Rifle Load Development

[baddarryl]

Hi all. I have multiple thoughts and questions. I am sure some of this may be redundant, but some I feel are specific to me or may not come up in more general queries. I am comfortable loading 9mm for pistol on my Lee Classic Turret press. I have only loaded a few boxes and am working things out, what works what doesn't having to do mostly with my process.

I am going to start loading 5.56/.223 for 3 different rifles. I intend to develop a load for each rifle. After that I will load for my Garand. One is an AR carbine that as long as is combat accurate will be fine. My CZ 527 and RR National Match I will eventually be going after accuracy. Likely extremely good eventually as I plan to get into NRA Hi Power with the RR. I understand that much more will be revealed there! With that basis here are my questions:

1. As far as random mixed range brass how to do you sort and group them? I know by head stamp, but also do you go by case weight and volume? I also have some chamber formed brass from my rifles which I know will be best. I plan to use a collet die on those and fully resize any random brass until it has been fired in my rifles. How extreme do you get as far as good enough for plinking, accurate and match accurate?

2. Recommend a Chronograph please

3. Recommend a Spotting Scope please. For now one for my development. Ill worry about Hi Power when I get there.

4. With the plethora of powders, bullets and loads out that do you just search on what people are using in their rifles as a starting point? Verified in loading books of course.

5. I am assuming best to focus on one rifle at a time?

6. What do you guy do to load at the range if you can?

7. I know I can load rifle on the Turret press but I have read a lot about the benefits of a single stage for it. Anything to it? Seems like more precision is possible maybe. Can I stick with Lee for that since I already have dies and all kinds of stuff that I like.

Thank you all so much. I am sure I will have more, but that will do it for now. Thanks again.

[kilotanker22]

I do like single stage. Although I believe that a turret press could be used for all but the most accurate match loads. Maybe it doesn't matter, but I like to think the rigidity of a good single stage is more consistent than a turret.

As far as brass, I don't use range brass. Normally when I buy a new rifle I also buy some factory ammunition to foul the barrel and fire form cases to my chamber. Then reload them.

I am a fan of either full length sizing or partially sizing brass. Generally I use a full length die and just don't quite set the shoulder all the way back to minimum. Usually setting the shoulder back .002-.003".

My favorite chronograph is the Magnetospeed line. IMO you won't find an easier chronograph to set up and use. The down side is that you can't really shoot for groups while using one. So when I load test, I load a set for a group and another set for obtaining velocity.

For the .223 Varget or CFE 223 would be great powders to start with. Also bullet wise I really love Sierra and Hornady. Across all my firearms I basically use those two brands exclusively. There are many great choices that's just what seems to work for me. In .223 for plinking though something like the Berry's plated bullets would be a good choice. Even for hunting rodents and such. Those bullets tend to shoot pretty good. Also the Match Monster bullets from Midsouth Shooters Supply shoot pretty well in .308.

It is ok to work up loads for more than one gun at a time, but be sure to keep the ammunition separate and keep good detailed notes.

I have a set of notes for each rifle I own. And within them I keep accuracy and velocity data for each load. I also keep notes for each rifle and bullet with maximum CBTO measurements so I can just look in the book to determine where my seating depth will put me in relation to the lands. Every few hundred rounds I will measure again to track throat erosion.

[baddarryl]

Thanks. I forgot to mention that I picked up some Accurate 2230 and SIERRA 77 hpbt to start with today. I also have some factory PMC I can shoot up for fire formed brass. The only thing I intend to run range brass in is the Carbine I think. Here is what I have so far:

[Nathan]

1. As far as random mixed range brass how to do you sort and group them? I know by head stamp, but also do you go by case weight and volume? I also have some chamber formed brass from my rifles which I know will be best. I plan to use a collet die on those and fully resize any random brass until it has been fired in my rifles. How extreme do you get as far as good enough for plinking, accurate and match accurate?

2. Recommend a Chronograph please

3. Recommend a Spotting Scope please. For now one for my development. Ill worry about Hi Power when I get there.

4. With the plethora of powders, bullets and loads out that do you just search on what people are using in their rifles as a starting point? Verified in loading books of course.

5. I am assuming best to focus on one rifle at a time?

6. What do you guy do to load at the range if you can?

7. I know I can load rifle on the Turret press but I have read a lot about the benefits of a single stage for it. Anything to it? Seems like more precision is possible maybe. Can I stick with Lee for that since I already have dies and all kinds of stuff that I like.

1) By headstamp....that is all the farther I got....you can get good groups un sorted 1.5” in AR15. Sorted could get you under an inch or at least be the foundation.....new brass of one make, lot, same number of firings is best....better than best is when it says Lapua on the head!

I FL size in good setups giving me 0.002” or better neck runout. So better to buy something like the RCBS Case Master, Hornady comparator, etc and learn how to use them than buying reloading stuff by guessing. Lots to tweak with those tools.

That is how I learned basic Hornady dies are pretty dang good.....and my die of choice.

2) Labradar makes the best. You want superb accuracy, ability to get some stats from it, measure pistol, no poi change, no bad lighting issues? Labradar. Otherwise Shooting Chrony makes a pretty good one. I have a beta master in serviceable condition for you to try/buy .....pm me.

3) For 100 yards, a decent 25x spotter will let you see lots of bullet holes. You might rather spend your spotting scope money on a target camera....the 2mi one is only $700. A decent spotter is often $300-$500....good is over $1000.

