The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 7, 2017, 07:34 AM   #76
jrinne0430
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 207
Both candidates for VA Governor are in support of the ban. Yes, this includes Ed Gillespie. Once the NRA gave in, so many feel it is safe to do the same. I don't know how the NRA and some of the pro-2nd congressional members thought giving in is somehow wise. More demands and bans to follow.

https://wtop.com/virginia/2017/10/af...n-bump-stocks/

Last edited by jrinne0430; October 7, 2017 at 07:55 AM.
jrinne0430 is offline  
Old October 7, 2017, 07:56 AM   #77
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 7,677
So far, it has been pretty predictable. Based on the comments I've read in news stories, people who hated the NRA still hate the NRA and are demanding more capitulation. Meanwhile, about half the people who supported NRA are madder than heck and tearing up membership cards. Same result for politicians who adopt the NRA's playbook on this (Dean Heller's Facebook page was an excellent example).

All of which was eminently forseeable as well. I'm not even sure why NRA felt they needed to comment on this issue. Let the Trump Administration announce it was reviewing the Obama era ATF decision and NRA can then release a statement saying "We'll continue to keep an eye on ATF and wait to see what their findings are." That moves the decision to ATF instead of trying to watch Congress draft a bill that is going to be the camel nose on semi autos. It signals the NRA's base that the NRA is active without hemming NRA in to any oarticular course of action.

If the rumors I've heard that LaPierre and Cox released that statement without running it by the Board first are true, then both of those officers need to be removed from their positions as a statement like "The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations." indicates a vision of the NRA incompatible with mine and I believe, most of its membership.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old October 7, 2017, 08:06 AM   #78
jrinne0430
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 207
I believe the NRA’s decision did more damage to our movement than losing any legal bump stock challenge. If we would have lost, at least we all would have done so standing shoulder to shoulder, NRA and all. However; their decision appears to have widen the internal gap among us, increased the resistance to the NRA, to the so called pro-2nd congressional members, and thus weakened us. I pray I am wrong.

Last edited by jrinne0430; October 7, 2017 at 08:57 AM.
jrinne0430 is offline  
Old October 7, 2017, 01:11 PM   #79
JoeSixpack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrinne0430 View Post
Both candidates for VA Governor are in support of the ban. Yes, this includes Ed Gillespie. Once the NRA gave in, so many feel it is safe to do the same. I don't know how the NRA and some of the pro-2nd congressional members thought giving in is somehow wise. More demands and bans to follow.
Ya know I was worried about the federal level, I know some states will ban them but I wasn't thinking about my own state.. I already contacted my senators (house rep is rabid), But I guess I should be voicing to my State Legislature too.

I was really worried Buckeye Firearms (state org) would fall in behind the NRA since they're really chummy with them.. but I was pleasantly surprised to see they aren't backing down on bumpstocks.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/regu...another-attack

They have a interesting video of Iraq vet and jerry miculek going at it.. IV with a bump stock and it was neck and neck even so.


IF Wayne made the statement on his own and they get rid of him that would go a very long way's with me, I could probably forget the statement ever happen.. although the damage is done I think.
__________________
NRA sold us out
This is America!, You have the right to be stupid.
JoeSixpack is offline  
Old October 7, 2017, 01:34 PM   #80
tony pasley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2006
Location: western north carolina
Posts: 1,641
Regulation can be over turned with a stroke of a pen. Laws have to be repealed which is easier
__________________
Every day Congress is in session we lose a little bit more of our Liberty.
tony pasley is offline  
Old October 7, 2017, 02:22 PM   #81
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony pasley
Regulation can be over turned with a stroke of a pen.....
That’s not accurate. The Administratve Procedures Act must be complied with for the adoption, amendment, or repeal of a regulation. While that’s not a political action requiring a vote of an elected body, it is a formal, involved, and public process that is more complex than “the stroke of a pen.”
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old October 7, 2017, 03:33 PM   #82
jrinne0430
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 207
No matter how I look at this, I cannot fathom how the NRA, and the congressional members that followed suit, would think giving in on this is best for our movement...immediate compitulation, no fight, nothing. As indicated by posts here and elsewhere, this move appears to not only have stoked the disagreements among us, but also is pulling support from the NRA, and support for many of those congressional members. I hope I'm wrong but I can see a potential train wreck coming.

