Pulling the trigger straight back . . .

[9x45]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Interesting. For context:

What sort of accuracy are you achieving at 10 yards slapping the trigger on a typical DAO pistol?
What modifications, if any, have been done to the triggers?
What's your shooting experience level?
How many rounds do you fire a year?

Doubles at every match, 12 yards and out, while moving.
My Glocks are stock.
Shoot a USPSA match at least 4 times a month.
About 15,000 to 18,000 rounds a year.

How about you? G31 running full house 125 grain going about 1,420 fps

Like this

[JohnKSa]

That's very impressive shooting. Even at the experience level you have and with the amount of shooting you're doing, there aren't many people who can shoot that well on the move, let alone with an unmodified DAO pistol, full power loads and using a trigger "slapping" technique.

How about you?

I'm not that good by a long shot. In fact, I'm not sure that I've ever seen anyone who is that good. You should definitely look into getting a company sponsor.

[9x45]

John, thank you, but honestly there are thousands and thousands of USPSA competitors who are far better. To get big sponsors you have to travel to several Level II matches and Nationals every year, and practice at least 2,000 rounds a month (just drills). I only shoot to stay proficient for CCW and to lower my blood pressure.

Here is what we do every weekend, not including Steel Challenge, 3 gun and rifle matches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJKKt_1T_oI

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

That's very impressive shooting.

Indeed. Well done.

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

there aren't many people who can shoot that well...using a trigger "slapping" technique.

Seems a clarification is needed here: The term "slapping" has never implied poor trigger control. It simply means the shooter get their finger off the trigger on it's return, allowing it to fully reset, rather than riding the trigger forward just enough to allow the sear to reengage. The former's been shown to be faster, which is why the big dogs in speed games like USPSA and Steel Challenge are "trigger slappers".

[JohnKSa]

The term "slapping" has never implied poor trigger control. It simply means the shooter get their finger off the trigger on it's return, allowing it to fully reset, rather than riding the trigger forward just enough to allow the sear to reengage. The former's been shown to be faster, which is why the big dogs in speed games like USPSA and Steel Challenge are "trigger slappers".

I'm familiar with the term and the technique. It's certainly true that at the higher levels, particularly shooters (the "big dogs" as you say) using light SA triggers, it's not uncommon to see the technique used to good effect. It's also true that once you get out of that rarified atmosphere of the top levels of competition and start looking at people who shoot unmodified DAO triggers it's much less common and generally used with much less impressive results.

...there are thousands and thousands of USPSA competitors who are far better...

I think you're underestimating your stated abilities.

Do you really believe that there are "thousands and thousands" of shooters who can frequently shoot touching doubles, while on the move, at ranges past 10 yards, shooting full-power .357SIG ammo, and with a stock DAO pistol?

[9x45]

Again John, thank you, but age and mileage have taken a toll on me. Psoriatic and Osteosis arthritis, 40% loss of color vision, can't see holes beyond 7 yards, too many motorcycle crashes, it all adds up against 20-40 year old Grand Masters. Ok, so maybe for Limited Major 9, a few hundred, but only because it really hasn’t caught on yet against 40S&W major with the same magazine capacity. A 200 grain 40 going 825fps is much more manageable than a 125 grain going 1,400fps. And because the way USPSA scoring works, ie, hit factor (HF) = points earned divided by time. So for example, a 10 target stage, worth 100 points, say from a static box, hoser stage, no movement, no reloads, I run 10 seconds and score 100 points, therefore a HF of 10. But the GM runs 5 seconds with 4 mikes and only earns 60 points (10 points down for each miss). However his fit factor is 60/5 = 12. So even though he has misses, he gets the highest HF, and he takes 100% of the stage points but I only earn 10/12’s of that, or 83 points, instead of the 100 I scored. Division stage winner takes all in USPSA. Now throw in a long field course, worth 160 points, with lots of movement and difficult shooting positions, the separation becomes even larger. Speed is rewarded.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

I'm familiar with the term and the technique.

My clarification was mainly directed generally.

It seems a popular misconception that, to go fast, one just wails on the trigger, control be damned. The term "slapping" can easily be misconstrued by some to support that idea.

[TXAZ]

I'm more consistent when I put 2 fingers on the trigger.
My left trigger finger is actually on the trigger and my right is on top of the left trigger finger. I pull with both fingers.
Vertical accuracy is a little better but horizontal is much improved.

