Belted Case Sizing Tool

Bucksnort1 · September 16, 2021, 09:25 PM

A short story here.

Many years ago, I began loading for Weatherby 300. Through trial by error, I learned about possible sizing problems with belted cases. I found the tool to do the job from a manufacturer in Florida (name slips my mind).

In posting a thread about this tool, someone sent a photo of a sizing tool they made from a Weatherby 300 sizing die. This is a tool to size the case all the way to the belt. The loader modified the die by cutting off part of the die. A photo of the modified die was sent to me by private email through the Firing Line.

I printed a copy of the photo and kept it in my information folder for many years then, last year I sold all of my 300 dies and I tossed the photo.

Now, I am in need of this photo. I'm looking for the person who sent the photo and who will send again.

I know this is a shot in the dark but thought I'd try.

Thank you.

Woody'sDad · September 17, 2021, 02:42 AM

Are you looking for Larry Willis at Innovative Technology?
He makes a belted magnum die that works well for most all belted cases
He is in Apopka?? Florida
Just google innovative technology if so

Just a shot in the dark

Gary

Bucksnort1 · September 17, 2021, 02:36 PM

Woody's Dad,

Not looking for Larry. It is his product I purchased many years ago. As I said, I did a posting on his product and received a response from someone who made a simple bulge buster by modifying a Weatherby 300 mag sizing die. This person sent me a photo of what he made. I kept that photo until last year but now want to see it again so I'm looking for the person who sent the photo.

GeauxTide · September 17, 2021, 08:04 PM

I'm confused. Have loaded belted mags since the 70s. Belted cases headspace on the belt, so I only neck sized after 1st firing in order to leave the shoulder fitted to the chamber. Have never experienced any issues.

dahermit · September 17, 2021, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeauxTide

I'm confused. Have loaded belted mags since the 70s. Belted cases headspace on the belt, so I only neck sized after 1st firing in order to leave the shoulder fitted to the chamber. Have never experienced any issues.

It has been my understanding that belted cases head space on the belt for the first time they are fired. After that they head space on the shoulder like all other bottle-neck rounds. Is that not correct?

Bucksnort1 · September 17, 2021, 09:52 PM

As happens many times, the initial thread topic becomes lost in replies.

I don't have a problem with sizing or head space or belts because I no longer load for any belted cartridge.

Just looking for a lost photo. It's simple. Thank you.

hounddawg · September 18, 2021, 02:56 AM

this wouldn't happen to be what you are looking for is it?

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...l_201007/99146

mehavey · September 18, 2021, 06:13 AM

Quote:

It has been my understanding that belted cases head space
on the belt for the first time they are fired. After that they
head space on the shoulder like all other bottle-neck rounds.
Is that not correct?

Yes.... sorta.

New and/or commercial cartridges will be dimensionally-sized to where the shoulder
doesn't play in chamber fit -- only the belt (consider it to be a rimmed case at the point)

When reloading after that, only partially re-size so as to headspace off the shoulder, and
don't go crazy 'magnumizing" the load. Cases will have same (even better) life as standard
bottleneck from that point.

**Unclenick** · September 18, 2021, 09:24 AM

Bucksnort1,

A photo sent to you by private email should still be attached to the email if you haven't deleted that along with your downloaded copy of it. Beyond that, if you know the person posted about one of the belted magnum cartridges, all I can suggest is using the forum's advanced search feature to find posts about belted cartridges from the approximate time period in which you received the email to try to uncover the member's username. It's a laborious process going through a lot of old posts, so it is best done with a pot of coffee prepared in advance of the undertaking.

As noted, a lot of belted magnum owners headspace on the shoulders of their cartridges. The belts on the old 400/375 NE and on the 375 H&H were supposed to provide better headspacing than the narrow shoulders on these rimless cartridges could do. But when you neck the case down to 30 calibers (or smaller), you no longer lack sufficient shoulder area for headspacing as an option. But headspacing on the shoulder of a belted cartridge tends to marry the brass to the rifle they are developed in. You can see why in the SAAMI drawings. The belt and its seat in the chamber both have tolerances. The shoulder then has to have a maximum case and minimum chamber location value for the worst-case combination of a belt located low on the case and a headspace that is long. The case shoulder then also has a minimum value and the chamber a maximum value, and when you add those two sets of tolerances up, the worst case and best case can have quite a difference in as-fired shoulder locations, making the idea of headspacing on the shoulder tricky to set up for more than one rifle at a time.

