerprints, 4 photographs, and 3 "character references" were required. Now, to illustrate the fact that these people (while not always current) NEVER FORGET, I moved to the west coast in 1979. In 2001 I got a letter from NYS, informing me that, since I was no longer a NY resident, my permit was no longer valid, and THEY WANTED IT BACK!!!

That's right, the paper permit (not even cardstock, but paper, and non-laminated at that) that they had issued in 1975, they wanted it back. ALSO they wanted me to tell them the whereabouts of the pistols on it. My Dad's guns that I hadn't seen since 1990 when we buried my Mother, NYS wanted me to tell them where they were....
Probably hoping to seize them, as my permit was no longer valid...

In 2003 my Dad passed and I flew back to NY to deal with that. I was able to have 3 of his pistols shipped to my FFL in WA because my brother still had them listed on his pistol permit so the NY FFL would do it.

SO yes there is another kind of "registration leading to confiscation" out there. If your state has a permit system, or a person registration system (FOID) do check carefully what happens to their firearms if they become deceased. Some places (like NY) will try to seize them as soon as they become aware of the owner's passing.

Other places treat them as just another part of the estate and see that they reach the inheritors. Delivery might be delayed by the state if the inheritor needs to obtain a permit/FOID or meet other legal requirements.

**Frank Ettin** · February 4, 2021, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rc

...that is ultimately the way they circumvent ex post facto criminalization but it also deprives the family of property without compensation.

No, you don't understand ex post facto.This has nothing to do with ex post facto laws (which the Constitution specifies that Congress has no power to enact). Ex post facto essentially means being subject to criminal sanctions today for an act performed in the past which was legal when performed. That is different from from being subject to criminal liability for the continued possession of a thing after the effective date of a law making that thing illegal for you to possess.

If a law effective 1 Jan 2022 makes it illegal to possess X, it is not ex post facto to prosecute you for possessing X on 5 Jan 2022, and it doesn't matter that you continuously possessed X since 1997.

And confiscation of contraband is not a Fifth Amendment taking entitling one to compensation.

zxcvbob · February 5, 2021, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

No, you don't understand ex post facto.This has nothing to do with ex post facto laws (which the Constitution specifies that Congress has no power to enact). Ex post facto essentially means being subject to criminal sanctions today for an act performed in the past which was legal when performed. That is different from from being subject to criminal liability for the continued possession of a thing after the effective date of a law making that thing illegal for you to possess.

If a law effective 1 Jan 2022 makes it illegal to possess X, it is not ex post facto to prosecute you for possessing X on 5 Jan 2022, and it doesn't matter that you continuously possessed X since 1997.

And confiscation of contraband is not a Fifth Amendment taking entitling one to compensation.

Isn't making something you legally own into contraband a "taking"? The government is taking all it's value away without compensating you for it.

It's really not much different than eminent domain abuse. The government condemns your property because they want it. They offer you a pittance for it instead of a fair price -- because the land is condemned it's not worth anything so that *is* a fair price now; sucks to be you.

**Frank Ettin** · February 5, 2021, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

Isn't making something you legally own into contraband a "taking"?...

No. It's not a Fifth Amendment taking because it's not a taking for public use.

If the drug dealer's inventory is confiscated by the police, he's not entitled to compensation.

The details of "Fifth Amendment taking" law is complex and beyond the scope of this thread.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 5, 2021, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

The details of "Fifth Amendment taking" law is complex and beyond the scope of this thread.

Especially in the wake of Kelo

zoo · February 7, 2021, 03:52 AM

44Amp, why did you not just ship the weapons home and ignore the State of New York?

**Frank Ettin** · February 7, 2021, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoo

44Amp, why did you not just ship the weapons home and ignore the State of New York?

At TFL it is never acceptable to suggest violating the law. We’re about being responsible, law abiding gun owners.

rc · February 7, 2021, 02:23 PM

Frank, Do people moving property permanently from say New York to Florida need to do anything but pack and waive goodbye at the border? Are we not free to move ourselves and our possessions across state lines without asking for government permission? It seems New York's permit laws should end at the state line.

**Frank Ettin** · February 7, 2021, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rc

...Frank, Do people moving property permanently from say New York to Florida need to do anything but pack and waive goodbye at the border?...

That is not the situation described by 44Amp.

That situation involves (1) possible possession in New York of gun without the necessary New York permit; and/or (2) transfer of possession of a firearm by a resident of New York to someone who is a resident of another State.

**44 AMP** · February 7, 2021, 04:37 PM

Frank has it right.

I could not legally possess the pistols in NY state, because I didn't have a valid NYS permit for them. My brother did have a permit for them, and they were in his possession until turned over to the dealer who shipped them to my FFL dealer in WA.

And, as to just loading them in the car and driving off, it would have been a violation of NY law and FOPA would not protect me on that, as it would not apply to the situation.

Quote:

It seems New York's permit laws should end at the state line.

NY's permit laws do end at the state line, but me possessing pistols in NY without a permit, between my Dad's house and the state line would have been breaking NY law.

JERRYS. · February 7, 2021, 05:14 PM

I figured some Brits and Aussies would have chimed in by now for firsthand accounts.

rickyrick · February 8, 2021, 12:59 AM

Has there been a time in history when any population has more guns and ammunition stashed than the American population does now?
I don’t think the British or Australian citizens ever had the arsenals that exist now in America. But that’s my opinion.

