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Old November 8, 2019, 12:52 PM   #26
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Gun View Post
I mentioned IMR4227 in the context of my including that for hotter 357s I use a 158 gr bullet, applicable to all bullets except maybe plated with their presumed limitations. I did not feel locked in to the OP's reference to plated 125s, with which he would be following data for those bullets, probably not including any magnum powder except maybe the versatile A2400.
....and my response was only to the question asked by the OP in his opening post, since I took it as, specifically referring to one weight of a projectile.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Poconolg View Post
Going to load 357 mag on my 650. I was given a lot of brass and 125gr plated bullets. What is a good powder to start with?

IMMR4227 likes a full case. My best experiences with it are at or just below compressed. Those types of powder charges with the OP's bullet, if Lyman's is to believed, will probably produce too much velocity for his bullets. I also stated I was referring to "my experience" with IMR4227. Not Lyman's. As I said before, with larger handgun caliber cases and heavy bullets, I have excellent results using IMR4227. I like it in .44 mag and it is my preferred powder for 300 grainers in my .460. While it doesn't give the max velocities of H110/W296, is is dam accurate. But it don't like light bullets and it likes a heavy crimp, of which I doubt the OP can give with his plated bullet. Had the OP's question been more general I probably would have not gone down the road I did. Am certainly not questioning your knowledge or experience, of which I'm sure, you have plenty.

We all like what works well for us. I like the Lyman manuals myself as they tend to give more realistic information. Like when they give IMR4227 as a "most accurate" load, it is generally with a max/compressed charge.
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Old November 8, 2019, 10:23 PM   #27
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Before you load 100's of bullets, just to find out they creep forward under recoil and tie your cylinder up, load a sample and test it. I am not a big fan of plated bullets in revolvers for this reason.
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Old November 9, 2019, 12:36 AM   #28
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Before you load 100's of bullets, just to find out they creep forward under recoil and tie your cylinder up, load a sample and test it. I am not a big fan of plated bullets in revolvers for this reason.
I'm just getting ready to start loading .357, myself. For my first batch of bullets to load, I ordered some Speer 158gr JHPs that Midway had on sale, rather than risk plated bullets, for this reason.

However, it looks like Berry's has a 158gr plated bullet with a cannelure. Am I correct that the cannelure would somewhat mitigate the risk of bullet creep that you mention?
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Old November 9, 2019, 04:02 AM   #29
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for max loads vihtavuori N110.
A fast rifle powder, good for 357/44 mag and 30 carbine.


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Old November 9, 2019, 04:47 AM   #30
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Am I correct that the cannelure would somewhat mitigate the risk of bullet creep that you mention?
Basically yes, but not all by itself. The cannelure (jacketed bullets) or crimp groove (cast bullets) is simply the place on the slug the case mouth is intended to be crimped in to. It is the friction of the bullet fit in the case and the crimp that resists the bullet "creep". (aka 'crimp jumping")

Because of the way revolvers work, with the rim of the cases held firm in the cylinder, recoil "pulls" the case back and inertia tried to keep the bullet where it is. This is the same principle used in kinetic (hammer type) bullet pullers. It just uses force in the opposite direction.

The amount of the "crimp jump force" depends on the amount of recoil vs. the weight of the bullet and what holds it in the case.

Heavy bullets want to stay where they are more than light ones (inertia). Heavy loads yank the case back away from the bullet harder than light loads. A lighter gun recoils more than a heavier one.

Proper bullet fit (neck tension) tries to keep the bullet where it belongs during recoil. A PROPER crimp adds to that. A BAD CRIMP will actually reduce the neck tension.

The advantage to plated bullets over cast is, that they are plated. The downside to plated bullets is, that they are plated. The plating is a thin cladding over the lead, and a improper or too heavy roll crimp can cut through the plating. Cutting through the plating is considered a bad thing, it might result in the bullet shedding the plating during firing.

How much crimp is enough?? How much is too much?? One needs to experiment with your individual set up. A small amount of crimp that keeps everything in place (moderate load) in a heavy gun like a S&W N frame could allow bullet jump in a light snub nose like a J frame.