All those potential cumulative tolerance errors mean that sizing dies have to be made to accommodate the worst case, as well. That means making them long in terms of belt location and short in terms of shoulder location. You can grind the mouth down on a sizing die so you can set it to reach the front edge of a case belt that is on the minimum side of length from the breech end of the case head, but you will be pushing the shoulder back pretty far doing that, so I would not expect great case life from such an arrangement.

Anyway, all that interaction between shoulder and belt tolerances is why Larry Willis came up with his belted magnum collet sizers that get around the tolerances while ensuring the case just in front of the belt is narrow enough to feed like a new case. Does the average belted magnum owner who headspaces on the shoulder need that? If I were taking the gun out on a dangerous game hunt, I would want to be sure my cartridges fit like new ones for the speed of a follow-up shot. People shooting targets long-range from a prone position may also find the shoulder has to be the headspace determinate to best center the bullet in the throat when the firing pin drives the cartridge forward, and that narrowing the brass at the belt ensures it doesn't interfere with that shoulder reaching contact, so that's a maybe.

Bucksnort1 · September 18, 2021, 09:23 PM

hounddawg, if you are referring the the short die a few pages in, this is close but not quite. In this photo, forget the lower piece for a moment then look at the upper piece. It looked like this but with a clean cut at the beginning of the first screw groove. I believe his goal was to remove the smooth part below the thread grooves which would eliminate the round smooth radius (if that's the right term) at the mouth of the die. This would make the die sit directly on the belt when cycled and which would remove a bulge. I want the photo to see if I can tell exactly where he made the cut. Again, this is not for me. It's for a friend who is new to loading and who is loading 7mm Rem mag. He neck sizes only because all his brass is once fired in his rifle but still has cases fitting a bit too tight. I think his problem is bulging.

Unclenik, I will search for emails but it could have been a photo attached to a reply.

Thanks to both of you.

**Unclenick** · September 20, 2021, 06:53 PM

If I understand your description correctly, yes, grinding the die mouth back would cause the mouth to get closer to the first external thread. That's what I was trying to describe. If you grind 0.017" off the standard die mouth, you should be able to set the die to size completely down to the belt. Just be aware your may also be setting the shoulder back farther than you really want to.

Jim Watson · September 20, 2021, 07:25 PM

If I wanted to size up to the belt, I would alter a full length sizing die by
1. Grind back the die mouth so the body section will reach the belt. as Unclenick says.
2. Cut the top part of the die off, leaving just enough to thread into the press so it won't set back the shoulder or taper out the front half of the body. You could probably use it for any belted cartridge.

Bucksnort1 · September 20, 2021, 09:42 PM

Unclenick,

You have solved the problem. I'm gathering this information for a friend who is new to loading and who loads for 7mm Mag. Most of his cases are once fired in his rifle but occasionally, he has a few cases that won't chamber properly. He has no way to remove the bulge.

He is a machinist, among other things, so he has the necessary tools to modify the barrel of a 300 Weatherby sizing die. I'm sure he will do as Jim Watson suggests and make the die just long enough to bust bulges but not size the entire case.

**Unclenick** · September 22, 2021, 05:59 PM

I added more in the other thread, about cutting the top off (removing the die shoulder if it is stopping the case from inserting far enough). You end up with a short die that de-bulges brass. You may need to take a hone to it to widen it a bit because of the body taper, but you'd find out with the first case you did that way whether it was over-resizing or not.

GeauxTide · September 22, 2021, 09:14 PM

It has been my understanding that belted cases head space on the belt for the first time they are fired. After that they head space on the shoulder like all other bottle-neck rounds. Is that not correct?

Dahermit, No, Belted Mags always headspace on the belt.