As for Ed Gillespie, who needs every bit of the votes from the Trump supporters in hopes of winning the VA governorship, I do not see how him joining the call for a ban helped his position. Many of us were not enthusiastic about him and now he does this...?

Last edited by jrinne0430; October 7, 2017 at 03:56 PM.
jrinne0430 is offline  
Old October 7, 2017, 04:01 PM   #83
Bucksnort1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2013
Location: Littleton, Colorado
Posts: 924
sirgilligan,

Badda Bing, Badda Boom! Slippery slope. You nailed it.
Bucksnort1 is offline  
Old October 7, 2017, 04:09 PM   #84
Bucksnort1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2013
Location: Littleton, Colorado
Posts: 924
jmorris,

You are correct. The BATFE describes a fully auto weapon as one that will fire with one pull of the trigger and as long as the trigger is in the rear position. A bump fire requires the action of the trigger finger each time.

But, I'll be honest with you. The first time I saw a bump fire, about five years ago, I thought it wouldn't be long before they are banned. I'm not for banning them.
Bucksnort1 is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 10:51 AM   #85
jrinne0430
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 207
As mentioned in another thread, maybe it's time for new leadership at the NRA. I believe the amount of damage done by the NRA's stand, and thus; having many congressional members jump on board, is more than Feinstein, Pelosi, Soros, could have ever hoped of achieving.

Last edited by jrinne0430; October 8, 2017 at 11:00 AM.
jrinne0430 is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 11:33 AM   #86
O4L
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 16, 2015
Posts: 538
Cox stated this morning while being interviewed (interrogated) by Chris Wallace that the NRA believes the bump stock should have more regulations placed on it.
O4L is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 11:45 AM   #87
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 7,677
Did Cox specify who should be doing that - Congress or ATF? Because if it goes to Congress we'll end up with more gun control being added to the bill than just bumpstocks.

Aside from that, it seems we have someone in charge of NRA-ILA who likes to open negotiations by making an immediate concession to opponents without receiving anything in return. I think, as I mentioned in the other thread, it is way past time for Cox and LaPierre to go. They aren't even good spokespeople.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 12:08 PM   #88
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 19,656
The push is for legislation as Diane F. said on the tube today, not a regulation. The argument is that legislation can do more to encompass many items, rather than a specific hit on this gadget or identical ones.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 01:48 PM   #89
fredvon4
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2010
Location: Lampasas Texas
Posts: 154
Country where we all are entitled an opinion
I personal see no value of a bump stock....and I see a LOT of potential for the thing to severely damage any future GUN RIGHTS arguments.

BUT-- I do want to live where any adult can buy or make what ever gives him/her satisfaction or joy as long as that satisfaction or joy does not negatively impact any other citizen

I have long watched the NRA and all the anti gun folks. I don't think the NRA is on ANY BAND-WAGON...But it may be IMO they are acting pragmatically

IN this, me first, selfish, and entitled citizenry; that seems to demand daily the Federal government to manage EVERY aspect of their lives...

I tend to think fighting a battle to have Fred's right play with a bump stock is not smart...YES defending my absolute right is important

BUT ---considering the event... trying to convince the government and the ... citizens that ALL of US should have access to, an (in essence) AUTOMATIC WEAPON is just a loser position

Each time these events happen...we WILL loose freedoms.. Just a matter of holding fast for the VERY most important battles.... Bump stocks are NOT that important a battle IMO

Last edited by Evan Thomas; October 8, 2017 at 06:19 PM. Reason: language.
fredvon4 is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 02:12 PM   #90
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,758
Wayne La Pierre just ate a crow:

Quote:
On Sunday, the organization said it was open to regulation but opposed any legislation banning the devices.

"We don't believe that bans have ever worked on anything. What we have said has been very clear - that if something transfers a semiautomatic to function like a fully automatic, then it ought to be regulated differently," Chris Cox, the NRA's chief lobbyist, said on "Fox News Sunday."
thallub is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 02:25 PM   #91
O4L
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 16, 2015
Posts: 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by thallub View Post
Wayne La Pierre just ate a crow:
Quote:
"We don't believe that bans have ever worked on anything. What we have said has been very clear - that if something transfers a semiautomatic to function like a fully automatic, then it ought to be regulated differently," Chris Cox, the NRA's chief lobbyist, said on "Fox News Sunday."
That statement is what I was referring to in the post above.