**44 AMP** · February 8, 2021, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Has there been a time in history when any population has more guns and ammunition stashed than the American population does now?

Probably not. We have, in the latter part of the 20th century become a very prosperous people, overall, much more so than our pioneer ancestors for whom only one gun might have to serve all uses simply because they didn't have or couldn't afford more.

Also, unlike many of the worlds other nations, we have not had cycles of despotic rulership where general individual arms ownership has been severely restricted or completely prohibited.

Yet

zoo · February 8, 2021, 02:30 AM

Frank, I didn't suggest 44AMP do anything. I asked him a question.

zoo · February 8, 2021, 02:47 AM

For clarification, I never suggest ANYONE violate the law within the jurisdiction of their area.

From my career as a law enforcement officer it was my observation that if I were able to shadow ANYONE for a period of no more than a week, I would observe them committing no less than one felony and probably more.

**Frank Ettin** · February 8, 2021, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoo

Frank, I didn't suggest 44AMP do anything. I asked him a question.

Well, you did ask a question. But essentially the question you asked 44AMP was why he didn’t violate New York law (and perhaps federal law).

**44 AMP** · February 8, 2021, 01:57 PM

Quote:

From my career as a law enforcement officer it was my observation that if I were able to shadow ANYONE for a period of no more than a week, I would observe them committing no less than one felony and probably more.

I can see how this can happen, but I think you are painting with too broad a brush. When your only tool is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.

Which brings us back around to registration and confiscation. Gun control laws are the Govt's "hammer" used with the intent of controlling illegal behavior with guns. Registration "sets the nail" and confiscation hammers it flat. Problem solved from THEIR point of view.

Not so good for us nails, though...

ghbucky · February 8, 2021, 06:49 PM

Quote:

From my career as a law enforcement officer it was my observation that if I were able to shadow ANYONE for a period of no more than a week, I would observe them committing no less than one felony and probably more.

I'm not sure how to read this. Does that mean that you think that everyday behavior has been so criminalized that everyone falls afoul of the law on a weekly basis, or are you completely convinced that there are no law-abiding people out there?

dpadams6 · February 8, 2021, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghbucky

I'm not sure how to read this. Does that mean that you think that everyday behavior has been so criminalized that everyone falls afoul of the law on a weekly basis, or are you completely convinced that there are no law-abiding people out there?

I’m a retired officer with 27 years.
Under your scenario, a traffic offense, absolutely. Even a misdemeanor, probably. But I would not say a felony. No way.

natman · February 10, 2021, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoo

From my career as a law enforcement officer it was my observation that if I were able to shadow ANYONE for a period of no more than a week, I would observe them committing no less than one felony and probably more.

I can see multiple misdemeanors. How about a few examples of the felonies everybody commits during a week?

rc · February 10, 2021, 06:58 PM

I believe California Handgun registration goes back to 1920. Rifles have only be registered here since 2014 but the ammo background check is being used to help fill in the blanks!

defjon · February 12, 2021, 11:37 PM

Well, I'm not sure of the registration aspect but I lived in Scotland during the dunblane massacre.

After this, everything was banned and people were made to turn them in (so I'm assuming a rigorous registration was already enforced).

February 4, 2021, 07:13 PM	#27
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	In NYS all " assault rifles " had to be registered under the SAFE act. There is a provision in the law that " assault rifles " can not be transferred, even to a family member for any reason. All handguns are also registered with the state. I know first hand of numerous instances where individuals passed away, and the firearms were confiscate from the grieving family. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

February 4, 2021, 10:51 PM	#28
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,768	I think that is ultimately the way they circumvent ex post facto criminalization but it also deprives the family of property without compensation.

February 7, 2021, 03:52 AM	#34
zoo member Join Date: October 2, 2019 Posts: 414	44Amp, why did you not just ship the weapons home and ignore the State of New York?

February 7, 2021, 02:23 PM	#36
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,768	Frank, Do people moving property permanently from say New York to Florida need to do anything but pack and waive goodbye at the border? Are we not free to move ourselves and our possessions across state lines without asking for government permission? It seems New York's permit laws should end at the state line.

February 7, 2021, 05:14 PM	#39
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	I figured some Brits and Aussies would have chimed in by now for firsthand accounts.

February 8, 2021, 12:59 AM	#40
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	Has there been a time in history when any population has more guns and ammunition stashed than the American population does now? I don’t think the British or Australian citizens ever had the arsenals that exist now in America. But that’s my opinion.

February 8, 2021, 02:30 AM	#42
zoo member Join Date: October 2, 2019 Posts: 414	Frank, I didn't suggest 44AMP do anything. I asked him a question.

February 8, 2021, 02:47 AM	#43
zoo member Join Date: October 2, 2019 Posts: 414	For clarification, I never suggest ANYONE violate the law within the jurisdiction of their area. From my career as a law enforcement officer it was my observation that if I were able to shadow ANYONE for a period of no more than a week, I would observe them committing no less than one felony and probably more.

February 10, 2021, 06:58 PM	#49
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,768	I believe California Handgun registration goes back to 1920. Rifles have only be registered here since 2014 but the ammo background check is being used to help fill in the blanks!

February 12, 2021, 11:37 PM	#50
defjon Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2005 Posts: 785	Well, I'm not sure of the registration aspect but I lived in Scotland during the dunblane massacre. After this, everything was banned and people were made to turn them in (so I'm assuming a rigorous registration was already enforced).