Concealed carry

[JoeSixpack]

I don't know exactly where I'd define "good"
but I'd say the guy Shootist was talking about qualifies for sure.

But I suppose If I had to define it I'd say if the person carrying one feels confident with one enough to carry it.. Then they're probably good.

[FITASC]

FITASC.
Where I am I am more likely to need my gun when facing a steer or a bull with a bad attitude than I am a person. I am almost always carrying my 357 Magnum because that is the gun I started carrying 45 years ago. I sometimes carry my 45 but it is rare.
The only semi-auto I have is still a "new" gun and I don't trust it enough to use as a carry piece yet. I have some bad history with a 1911 and have not yet recovered from its FTF history. The "new" CZ75B has given me no problems but I want to put a few thousand rounds through it before I start training seriously with it. (that and I am not sure that 9mm is a good caliber for me)

I understand and agree completely. Not having total confidence in your equipment (no matter the situation) can be a recipe for disaster, even in a no-stakes scenario like a shooting game such as sporting clays. In a life and death scenario, the slightest hesitancy brought on by thinking about whether your gun is going to fire can get you dead.

[OldMarksman]

I don't know exactly where I'd define "good"
but I'd say the guy Shootist was talking about qualifies for sure.

Well, shooting all of one's shots into a two inch circle at ten yards is certainly "good shooting", but I seriously doubt that any qualified defensive shooting instructor would characterize it as being very applicable to self defense in the general case.

But I suppose If I had to define it I'd say if the person carrying one feels confident with one enough to carry it.. Then they're probably good.

Why would you ever think that?

There are a number of really good defensive pistol training instructors. Just to name a few, Rob Pincus, Mike Seeklander, Tom Givens, and Massad Ayoob can explain the skills most likely to be needed for using a handgun in a civilian defensive situation, and thay can teach them. And there are others.

They will point out the very significant differences between "good shooting" at a stationary target at a square range at, say, seven to ten yards or more, and defensive shooting.

Most people who avail themselves of such training will find out very quickly that what they had previously "felt confident" about is likely not what they really need.

For most students, the shorter distances and higher rates of fire involved in defensive pistol shooing training come as quite a surprise.

[JoeSixpack]

I think you missed the part where he was not just accurate but faster then him with a 1911.

The last part of your post would apply regardless of the gun they use.

Maybe you should go ask the masters for their blessing and stop asking me about it.

This argument reminds me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkY7W6kCRY4
just replace "shoes" with "gun"

[OldMarksman]

I think you missed the part where he was not just accurate but faster then him with a 1911.

What might that have to do with it?

The last part of your post would apply regardless of the gun they use.

Actually, the training of which I have spoken would do several things, and among them would be to give an appreciation of what might constitute "good", and the second, to let them know better how to select an effective defensive firearm for concealed carry.

Maybe you should go ask the masters for their blessing and stop asking me about it.

I don't have any idea what you might mean by the first part of that.

And I hate to put it quite this way, but I cannot see the point in asking you about any of this.

The OP stated that he or she carries a single action revolver for self defense, and described the kind of shooting that he or she can do with it. I pointed out that that kind of shooting is not really what one needs for self defense, and I explained why; and I suggested that one can be better able to choose a defensive firearm after some training.

As to your comment about what you think would define "good", I explained why I don't think much of it, not to be argumentative, but for the benefit of the OP.

[kraigwy]

I carry a revolver, simply because that's what I used in LE and every since. I did so to a hammerless 642.

In LE I pocket carried a 2 in Smith in my parka packet (this was Alaska) because though the parka was designed for access to my service revolver, it didn't.

Now I pocket carry my 642. I don't see the case where I'm gonna have to fight off hoards of "whatever" .

I will confess the last time I qualified for LEOSA, I qualified with a semi, but afterword I didn't feel comfortable carrying it, after 40 years or so of pocket carrying my revolver, I didn't make it home before I went back to my revolver.

I haven't open carried since I retired, and I don't see an event that would cause me to open carry now.

I'm not against open carry, its just not for me. I don't feel its anyone's business but mine whether I carry or not.

I actually like to see people open carry When see it I think, "well there is the target for the bandit to concern himself with while I seek cover and plan to do what I need to do."

[FITASC]

Kraig - do you not open carry when you're out hunting?

[OldMarksman]

I actually like to see people open carry When see it I think, "well there is the target for the bandit to concern himself with while I seek cover and plan to do what I need to do."

Good one!

[kraigwy]

Kraig - do you not open carry when you're out hunting?

No sir, unless you are talking about my rifle. But I still have my J Frame in my pocket.