Thanks for posting it. My internet is very slow today so I didn't try to find it online.
O4L is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 02:33 PM   #92
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,803
"Regulated differently"

This is not the same as "banned" nor the same as making bump fire stocks an NFA item.

what are the regulation on them now?? None that I know of. Its a stock, not a firearm.

PERHAPS it ought to have SOME level of restriction, but I don't see the NRA's stance as anything more than that, saying it ought to be reviewed.

They aren't jumping to the extreme end of the list of options like the anti's always do.

Personally, I think this was a brilliant move on the part of the NRA, it just about cuts the legs off the anti's arguments, and it does cut the legs off their attempts to blame the NRA.

For those of you who can't stand the thought of them "giving in" on anything, that's your opinion, but remember that when you fight to the last man and the last bullet for a worthless position, most of the time, you wind up out of ammo, and dead.

Being able to maneuver can mitigate a defeat, and sometimes can even turn one into a victory.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 02:50 PM   #93
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: Potatoes and Hops
Posts: 11,396
I think the NRA is trying to leverage the 'bump stocks' into being declared an NFA item, in order to use them as another point in arguing for opening the registry to post-'86 machine guns.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 03:29 PM   #94
jrinne0430
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 207
The NRA gave in with no fight. It appears the move allowed many in congress to jump behind the NRA and to save face. I still see this as a slow moving train wreck. By stating that something that can make a semi act as a automatic ought to be regulated, just opened the doors for all semi auto to be viewed under the same lense. With practice, I can bump fire holding my belt loop and from the shoulder....no device needed. When the next shooting occurs, what are the anti's going to demand? The NRA offered the stock, and it is not enough (see Sen Kaine's bill in this thread). The anti crowd will never be satisfied.
jrinne0430 is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 04:21 PM   #95
JoeSixpack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,049
They'd just regulate the bump stocks as something else other than a machine gun.. that registry ain't opening up anytime soon and I never had any faith even before all this that the NRA would ever fight to that end.

@44 that's fine man, chill out in the back for a bit and rest up.
BTW we should probably know what worthless position you're willing to uh? Die? For so we know when to wake you.


Now me personally Im ready to have the ultimate show down.. all or nothing.
We lost so much before I was even born Im not willing to give an inch.

If they wanted to have a serious conversation I'd be willing to make concessions but the stuff I want in return will NEVER happen.. Im hungry, I want steak on my plate, I'm not willing to give away anything without some reciprocation.

You want complete and total registration? fine, You want a complete and total elimination of private sales fine, you can know everything I have I don't care.. you're not gonna come to my door looking for it we all know that.. no the anit's way is thru piece meal law, bit by bit, bite by bite, like a damn piranha eating its' prey.

But in exchange we wipe everything else out, I own what I want..
NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.. Look at the history they don't give only take.
Well I want everything left on my plate and I don't care if all you want is a french fry "bump stocks" Im gonna stab your hand with my fork.

You may sneak off with that fry after all but im not gonna just sit there and let it happen.
This ain't a battlefield, We loose the fight we loose the fight.. we'll have another one tomorrow.

Actually we'll have another one tomorrow WIN or LOOSE.
Ya'll remember the arcade games.. especially the fighting games?
Looser pays, Winner stays.. Our quarter is already in the machine.. the only way we don't loose is if we keep winning, Beating back challenge after challenge.

They only gotta get it right once, we gotta get it right 100% of the time.
__________________
NRA sold us out
This is America!, You have the right to be stupid.

Last edited by JoeSixpack; October 8, 2017 at 04:37 PM. Reason: meant to say piece meal law not courts.
JoeSixpack is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 04:25 PM   #96
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,288
What happens if the ATF doesn't make the leap to regulate bump stocks? I would think there might be a court challenge based on the federal definition. Federal law defines machineguns as:

