S&W Model 64 vs. 686

[Julius Caesar]

I have a S&W Model 64 (38 Spc. +p) and a S&W Shield 9mm, both purchased new within the past year. I bought the 64 because I wanted a revolver and it was a good deal. The Shield was an impulse buy. I love the Model 64, have shot about 200 rounds through it in the year I have owned it.

I would like a .357 magnum, and have been eyeing a 686, but they are expensive. Around $700 and up from what I have seen. A few questions, I know that the .357 is more powerful than a 38 Spc., but are there any real world benefits to owning one over the 64? I mainly use the gun for range fun, although I keep it locked away in case of a home invader. I have read that the +p 38 Spc. is pretty powerful. I don't plan on hunting with the revolver, so don't know if I really need the extra punch of a 357.

If I tried to trade both the 64 and the Shield at a retail store like Cabelas, do you think I would get a good deal? I bought the Shield thinking I would conceal carry, but I am beginning to think if I were to CC, I would want a smaller gun like a 380 ACP.

[laytonj1]

Considering most people with 357’s shoot 38 specials out of them anyway, I would keep the model 64. 357 is a great caliber but full power ammo is hard on the gun and shooter compared to shooting 38 special.
As far as trading in guns to Cabela’s, or any gun / pawn shop, you will only get about half of what you paid, at best. You would be far better off selling guns yourself like on Armslist.
You already have a couple of nice guns. Why not hold on to them and save up for a 686.

Jim

[Carmady]

The S&W K-frame Model 65 is like a Model 64, but in .357 instead of .38. You might like that.

[Buzzcook]

What do you want the gun for? That might help you decide.

The K frame M64 is a bit smaller than the L frame M686. They have the same grip size afaik, the difference is in the rest of the frame.

.357 is better at putting holes through hard things. One of the reasons it was developed was to better shoot through car windows. Accuracy is about the same. Most people tend to think follow up shots with the slower .38sp are easier.
Modern bullets and powers make .38 performance better than in the past, but the same is true of .357.
If you're thinking of hunting check your state regulations.

[105kw]

I prefer a K frame over the L frame.
Personal preference only.

In my opinion keep the model 64, it's a good defense gun, and lighter.
Even in .38 Special it is still effective.
Practice, and if you want to go to a larger frame gun, find a range that rents and try one.

[Model12Win]

The 125 grain .357 magnum hollow point is FAR more powerful and effective than any .38 special load. It has a one-stop-shot rating of something like 98% and has a reputation for excellent stopping power and was called "The King of the Streets" as it were.

The .38 special was considered anemic by comparison and with the old RNL loads was dubbed "The Widow Maker" since cops were dying since the criminals they were shooting at did not go down fast enough, though things did improve somewhat with the FBI load (158 grain hollow point).

So "King of the Street" compared to "The Widow Maker", make your choice.

[HighValleyRanch]

The 125 grain .357 magnum hollow point is FAR more powerful and effective than any .38 special load.

Winchester X 125 grain .357 is 125 grains at 1450 (4" barrel) = 584 ft. lbs. ME.
Buffalobore .38 special +P LSWCHP is 158 grains at 1162 fps (4" barrel) = 474 ft. lbs. ME. (Like the old FBI LOAD which had a good stopping ratio)

Now shoot both out of a 3" barrel, and they get might get closer in ratio, since the BB load was chronoed at 1143 out of a 3" barrel equalling 458 ft. lbs. ME.

A more fair comparison for someone considering .38 +P vs. .357
And yes of course you can get hotter .357 but why for SD?
Risking over penatration.
It's more for 4 legged protection.

[Ibmikey]

As indicated above the 64, 65, and 66 are all K frames which I personally prefer over the larger and heavier L frame pistols. I have all three, 64 4”, 65 3” and 66 (benefits greatly from having adjustable sights and a lug under barrel for a little more weight) primarily shoot .38 specials in them, even when I carried a 19 back in the dark ages I loaded it with .38 Super Vel ammunition. Keep the 64 and enjoy.

[Model12Win]

We can compare hottest to hottest but the .357 will still smoke out the .38.

I do agree the Buff Bore .38 load mentioned would be excellent, and the FBI load does have a good reputation.

But as good as the "King of the Street"?

No.

[FotoTomas]

In some cases the .38 is much better than the "King of the Street". The magnum power is wasted if you miss. The .38 is vastly superior when it comes to controllability. So much so that I chose the .38 FBI load for my S&W Model 19 Combat Magnum for duty use many years ago.

I shoot a lot and I still compete and carry revolvers often in this age of plastic wonder nines. The .357 Magnum is more powerful and much harder to control without extensive practice. For the casual shooter the .38 is a much better choice.