[couldbeanyone]

I don't have any problem with anyone carrying a single action revolver for defense. Your life, your choice. What worries me is what is considered good by some. I have a friend who several years back was carrying a full size 9mm in a horizontal shoulder holster. He had been practicing drawing and shooting and was feeling very much good with his performance. He took great joy in making fun of me carrying 2 5 shot 38's. I carried one appendix crossdraw and another strongside hip. After yet another ribbing about it, I invited him out to shoot. Idpa target at 5 yards. I told him, at the beep of the timer, draw and shoot the target. After several attempts, his best time was 2.8 seconds to draw and fire one shot on target. Which he felt very good about. I then had him run the timer. I drew my crossdraw snubby from concealment and fired 5 rounds into the A zone of the target, total time, 2.3 seconds. I looked at him and said, I think you have a problem. He very shortly thereafter reevaluated what good was and his carry choices.
If you are going to carry a single action revolver, at least go spectate at a uspsa match or a steel challenge to get some sort of reference of what a good fast performance on even a single target is, much less multiple targets. Then watch some surveillance videos of shootouts on Youtube and see how quickly things really happen.
At the risk of sounding harsh, 3 targets spread at three yards apart in just over 7 seconds was cited as an example. That performance will get you positively smoked by a 65 year old gray haired woman at a steel challenge match. If you are happy with that. God bless and carry on. I'm just saying be realistic about your capabilities. After all, a gunfight is about the most serious form of competition there is.

[OldMarksman]

If you are going to carry a single action revolver, at least go spectate at a uspsa match or a steel challenge to get some sort of reference of what a good fast performance on even a single target is, much less multiple targets. Then watch some surveillance videos of shootouts on Youtube and see how quickly things really happen.

Excellent advice, but I would not limit it to those who might intend to carry a single action revolver. I was carrying a 9mm double-stack compact when my eyes were opened to those things.

At the risk of sounding harsh, 3 targets spread at three yards apart in just over 7 seconds was cited as an example. That performance will get you positively smoked by a 65 year old gray haired woman at a steel challenge match. If you are happy with that. God bless and carry on. I'm just saying be realistic about your capabilities. After all, a gunfight is about the most serious form of competition there is.

That, too, is so,thing that must b learned.

[ShootistPRS]

Couldbeanyone and OldMarkman,
How quickly can you run the El Presidente drill? Three targets, three yards apart, at 10 yards. Two shots on each target, followed by a reload and two more shots in each target?
Seven seconds with a single action is a pretty good time. I do it in 6 seconds with my DA 357. !0 seconds used to be the standard by which you were considered good. Now I understand that with speed guns the fastest times are dropping to close to three seconds but the rules on concealed carry are gone and the competitors are obviously not using the gun they carry in the manner in which they carry it.

[OldMarksman]

How quickly can you run the El Presidente drill?

I don't.

Around seven years ago, I was intruded to it. In the course of one day's shooting, I improved my time by about 30% or more. I frankly cannot remember my best times. I was shooting a Commander-size steel frame .45. Those who were using larger frame 9mm pistols did a lot better.

Accordion to Jim Wilson, El Presidente times of ten seconds are "par" with a semi-automatic pistol, and When shooting a revolver, par for the drill is about 12 to 13 seconds. That's caring with a cover garment.

The drill has its uses, but it's not for me, for four reasons: (1) the shooter always knows where the target is in advance; (2) the distance is always the same; (3) ten yards is somewhat beyond the range of distances at which a defensive shooting incident is likely to take place; and (4) the emphasis is all on speed, and not on achieving a good balance of speed and precision.

On (3), one might think that skill at ten years should be transferable to shooting at two yards, but that is really not entirely true. On (4), speed is the objective of the drill, but once one can do it, it is, in my opinion better to go on to something else.

I recommend the I. C. E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting course. The distances will vary, and the student will not know where the target is in advance; "split times" are not measured--the emphasis is on a balance of speed and precision. That will depend on the distance in each "encounter", each of which will involve placing three to five rounds in the upper chest area as quickly as possible after identifying the target and drawing while moving off-line. Almost all of the distances will be well within ten yards--most within five.

Reloading is part of the drill, but not after a fixed number of rounds. The gun is loaded with varying numbers, and the purpose of the reloading exercise is to help develop skills to react to an unexpected malfunction.

[couldbeanyone]

How fast can I run El presidente?

Its not something I really practice anymore. Used to be around 5 seconds. I don't compete much in anything but steel challenge anymore. I am 55 and my knees aren't what they used to be. Competitions that require running and rapid direction changes are generally not for me anymore. I don't shoot race gear. Leather holsters and production guns are for me. Although I compete often, I have never been a "serious" competitor, never bothered with uspsa membership or getting "classified". I always shoot production or limited, but I always want to beat everyone. I don't care about being classified as a master, I just want to beat the guy who is.
But enough of that, in my opinion, which is worth what you paid for it, unless you can go to a steel challenge match and finish in at least the top half overall with your single action revolver you are not "good". If you can't do that, perhaps more practice or an easier type of gun to perform with such as an auto or a double action revolver could be in order. After all, your opponent may not limit themselves.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

After reading this thread, assume you have Doc Brown's DeLorean.