The term ‘‘machinegun’’ means any weapon
which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be
readily restored to shoot, automatically more
than one shot, without manual reloading, by a
single function of the trigger.
The term shall
also include the frame or receiver of any such
weapon, any part designed and intended solely
and exclusively, or combination of parts designed
and intended, for use in converting a
weapon into a machinegun, and any combination
of parts from which a machinegun can be
assembled if such parts are in the possession or
under the control of a person.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 08:16 PM   #97
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: Potatoes and Hops
Posts: 11,396
Quote:
...by a
single function of the trigger.
It isn't a single function of the trigger. It's a single function of the finger.
The trigger is being pulled and reset for each and every shot fired.
That's why it was approved in the first place. (Just like the 3MR trigger, even though its operation is mechanical and not based on recoil.)
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 09:10 PM   #98
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,288
FM, I think the point is that the gun goes bang once each time the trigger is pulled with a bump stock and that doesn't meet the definition of a machinegun under federal law. If the ATF decides their first ruling on the bump stock is correct (and I think it is), what happens then?
2damnold4this is offline  
Old October 8, 2017, 09:57 PM   #99
JoeSixpack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,049
I think the definition as it is makes it pretty safe as far as it IS your finger that's pulling the trigger and the trigger is still operating as designed without modification.

So I don't think the ATF could reverse course on that grounds.. They would probably have to find some thing else about the stock they could attack.. I mean there ain't much to them.

They targeted the spring in the Atkins as a mechanical device, but the slide fire came out after and specifically avoided that pitfall by requiring you to do the springs job and pull forward.

So I dunno.
__________________
NRA sold us out
This is America!, You have the right to be stupid.
JoeSixpack is offline  
Old October 9, 2017, 12:46 AM   #100
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,803
Possibilities???

I've been thinking about the NRA's statement(s) and possibilities. Yep, a clear and blatant betrayal...or is it??

I wound up watching one of the liberal anti gun, anti trump, anti everything but their way, tv shows, and they did talk about guns, and politics.

It was rather enlightening. They are stunned by the NRA's "reasonableness", and don't know quite what to do, and are arguing amongst themselves over what is the best way to proceed.

PERHAPS, the NRA's position was intended to do this. TO buy time.

TIME for emotions to cool, facts to be determines, and hopefully reason to prevail.

Face it, what are the "standard" tactics of the gun haters after such a tragedy? Scream, often and loudly that
#1 SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!
#2 The NRA and the gun lobby is evil because they resist something being done.

Then they trot out bills they have been preparing for just such a crisis, with their entire wish list, in whole, or part, and anything we oppose, is opposition to "common sense".

By calling for a review (especially since the administration that ALLOWED bump fire stocks was Obama, and beloved of so many,...on their side, anyway, they cannot blame Republicans "controlled by the NRA" for the LEGAL existence & sale of the item.

They also cannot just come out and say the decision was wrong, or flawed or faulty, because that also reflects poorly on that administration. They are trapped, because they cannot appear disloyal to the party, and besides, the decision WAS the correct one, legally. Like free speech for Nazi's they may not like the item, but if it does not violate existing law (and the stocks don't), they're stuck with accepting it, or being publically exposed as hypocrites.

The only acceptable political path now open to the "Ban it! BAN IT NOW!" crowd is to WAIT for a review (or they will be seen as even more unreasonable than they currently are), and AFTER a review, they will, sadly admit that they previous administration erred in allowing the stocks. (of course they are assuming they can pressure the ATF into a different finding than they made before.

And having to wait takes a LOT of the wind out of their sails. If they don't get to pass their ban them all laws while people are still very upset and not thinking long term, they usually lose. After things cool down, people start thinking about their rights, and not about the body count.

Striking while the iron is hot is best, the more it cools, the less malleable it is.

SO, PERHAPS the entire point of the NRA's change of tactics is to buy time for the "iron" to cool??

It has, at least the novelty of being something different, and may actually work out. Doing what we have been doing, has been a losing proposition for our side, while emotions are running high. We make gains when emotions are cool and logic and reason prevail. After a mass shooting, emotions prevail, and the tactics we have been using have not been very effective, particularly in metro areas.

My point here is that anything, even a perceived "betrayal" that delays the other side getting bills PASSED (they can introduce as many as they want, introduction of a bill machts nichts) is a good thing for our side.

In the eyes of the public not already in one camp or the other, if the NRA is being reasonable, calling for further review, then the ones wanting to pass bans NOW, become the unreasonable ones.

In other words, the "betrayal" might just be a clever ruse. I'd like to think so.

America is the land of "if it seems stupid, but it works, its not stupid". I hope this is one of those, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But what if I'm not, and it works???
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11970 seconds with 8 queries