What gun(s) are you going to be shooting, and are you sure those 125gr plated bullets are for .38/357 and not 9mm?? (meaning, designed for a revolver, or a semi auto?) If the bullet has a crimp groove it is intended for a revolver. If it doesn't it can still be used but there are some additional limitations and might need a slightly different technique for best results.
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Old November 9, 2019, 07:54 AM   #31
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If you crimp plated bullets with the Lee Collet crimp die you won't have any problems with cutting through the copper plating, even with a fairly stout crimp. And as long as you stay within the recommended velocity guidelines you won't have any issues with bullets creaping on you. It's that simple. As for moderate loads I've used 700X, Red Dot, Green Dot, Clays, HP38, HS-6, and Titegroup with good success. I loved Titegroup but very little is used, and one bit of negligence caused an undetected double load and cost me my favorite .357. Luckily no one was hurt, and lesson learned my procedure is now triple redundant to ensure no more boneheaded mistakes. Complacency has no place on the loading bench.
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Old November 10, 2019, 12:22 PM   #32
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Complacency has no place on the loading bench.
Truer words have never been spoken ^^.

I load a lot of plated bullets for revolver. Mostly for 38 Special; but I load X-treme's 158 SWC for 357 Magnum. It's a modest round; but still a bit stronger than 38+P. X-treme's 158 SWC has a cannelure, which would lead one to roll crimp it. And there's talk here to do so. But it has been my experience that roll crimping plated bullets - even lightly - breeches the plating.

Since I load a lot of plated bullets, I bought an RCBS taper crimp die (I bought three actually - but that's another story). I guess Lee makes a collet crimp die; and Lyman has a profile crimp die. I have no experience with either; but they likely are good choices too. BTW, if you crimp hard enough, you can breech the plating with a taper crimp too - it's just harder to do so.

A little off subject, but since I have a taper crimp die, I taper crimp my lead target wad-cutters too. There's plenty of bullet surface bearing on the case to where a crimp is hardly even necessary (much less a roll crimp); especially given the fast, easily ignited propellants being used. Taper crimping is easier on the brass.

IMO, I believe our OP needs a taper crimp die (or similar product).
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Old November 10, 2019, 09:43 PM   #33
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IMO, I believe our OP needs a taper crimp die (or similar product).
I disagree. I don't think the OP needs anything more than the standard die set and knowing how to use it.

Not saying there isn't a use for a taper crimp die or something similar, only that there isn't a need to go buy another die.

There are a lot of possible variations to loading techniques that will handle almost every combination of bullet and desired crimp. Most can be done with the standard dies and their usual roll crimp.

What the OP really needs to do, for specific help and suggestions is to tell us what gun(s) he's using, and what bullet type he actually has. "plated 125gr" can be a couple of different things. RN?, SWC? Conical?? is there a crimp groove? Or a shoulder that could be crimped over?

I've got some plated 125s that are SWC types clearly intended for revolver use. I've had other plated 125s that were RN types meant for semi autos (9mm).

Both types can be successfully used in revolvers, up to their designed speed limits, BUT the loading & crimping process is slightly different.

So, don't go out and buy this or that ..right now, tell us what you've got, and what you want to do with it. Odds are real good someone here has experience with something similar.

I've got .357 Mag DA and SA revolvers, a couple of semi autos, a single shot break action (Contender) and a Marlin carbine. Been loading .357 since the early 1970s, and I've done (or heard of) a number of oddball things. I don't doubt there other folks here with even larger experience bases. TO give you good specific answers, we need good specific information. Give us that, odds are good we'll have something useful for you.
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Old November 11, 2019, 09:01 AM   #34
buck460XVR
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I don't think the OP needs anything more than the standard die set and knowing how to use it.

Not saying there isn't a use for a taper crimp die or something similar, only that there isn't a need to go buy another die.
I agree, altho if he, like Nick_C_S, finds he's shooting a lot of plated bullets, a taper crimp die may be a useful tool.

A roll crimp die can be adjusted to put very little to no crimp on a case, only to take the flare out. Basically what a taper crimp die does. With enough neck tension and not trying to get max velocities, neck tension may be enough on it own. Even with a roll crimp die and jacketed bullets with a cannelure, I see no need to put a heavy roll crimp and work harder cases any more than necessary. With heavy bullets, with hefty powder charges of slow burning powders a heavy roll crimp into a cannelure is needed. Nor only to keep the bullets from jumping crimp, but to assist with the ignition/burn of the slow burning powders.

As I said before, .357 is a very easy and a very forgiving caliber to reload. That doesn't mean one can be careless or have sloppy reloading technique. Keeping his appropriate powder and it's charge to below 1200 FPS per any reputable manual and using just enough crimp to take out the flare, the OP should be just fine.
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Old November 11, 2019, 11:45 AM   #35
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Keeping his appropriate powder and it's charge to below 1200 FPS per any reputable manual and using just enough crimp to take out the flare, the OP should be just fine.
Probably. But possibly not, if there's no crimp at all, and he's shooting a very light weight revolver. It's easy enough to check. Load a dozen rounds or so, put six in the gun, shoot 5. Measure the unfired round. Repeat using the same unfired round and measure again. If the round shows no bullet movement, you have "enough" crimp

Did a test, ages ago with .38s, shot uncrimped from a 6" S&W M 28 and a Colt 2" Agent. No movement in the S&W tiny amount in the snub nose. .357 loads should follow the same principles though the amount of recoil force will be increased. What works for the minimum amount of crimp/neck tension needed to prevent bullet jump in a heavy revolver MAY not be enough in a very light revolver. Each situation is going to be slightly different, and you need to find out just what is needed, with what you are using.