[9x45]

TXAZ, in 48 years of different types of pistol competition, I have never heard of, seen that technique. Could you post a pic of what 2 triggers look like? Sounds really dangerous.

[James K]

It is a pretty common technique for firing DA when one has weak fingers, but usually the fingers are reversed, so the right (or strong hand) finger is on the trigger and the left finger helps and supports it. There are not two triggers, of course, but two fingers pulling the same trigger.

(The old Cold Double Action Army (Model 1878) had such a hard DA pull that when the Army bought some, they requested a longer trigger for greater leverage and so two fingers could be used, in that case the index and middle finger of the same hand.)

Jim

[9x45]

Trigger slapping Triple! At today's local USPSA match classifier. Stage description, from Box A, facing up-range, turn, hands above, engage T1-T2-T3, at 10 yards out, 2 yards apart, with 2 rounds each, Virginia count, no extra shots. String 2, facing downrange, hands below, engage same. Center A zone half covered by a no-shoot, so I decide to shoot the heads for practice, no big rock on the prize table today. Most of the crew went for center A zones, and took lots of C's, D's and mikes. They were running low 3's. I ran 5.2 and 4.5. Keep in mind I can't see the hits beyond about 5 yards, so I have a slow run. But I walk up to the targets, and there it is. Grip it and Rip works, get to your nearest USPSA match and try it. It's all about gun handling, speed and accuracy. Plus it's tons of fun!

[JohnKSa]

I ran 5.2 and 4.5.

Just back of the envelope, I'd guess about 0.7 seconds for the turn on the first string which gets the two numbers in agreement. Again, guessing, let's say 1.5 seconds on the draw leaving 3.0 seconds to shoot four shots. Four shots is three intervals so that works out to one second splits.

At what point do you find that shooting from the reset is no longer adequate and it's necessary to transition to the "trigger slap" technique to achieve the additional desired speed?

[Deaf Smith]

Prof,

You are wrong on #3.

Deaf

[johnwilliamson062]

Take up golf.

Funny, reverse that and it is how I ended up shooting

Watch the sights for movement. And don't pick the best trigger in the safe for this kind of practice. I pick the worst I have--it makes the others seem very easy to control properly in comparison.

You can't beat a Nagant revolver! Really, that is what I recommend. Designed about 20# DA and 10# single action, but I swear a few I've handled were 1.5 times that. One I could hardly pull with one finger. If you learn to shoot an unmodified Nagant trigger in DA you will be able to handle any trigger with ease.

At what point do you find that shooting from the reset is no longer adequate and it's necessary to transition to the "trigger slap" technique to achieve the additional desired speed?

Why wait until you hit that point? Get every fraction of a second you can at every level, even the non-competing level. Especially if it isn't going to cost you anything and I don't see how switching to that method will cost anywhere else.

I have never been a high precision shooter and a group that I can cover with my fist has always been good enough.

Yeah, me too.

A trigger can definitely be pulled straight back.

[9x45]

John, Four shots is three intervals so that works out to one second splits.

There were 3 targets in this classifier, T1-T2-T3 at 10 yards, as described, string one, 2 on each Virginia count, string two on each, for a total of 12 rounds, 4 hits per target. For string one, 6 rounds in 3 seconds, the splits are .5, which is slow, and I said it was slow. It's more shooting B zone plates, 1/3 the width and 1/4 the height of a full target. The crew was pushing .35 splits on the body and taking D's, mikes and not shoots. Now if it were full targets, like El Prez, yea, .25 splits would be about right. And full targets would be more like Smoke and Hope from the Steel Challenge, you only need to be on the white.

At what point do you find that shooting from the reset is no longer adequate and it's necessary to transition to the "trigger slap" technique to achieve the additional desired speed?

I never shoot from reset, but have watched lots of shooters running steel stages, and it takes much longer.

[JohnKSa]

There were 3 targets in this classifier...

Yup, not sure how I missed that, you said it plain as day.

Why wait until you hit that point? Get every fraction of a second you can at every level, even the non-competing level. Especially if it isn't going to cost you anything and I don't see how switching to that method will cost anywhere else.

If it costs nothing, that would make perfect sense. I'm still sort of wrestling with conflicting information and experience and trying to make sense of the apparent contradictions.

So on the one hand I see people like Rob Leatham shooting light & short trigger guns using a trigger slap approach and getting very good results. But then just yesterday I watched footage of Rob shooting in a revolver match and he was clearly keeping his finger in contact with the trigger the whole time--as were the other top competitors.