Jim Watson · September 22, 2021, 09:32 PM

Quote:

You may need to take a hone to it to widen it a bit because of the body taper,

If he uses a .300 Weatherby die to make a "bulge buster" for 7mm Rem Mag, that would not likely be needed.

Quote:

No, Belted Mags always headspace on the belt.

Not if you resize them with just a bit of shoulder "bump" like you would a rimless case.
People have been ignoring the belt in reloading for a long long time.

Bart B. · September 22, 2021, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeauxTide

Dahermit, No, Belted Mags always headspace on the belt.

Not if they're neck only resized.

Or full length resized without setting the shoulder back more than about 2 thousandths inch.

September 16, 2021, 09:25 PM	#1
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	Belted Case Sizing Tool A short story here. Many years ago, I began loading for Weatherby 300. Through trial by error, I learned about possible sizing problems with belted cases. I found the tool to do the job from a manufacturer in Florida (name slips my mind). In posting a thread about this tool, someone sent a photo of a sizing tool they made from a Weatherby 300 sizing die. This is a tool to size the case all the way to the belt. The loader modified the die by cutting off part of the die. A photo of the modified die was sent to me by private email through the Firing Line. I printed a copy of the photo and kept it in my information folder for many years then, last year I sold all of my 300 dies and I tossed the photo. Now, I am in need of this photo. I'm looking for the person who sent the photo and who will send again. I know this is a shot in the dark but thought I'd try. Thank you.

September 17, 2021, 08:04 PM	#4
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	I'm confused. Have loaded belted mags since the 70s. Belted cases headspace on the belt, so I only neck sized after 1st firing in order to leave the shoulder fitted to the chamber. Have never experienced any issues. __________________ Reloading For: 223R, 243W, 6.5 GR, 6.5 CM, 260R, 6.5-06, 280R, 7mmRM, 300HAM'R, 308W, 30-06, 338-06, 9mm, 357M, 41M, 44SPL, 44M, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 450BM.

September 18, 2021, 02:56 AM	#7
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	this wouldn't happen to be what you are looking for is it? https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...l_201007/99146 __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

September 18, 2021, 09:24 AM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Bucksnort1, A photo sent to you by private email should still be attached to the email if you haven't deleted that along with your downloaded copy of it. Beyond that, if you know the person posted about one of the belted magnum cartridges, all I can suggest is using the forum's advanced search feature to find posts about belted cartridges from the approximate time period in which you received the email to try to uncover the member's username. It's a laborious process going through a lot of old posts, so it is best done with a pot of coffee prepared in advance of the undertaking. As noted, a lot of belted magnum owners headspace on the shoulders of their cartridges. The belts on the old 400/375 NE and on the 375 H&H were supposed to provide better headspacing than the narrow shoulders on these rimless cartridges could do. But when you neck the case down to 30 calibers (or smaller), you no longer lack sufficient shoulder area for headspacing as an option. But headspacing on the shoulder of a belted cartridge tends to marry the brass to the rifle they are developed in. You can see why in the SAAMI drawings. The belt and its seat in the chamber both have tolerances. The shoulder then has to have a maximum case and minimum chamber location value for the worst-case combination of a belt located low on the case and a headspace that is long. The case shoulder then also has a minimum value and the chamber a maximum value, and when you add those two sets of tolerances up, the worst case and best case can have quite a difference in as-fired shoulder locations, making the idea of headspacing on the shoulder tricky to set up for more than one rifle at a time. All those potential cumulative tolerance errors mean that sizing dies have to be made to accommodate the worst case, as well. That means making them long in terms of belt location and short in terms of shoulder location. You can grind the mouth down on a sizing die so you can set it to reach the front edge of a case belt that is on the minimum side of length from the breech end of the case head, but you will be pushing the shoulder back pretty far doing that, so I would not expect great case life from such an arrangement. Anyway, all that interaction between shoulder and belt tolerances is why Larry Willis came up with his belted magnum collet sizers that get around the tolerances while ensuring the case just in front of the belt is narrow enough to feed like a new case. Does the average belted magnum owner who headspaces on the shoulder need that? If I were taking the gun out on a dangerous game hunt, I would want to be sure my cartridges fit like new ones for the speed of a follow-up shot. People shooting targets long-range from a prone position may also find the shoulder has to be the headspace determinate to best center the bullet in the throat when the firing pin drives the cartridge forward, and that narrowing the brass at the belt ensures it doesn't interfere with that shoulder reaching contact, so that's a maybe. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 20, 2021, 06:53 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	If I understand your description correctly, yes, grinding the die mouth back would cause the mouth to get closer to the first external thread. That's what I was trying to describe. If you grind 0.017" off the standard die mouth, you should be able to set the die to size completely down to the belt. Just be aware your may also be setting the shoulder back farther than you really want to. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 17, 2021, 02:42 AM	#2
Woody'sDad Member Join Date: October 22, 2018 Posts: 22	Are you looking for Larry Willis at Innovative Technology? He makes a belted magnum die that works well for most all belted cases He is in Apopka?? Florida Just google innovative technology if so Just a shot in the dark Gary