[HighValleyRanch]

alot of that "King of the Street" data is from old times, before the new developments of better .38 ammo.
Here's a link to some real time gel test data on comparison of modern .38 loads vs. .357 done by Lucky gunner:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

I also liked the gel tests and reviews for the Federal HST .38 +P.
They are like wadcutter rounds on steroids!

[223 shooter]

I know that the .357 is more powerful than a 38 Spc., but are there any real world benefits to owning one over the 64? I mainly use the gun for range fun

Even if you only fired 38s all the time having a revolver with adjustable sights like with the 686 is a feature I like for range use. With the wide variety of bullet weights and power levels available with the 38 or 357 being able to adjust the sights to hit to the point of aim is nice.

And don't rule out the K-Frame that was already mentioned - I have a couple of Smith 66s and they are a great choice as well.

[Julius Caesar]

Thanks for the feedback. I figured that the Model 64 is probably fine for any purpose I would really need, and I really like the size and feel of the gun. It is not too bulky, but big enough to feel like like a full gun and not a small snub nose (not that those are bad).

One question though, a 686 is a L frame, right? I know that S&W makes some .357s in the K frame, like the Model 66. An employee at Cabelas told me that the S&W K frames in .357 tend to wear out more quickly than the L frames. Is that true?

[mikejonestkd]

An employee at Cabelas told me that the S&W K frames in .357 tend to wear out more quickly than the L frames. Is that true?

Sorta.....An L frame will have a more robust frame than a K frame, a thicker web around the larger forcing cone, which will most likely last longer if you feed the revolver a steady diet of full power loads.

For most shooters that use 38 specials 90% of the time and an occasional cylinder of 357 mag for the fun of it it does not make much of a difference.

[gwpercle]

Keep the model 64 , excellent nightstand , plinking and informal target shooting gun.
You will shoot many more rounds of 38 special having fun. Mine is so accurate I mounted a red dot sight and use it for NRA Bullseye Match Competition.

If you want a 357 magnum get a new model 66, K-frame , 357 magnum with adjustable sights. Whatever you do hang onto the 64.
Gary

[FotoTomas]

Just to expand on what Mike said...

When the K frame was built for .357 Magnum in the fifties it was at a time where most cops practiced and qualified with .38 Special and then loaded .357 Magnum for duty. The most common magnum duty round in the beginning was a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter bullet. It was very easy on the K frames of the day, routinely hit the same point of aim due to the similar bullet weights though it did pack a punch.

in the late sixties and into the seventies cops started to qualify with the magnum ammo and hotter high performance magnum ammo was often the preferred duty round. These 125 grain jacketed hollowpoints were real screamers and they also accelerated wear on the revolvers that fired them. As a result the K frame magnums started to have some maintenance issues. Smith and Wesson brought out the L frame to solve this problem. The slightly larger and stronger frame but with the smaller K frame grip became very popular as the goto cop revolver prior to the "Great Change" to autos in the 90's.

Today I still prefer my S&W Model 19 Combat Magnum revolvers to any L frame due to balance and familiarity. I also rarely carry them anymore and mostly shoot .38 Specials in them when I do. Occasional magnums are fine but I would stay away from a steady diet of them in the K frame revolvers.

[amd6547]

I like the 38spl just fine. With the right ammo and a four inch barrel, it will do just fine.
Sometimes, I load up my Model 10 or my Model 15 with Remington 158gn swchp +P for home defense duty, and I feel well armed.
However, the revolver that gets picked most often is the GP100 3” loaded with Hornady Critical Defense 357mag 125gn . In fact...it’s on duty here tonight.

[Buzzcook]

An employee at Cabelas told me that the S&W K frames in .357 tend to wear out more quickly than the L frames. Is that true?

Yes and no, was is the active word there. The earlier K= frames did have a torching problem with hot .357 loads. Later S&W did a redesign that helped the problem. Hopefully someone with more expertise than I will fill in the details or correct me if I'm wrong.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Julius Caesar

If I tried to trade both the 64 and the Shield at a retail store like Cabelas, do you think I would get a good deal? I bought the Shield thinking I would conceal carry, but I am beginning to think if I were to CC, I would want a smaller gun like a 380 ACP.

Sounds like to me, you need to trade the Shield for a .380 and just keep the 64. From what you tell us, the 64 is already doing everything you want and need from a revolver.

[Tom Servo]

The earlier K= frames did have a torching problem with hot .357 loads.

The majority of the forcing cone cracks appeared to happen during a time when the ultra-light, ultra-fast loads like the 110gr Super Vels were the big thing. While the flat spot on the bottom can be an issue, I've never seen or heard of cracks appearing with 158gr bullets. While I've seen 125gr ammunition blamed, most of those stories are from the 1980s. Modern factory ammunition is loaded to lower pressures.

I've personally run ~3500 rounds of 125gr Magnums or more through a couple of my older K-Frames, and I've never seen any erosion or cracks. That's not to say it can't happen, but you really have to push your loads or the round count quite a bit for it to be an issue.