I watch Jerry Miculek talking about how he tries to never lose contact with the trigger and watch his videos which show that is how he actually shoots. Another guy who seems to know a thing or two about DA style (longer, heavier pull) triggers.

So I try to put that together and what I get is that the trigger slap technique seems to work well with light and short triggers, but that even the guys who do seem to use it for light and short triggers go back to some sort of a trigger reset technique when shooting DA style triggers.

So input from someone who claims to be able to shoot a trigger slap technique on a DA style trigger is interesting. The first thing to figure out is what kind of speed is possible with a DA style trigger using this technique without sacrificing accuracy.

[9x45]

True, a short light reset trigger on a 1911 has an advantage for static shooting, like Bullseye, but action pistol is quite different, as are revolvers. When I used to shoot ICORE with S&W 625", not the JM model, you never do really let off the trigger. But for DA semi autos that's how we run. Bob Vogel has been kicking everyone's ass running Glocks, and he started with an STI. It's all about a flash sight picture and trigger prep. However, for pure speed, the wheel gun is faster because you control the speed, not the gun.

The Vogel sayeth

For me the trigger on a Glock is actually a plus. With the double action type trigger it allows for more of a “surprise break” type shot. This has allowed me to shoot more aggressively and has made trigger freeze less of an issue. I will admit that before switching to Glocks I had to set aside a number of preconceived notions that I had about them. This was easily done by concentrating on the only thing that really mattered to me: The results.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

So on the one hand I see people like Rob Leatham shooting light & short trigger guns using a trigger slap approach and getting very good results. But then just yesterday I watched footage of Rob shooting in a revolver match and he was clearly keeping his finger in contact with the trigger the whole time--as were the other top competitors.

I watch Jerry Miculek talking about how he tries to never lose contact with the trigger and watch his videos which show that is how he actually shoots. Another guy who seems to know a thing or two about DA style (longer, heavier pull) triggers.

AFAIK, "slapping" doesn't necessarily mean the finger physically comes off the trigger - just that the trigger's allowed to come fully forward on the return.

DA revos are a bit different. The DA sear doesn't re-engage until the trigger's 99% forward. DA shooters technically "slap" by allowing the trigger on it's own to fully re-set (even when their finger's still in contact with the trigger), as opposed to letting the trigger push your finger forward. The latter's a bad habit and will bite you eventually with a short-stroke (the cylinder turns, but the hammer doesn't lift) or a binding of the action (the hand pushes the cylinder, but the trigger hasn't even come forward far enough to re-engage the stop bolt).

JM's a special case - he's been credited with claiming he runs a stronger rebound spring because he otherwise outruns a stock spring. This, IMO, is likely a little brand marketing nonsense, though. Ed McGivern, using a pretty stock revolver, has the record for 5 shots, and JM's never beaten that record, which means a stock trigger returns faster than JM's finger. I strongly suspect the reason JM uses a strong rebound spring is he does let the trigger push his finger fully forward, and a stronger rebound spring gets around the short-stroke. He's got power a'plenty in that trigger finger of his, so he gets away with it, and it obviously works for him. He does a number of things differently than many other really excellent revo shooters.

[JohnKSa]

AFAIK, "slapping" doesn't necessarily mean the finger physically comes off the trigger - just that the trigger's allowed to come fully forward on the return.

Leatham does actually advocate bringing the finger all the way off the trigger, at least on guns with light, short triggers. The video 9x45 linked to earlier shows him using that technique.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-t...ger-technique/

Jarrett and Leatham use a “sweeping” trigger finger motion—literally lifting their finger fully off the trigger between shots. As Leatham explained to me after quickly downing five steel plates, “Everyone slaps the trigger at close range, but it’s the best way to do the long range shooting, too.”

The DA <revolver> sear doesn't re-engage until the trigger's 99% forward.

I understand that. A finger off the trigger approach would certainly work with that kind of trigger--but you don't see it being done by people who know what they're doing.

I'm not arguing against the slap technique in the context I see the experts advocate it--experts shooting guns with light, short triggers.

[9x45]

John, what gun do you run in USPSA? There is a slight difference in technique between a Glock, CZ, M&P, Xd's and 1911's.

[johnwilliamson062]

I'm going to have to dig out my Kahr T9 and see where it resets. Been a long long time since I felt it.

[9x45]

Here was the classifier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lndfj674FVg