4) List up what you want the load to do...For my 6.5x55, I chose H4831SC. I looked at the range of burn rates in the manuals....several of them...I wanted max velocity, temperature stability and the ability to work up over boom loads for a modern rifle....H4831SC, 6.5 StaBALL, R17, and R23 were about my only choices. H4831SC had more data and I trusted it more based on my experience.

5) I think so.... you will learn a lot with each.

6) I don’t.

7) less runout with a basic O press. Runout is accuracy.

[big al hunter]

7. I know I can load rifle on the Turret press but I have read a lot about the benefits of a single stage for it. Anything to it? Seems like more precision is possible maybe. Can I stick with Lee for that since I already have dies and all kinds of stuff that I like.

Your dies will work in most manufacturers presses. The majority use the same thread pitch and size. I run RCBS presses with dies from RCBS, Hornady, Lee and Lyman. The powder measure on your Lee turret can be mounted on a simple riser and used off press to accompany any brand of single stage press. You can start with the turret you have and see if it produces the accuracy you want. If you don't see the results you expect, you can get a single stage.

I recommend that you visit YouTube and watch this video http://youtu.be/TqcYI0G2hqM

This is a side by side comparison of many single stage presses.

[kilotanker22]

Great Video! I love Gavin's videos. He has a lot of information on his channel. Definitely a great channel to follow.

[baddarryl]

Thanks guys.

[Bart B.]

Multiple stage presses are used to make cases, bullets and primers.

Multiple stage presses put those components plus thrown powder charges together into cartridges.

The best match grade ammo from them is more accurate than what most people can load or reload themselves.

Shoot a statistically significant number of shots per test load to get reliable data. The odds of one few shot group being small are the same as one throw of dice in a crapshoot being a small number

[RaySendero]

Darryl.

I'm a little late to your party, so will make it quick:

1) If you must do range brass, then sort by headstamp. After sorting take time to weigh the cases. You will probably find a few way far off the group average - discard these.

2) and 3) Decide on chrony and spotting scope early on, get one and learn to use them.

4) If possible, find 1 box of factory loads that have your desired bullet. Run about 1/2 the box over chrony for 3 shot groups and keep the other 1/2 box for life of rifle as a known standard for any future rifle or reload trouble-shooting.
4 con't) Look you up powder burn charts. And compare the recommended powders from the different reloading website/manuals. You should see the recommended powders group together on the burn rates.
4 con't) Choose powders that fill both the up case and provide good velocity.

5) YES, Starting out it is best to work on 1 firearm at a time,
because what you learn from the 1st will help 2nd, 3rd, etc.

6) Don't load at range.

7) Yes, Get turret press if you plan to load more than 1 or 2 cartridges.

[baddarryl]

Hey Ray. Thanks for that info. I do already have a Lee Classic Turret as noted up top. My question to you is what do you consider standard deviation and what do you consider outliers when weighing cases? Thanks.

[RaySendero]

I keep records of group velocity Standard Deviation, SD.
I evaluate my reloading quality using a statistic called
Coefficient of Variation, some times noted as just CV.
Its the SD divided by the Average Velocity (AV) expressed as a %;
i.e. CV = 100 x SD / AV.

For my target and long rifles I want to get the method and components to
shoot groups where the velocity CV is less than 1/2 percent (0.5%)

[RaySendero]

When weighing cases, I number each case (and if bullets, too) with a magic marker.
Then record each weight in a spread sheet.
When done, just sort by the weight column.
Look at the at heavy end and look at the light end.
The high/low extreme weights (outliers) will be obvious.
I just discard these cases.
If bullets, I separate them for plinking or some non-critical reload experiment.
I don't waste bullets.

[hounddawg]

I don't use range brass, brass is inexpensive

Chrono - one of the $100 opticals. They work fine for developing loads. I like the Prochrono because of the bluetooth. Next favorite would be the Magnetospeed. Why spend a lot of money on something that is rarely used once the load is developed

spotting scope - less than $300 would be one of the Celestrons. Less than $600 would be the Bushnell Legend with HD glass, over $600 Kowa. I can see .243 holes at 300 in the black with the Bushnell fairly easy, .223 on a good day

With the plethora of powders, bullets and loads out that do you just search on what people are using in their rifles as a starting point? Verified in loading books of course.

yes

I am assuming best to focus on one rifle at a time?

yes

I found loading at the range a pain in the butt and not worth the trouble because of wind issues blowing the powder, affecting scales etc

your Lee will be fine

[baddarryl]

Thanks guys. I just ordered a Caldwell Ballistic Precision with exactly that in mind. Should be good enough for now and maybe the future. Going to take the same approach for a spotting scope too. Maybe find a deal on a good used one.

[hounddawg]

Going to take the same approach for a spotting scope too. Maybe find a deal on a good used one.

you see a lot of the Celestron and Konus scopes at my club, they are affordable and decent quality. About any 200 - 300 dollar scope will work for .223 out to 200, hardly anything works worth a damn past 300 unless you get into the four figure scopes and even then they are pretty much worthless past 400 when there is any mirage at all. Either of these is easy on the wallet and works well. I used this Konus for about 5 years, then it started fogging internally


https://www.amazon.com/Celestron-522...6457537&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.com/KONUS-7122-20...s%2C186&sr=8-5