[T. O'Heir]

"...think I would get a good deal..." Nope. Dunno if Cabela's even does trades, but dealers base what they give as a trade in value(or buying the thing) on their wholesale price and how fast they think they can sell it.
Generally, you're better off selling the thing privately. Or putting it in a shop on consignment. That's the dealer selling it for you and taking a predetermined fee. Usually a percentage.
"...but they are expensive..." Used is not an ugly word when it comes to firearms. It takes a lot of abuse to damage a modern revolver. However, that revolver or pistol must fit your hand.
"...if I were to CC..." You want a firearm you can shoot well. Size doesn't matter, but most .380's have crappy sights(if it has a sight) and lousy triggers. Factory triggers don't matter as all new firearms require a trigger job. Easier to do that on a revolver or larger pistol.

[AK103K]

If you feel the need to sell them off to get something else, find someone who wants the gun and do a private sale, or put it up for consignment at your favorite dealer. The later is usually easier, as they have a steady flow of possible buyers, and they are motivated to sell the gun, and at the best price, as the more they get, the more they make. Most places Ive dealt with get a 15% fee.

The 64 is a good gun, and Id hang onto it and learn to shoot it properly. Id do that before I moved up to 357mag.

I have a number of S&W .38's and 357's, one of which is a police trade in DAO 64. Great shooter and easy to shoot well with.

While 357mag is more powerful, the .38's will work well too, especially if youre capable with them. I think to many people get all caught up in the marketing of the "magic bullets", and expect they will make up for their shortcomings. They wont.

I practice with 158 grain LSWC's and would have no problem using them for serious things. They would likely over penetrate, but they are accurate and will do the job if they are placed appropriately. Thats why we practice regularly and realistically too.

I wouldnt go selling or trading off what you have, to go down to a 380. If you want a gun for carry, you want a "realistic" gun you shoot well with. Dont let size of the gun drive your choices. With little effort, you can carry pretty much anything. Carrying a gun you dont shoot well with simply because its easier to carry, makes no sense to me. Its not a fashion accessory.

Handguns require more effort to be proficient with as it is, why make things worse, with guns that are harder to shoot well with?

Factory triggers don't matter as all new firearms require a trigger job.

Sounds like an ad for a gunsmith.

Contrary to what was stated above, I have yet to come across a "bad" factory trigger, in anything I can remember, over about 50 years now.

Now if youre "trigger phobic", and a "trigger worrier", perhaps thats the case. Like the "magic bullets", trigger jobs are basically a mental fix for a lack of skill.

Learn to shoot that 64 DAO using its factory trigger, and Ill guarantee you, youll be able to shoot pretty much anything you pick up without thought or issue.

Insist on not being able to shoot anything without a trigger job, and youll always be right, and a lot poorer.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Cabelas will hose you big time on a trade or sell. Keep what you have. You probably don't need a 686. HOWEVER, "need" is often not the issue. It's hard to find someone who knows much about revolvers that will say a bad word about a 686. It is a great gun. I much prefer it to a 64 (still nothing wrong with a 64). The out of the box factory trigger will likely be outstanding albeit a bit heavy. All you have to do is buy and install a lighter rebound/trigger return spring (<$10). Easy job, just watch a few youtube videos for direction. So keep what you have and save your nickels for a 686! At least that's what I'd do. Good luck!

[Sgt127]

Honestly. I’m a gun guy. I carry a Wilson Master Grade .45 I had built in 1990 or so. I have lots of guns. I would, very happily, be “stuck” with a good K Frame .38 for the rest of my life and feel perfectly OK.

As a matter of fact, I often carry a 3” 65 or a Ruger Speed Six in .357 Magnum quite often.

There is nothing. Nothing wrong with a good .38 loaded with good rounds. Buffalo Bore makes .38 rounds that are knocking on the door of .357 Magnum. Unless you practice a bunch, a K frame .357 gets old, fast.

Accuracy and follow up trumps raw horsepower. A good .38 allows both.

[shurshot]

FYI on Cabelas... as an example, a few years back, I took in a mint SW 3913TSW 9mm that cost about $900.00 New, to Cabelas to see what they would offer during their "Gun Show" weekend. Nice gun, but I didn't like the "Rail". Brand new in the box mind you.... they offered $180 cash or $225 in store credit. Insulting to say the least. I walked and later sold it to an Attorney I knew for $550.00. I would NEVER waste my time even considering trading / selling a gun to Cabelas again. They do have some deals on new guns and used guns, but pertaining to trades / selling, I would advise no. I understand there is a profit to be made, etc., and a new gun loses value, however their overhead / profit margin is SO high, they cannot give what I consider to be a fair trade. Nothing wrong with a hot .38 spl round. I have an old Police trade in model 10 HB (blue version of the 64), super accurate.