You go back to the old West (as they did) - you bring along some Glock 19s. You meet Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill, etc. You offer to sell them the guns with lots of ammo and magazines for some new $20 gold pieces.

Do they turn you down for their single actions?

[OldMarksman]

You go back to the old West (as they did) - you bring along some Glock 19s. You meet Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill, etc. You offer to sell them the guns with lots of ammo and magazines for some new $20 gold pieces.

Do they turn you down for their single actions?

In his admittedly paid testimonials, one William Barclay Masterson, former marshal of Dodge and former US Deputy Marshal, made some very persuasive arguments about the advantages of the Model 1907 Savage semiautomatic pistol in .32 ACP.

[ShootistPRS]

Yet "Bat" never owned anything other than SA revolvers. Eight of them throughout his life.

[OldMarksman]

Yet "Bat" never owned anything other than SA revolvers.

That is something that would be impossible to prove.

What did he have with him at Adobe Walls? With what did he hunt buffalo?

Did he pass on the opportunity to own a Savage after having written a book about it under contract? Why?

Eight of them throughout his life.

There is an account that Masterson ordered eight from the Colt factory. Another account claims six; and yet another, nine.

He was reportedly given one by a Mr. Buntline.

And he reportedly bought a number from pawnshops, for re-sale.

[Siggy-06]

No handgun is a 'battle gun'. Pretty sure no army in history has sent out soldiers with nothing but handguns to battle. Pistols are sidearms, pistols are concealable, and pistols also cannot compete with rifle calibers(velocity, range, damage, ect). Statistically speaking, more people die from knife wounds than gunshot wounds. A handgun is a great deterrent, good in close quarters against limited number of badguys, and can be hidden much easier.

[ShootistPRS]

It is always impossible to prove a negative. It is possible to find evidence of his orders from the Colt factory. I'm just an old man remembering the history I learned along the way. My memory isn't always accurate but I don't remember him ever using anything but SA revolvers.
It was Bat's norm to order directly from Colt when he wanted a gun or two. There are records of at least a few of his eight that were ordered from the Colt factory.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Pistols are not by definition, utility, or usage "battle guns". They are for last chance defensive work only.

[ShootistPRS]

Kevin,
The statistics of handgun use in the USA by civilians contradicts your assessment.

[OldMarksman]

The statistics of handgun use in the USA by civilians contradicts your assessment [that pistols are for last chance defensive work only].

If one confines the statistics to lawful use of handguns by civilians, that assessment is spot on.

Lawful use almost always means "for defense of persons", and it always means, as a last resort.

[hdwhit]

ShootistPRS wrote:
The idea was brought up that a particular gun was not good for carry because it wasn't a "battle" gun.

Thoreau wrote, "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." For some people coping with that manifests itself in living their life as if their living room might at any moment be transformed into the O.K. Corral.

And if people who want to envision their life as something about to erupt into the opening scene from an episode of Law & Oder want to prepare for that, they have that right. And they have the right to post advice according to that expectation.

What you have to ask yourself is what you expect your concealed (or open) carry weapon to do?

If you expect to be facing a biker gang at a restaurant in Waco, Texas, then, yeah, you need all the gun and all the ammunition you can get. But if you just want to defend yourself against a junkie looking for money for his next fix, anything with a barrel and firing pin is probably sufficient.

The organization I am contracted with for most of my work doesn't allow weapons (or ammunition) on the premises - including in a car in the parking lot - so rather than having at 5:00 a.m. to make sure I haven't left behind even a wayward 22 LR, I don't carry most of the time. But when I did routinely carry, it was an RG-25, 25 ACP pistol. The two times I was called upon to draw it, it was all I needed.

Again, ask yourself what you expect to need the pistol to do and then arm yourself accordingly, train for those eventualities, and ignore the people who expect to refight the Battle of the Bulge on their way home tonight.

[JoeSixpack]

It's a big leap to go from a small pocket gun as reasonable to a fullsize handgun being ready for reenactment of the battle of the bulge.

I can't think of any pistol I'd choose as my primary weapon in a firefight.. maybe a pair of glock 18's with 33's in them.

But I think I'd still pick a good rifle.

Despite what the news tells you the country is pretty safe.. how many of us outside of LE have had to draw a gun on someone let alone shoot them?

It's uncommon to need a gun at all so hell maybe battle of the bulge will erupt in my living room to night.. who's to say.

If you are just planing on staving off a lone mugger then that's fine.. It's not uncommon for them to come quantities of more then 1 though you should know.