September 17, 2021, 02:36 PM	#3
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	Woody's Dad, Not looking for Larry. It is his product I purchased many years ago. As I said, I did a posting on his product and received a response from someone who made a simple bulge buster by modifying a Weatherby 300 mag sizing die. This person sent me a photo of what he made. I kept that photo until last year but now want to see it again so I'm looking for the person who sent the photo.

September 17, 2021, 09:52 PM	#6
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	As happens many times, the initial thread topic becomes lost in replies. I don't have a problem with sizing or head space or belts because I no longer load for any belted cartridge. Just looking for a lost photo. It's simple. Thank you.

September 18, 2021, 09:23 PM	#10
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	hounddawg, if you are referring the the short die a few pages in, this is close but not quite. In this photo, forget the lower piece for a moment then look at the upper piece. It looked like this but with a clean cut at the beginning of the first screw groove. I believe his goal was to remove the smooth part below the thread grooves which would eliminate the round smooth radius (if that's the right term) at the mouth of the die. This would make the die sit directly on the belt when cycled and which would remove a bulge. I want the photo to see if I can tell exactly where he made the cut. Again, this is not for me. It's for a friend who is new to loading and who is loading 7mm Rem mag. He neck sizes only because all his brass is once fired in his rifle but still has cases fitting a bit too tight. I think his problem is bulging. Unclenik, I will search for emails but it could have been a photo attached to a reply. Thanks to both of you.

September 20, 2021, 07:25 PM	#12
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	If I wanted to size up to the belt, I would alter a full length sizing die by 1. Grind back the die mouth so the body section will reach the belt. as Unclenick says. 2. Cut the top part of the die off, leaving just enough to thread into the press so it won't set back the shoulder or taper out the front half of the body. You could probably use it for any belted cartridge.

September 20, 2021, 09:42 PM	#13
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	Unclenick, You have solved the problem. I'm gathering this information for a friend who is new to loading and who loads for 7mm Mag. Most of his cases are once fired in his rifle but occasionally, he has a few cases that won't chamber properly. He has no way to remove the bulge. He is a machinist, among other things, so he has the necessary tools to modify the barrel of a 300 Weatherby sizing die. I'm sure he will do as Jim Watson suggests and make the die just long enough to bust bulges but not size the entire case.

September 22, 2021, 05:59 PM	#14
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I added more in the other thread, about cutting the top off (removing the die shoulder if it is stopping the case from inserting far enough). You end up with a short die that de-bulges brass. You may need to take a hone to it to widen it a bit because of the body taper, but you'd find out with the first case you did that way whether it was over-resizing or not. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 22, 2021, 09:14 PM	#15
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	It has been my understanding that belted cases head space on the belt for the first time they are fired. After that they head space on the shoulder like all other bottle-neck rounds. Is that not correct? Dahermit, No, Belted Mags always headspace on the belt. __________________ Reloading For: 223R, 243W, 6.5 GR, 6.5 CM, 260R, 6.5-06, 280R, 7mmRM, 300HAM'R, 308W, 30-06, 338-06, 9mm, 357M, 41M, 44SPL, 44M, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 450BM.