My method is old school (aka crude) but has never failed me. I tighten the seater die crimp shoulder to a hand firm contact with the crimp of a factory loaded round. I may be "overcrimping" but in over a lot of rounds since the early 70s, I've never had any bullet jump crimp.
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Old November 11, 2019, 11:50 AM   #36
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I has been about 10 years since I was loading plated bullets (Berry's), but from what I remember (take with a grain of salt) I got the best accuracy and overall performance by setting my expander die so it just belled the case mouth enough to get the bullet started, then set my crimper to straighten out the case and just turn the mouth in enough to barely bite into but not cut thru the copper plating.
That's with a taper crimp or a roll crimp die, whichever the die set came with, because I was using them in both 9mm and .38 Special.
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Old November 12, 2019, 10:00 PM   #37
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As I've said, I have loaded plated since the 90's. A few take aways.

Not all plated are the same. Ref. Speer Gold Dot and UniCore vs everthing else.

Accura / Xtreme (the brand I have the most experiene with) vs. Ranier yielded VERY different results. I have driven Xtreme FAR harder than Rainiers with far better accuracy.

Only the old school Accurate Arms Powder performed pressure testing with Rainier Bullets and that data is no longer found on the web BUT is in Lee #2.

As was stated when AA and Rainier teamed up to perform their pressure tested data: Plated bullllets are neither fish nor fowl. They are a rule unto their own.
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Old November 15, 2019, 01:06 PM   #38
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Ranier closed their doors this year, unfortunately. Berry's and X-treme are probably the nationally best-known brands still in business. A number of companies have put thin copper plating on ordinary cast bullets in the past, but like copper plating on a .22 rimfire bullet, it doesn't change the load needed from those used with plain lead. So, how thick the plating is affects how the bullet should be treated.
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Old November 15, 2019, 01:32 PM   #39
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I reload the 357 magnum and use H110 or W296, but I wouldn't recommend that powder with plated bullets. I only use jacketed bullets. I don't believe the plating will hold up to well at 125 grain velocities. Good luck.
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Old November 15, 2019, 05:22 PM   #40
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I reload the 357 magnum and use H110 or W296, but I wouldn't recommend that powder with plated bullets.
But Speer in fact does just that. I've successfully done the same with Xtreme. As I've said more than once....not all plated are the same.
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Old November 16, 2019, 05:42 PM   #41
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It gets used with lead bullets frequently, too. People forget that Elmer Keith and his collaborators developed the .357 and .44 Magnums with lead bullets. H110/296, being a cooler burning spherical powder that gets a lot of its velocity from keeping post-peak bore pressure up, actually has lower peak pressure than some of the 2400 loads Keith worked with. It is peak pressure and not velocity that causes bullet distortion and stripping.
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Old November 17, 2019, 09:36 AM   #42
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I generally don't bother with "downloading" but as of late my wife has taken a solid interest liking to shooting my Ruger GP100 357 mag. She also is intimidated shooting full house loads so I actually load "his and hers" loads for the 357. My full house "his" load is a 158 heavy plated RNFP , 16.5 gr of H110 @ about 1260 fps My happy "hers" is the same bullet but with 11.2 of 2400 and that's about 1010 fps. I don't like shooting .38's out of my 357 so this is why I d/l 357 cases. Rule #1 with respect to your significant other "Happy wife, happy life" !

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.
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Old November 17, 2019, 09:55 AM   #43
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Your H110 load would be above max, according to Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Others might copy your load with some caution. Hodgdon data doesn't refer us to lead bullets with H110 or 296.
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Old November 17, 2019, 10:35 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Gun
Your H110 load would be above max, according to Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Others might copy your load with some caution. Hodgdon data doesn't refer us to lead bullets with H110 or 296.


Thanks for pointing this out. I actually use this H110 load for both hard cast SWC's and The Berry's plated 158 FPTP with excellent results. I added the required disclaimer to my post. Per Lyman's 49th i'm actually under the max for the FMJ data.
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Old November 19, 2019, 09:14 PM   #45
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I have been pleased with BE86 after chronographing it and tweaking the load a little
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnVlPxAyRCQ&t=603s
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