The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Hunt

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 22, 2019, 03:21 PM   #26
onlinebiker
Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2019
Posts: 37
You think less would?

....

If more people have the opportunity to get in some hunting time - it's safe conjecture that more deer are going to be harvested.

Explain why you find that illogical conjecture.
onlinebiker is offline  
Old December 22, 2019, 03:24 PM   #27
onlinebiker
Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2019
Posts: 37
Thank you 44..

It's refreshing to see a polite dissenting opinion.
onlinebiker is offline  
Old December 22, 2019, 03:34 PM   #28
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 7,912
Opinions are not facts

Quote:
Lots of emotional responses there folks.
You started this thread as an "idea". Based on replies, you turn this into a debate. Now, you are on the verge of arguing. Not sure when your point of departure is but what you have stated, are your opinions and no facts. We all know what opinions are worth. …..

I work closely with the DNR folks and they are the ones that for the most part, have the facts. ……

It's my opinion that you should close this thread. If I agreed with any part of your "opinions", we would both be wrong !!! ….

Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old December 22, 2019, 05:33 PM   #29
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 5,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlinebiker View Post
This thread will no doubt raise a few hackles.


But before you flame - please consider - "that's how we have always done it" isn't a logical answer. It's an emotional response.



The idea - legalizing the hunting of whitetail deer at night.

Anyone who had hunted can tell you that deer go nocturnal once the gunfire erupts. If hunting is to be an effective herd management tool - hunters need to be able to see something to shoot at.

I am a retired guy who can spend the time - and I usually fill all my tags pretty quickly. Processing the meat is the thing that slows me down. I only have one doe tag left this year and am waiting for late doe.

But working guys? It's dark when they go to work, it's dark when they get home. If they get poor weather on the weekend - their only option is to burn up vacation time.

If they could hunt at night it would be a different story.


Here in Michigan - there is a bill -HB 5244 - to start the season 10 days earlier. This really won't help. It will just make the deer go noctirnal earlier.


Thoughts?
If they increase number of tags, they can increase harvest to whatever they want it to be. While most of us kill 1 or two deer a year, I know plenty of Bubbas who fill their, their wives, and their daughters tags. If they could kill 30 legally, they would probably kill 60.

Last edited by reynolds357; December 22, 2019 at 05:40 PM.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 07:04 AM   #30
onlinebiker
Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2019
Posts: 37
It amazes me how many of you seem to know lawbreakers.

I don't know anyone who poaches. A couple of my neighbors even have restrictions above the states - one will not allow does to be taken on his land.

I guess you are the people to ask - do poachers actually wait for the laws to change to modify their behavior?


I always assumed they were like any other criminal - oblivious to or simply uncaring about laws.
onlinebiker is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 07:43 AM   #31
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlinebiker View Post
A couple of my neighbors even have restrictions above the states - one will not allow does to be taken on his land.
^^^...and this is what really contributes to total amount of deer taken. Limited access to private land and when there is access, there are generally conditions. Several years back, when Wisconsin first discovered CWD, they opened up the area with the hopes of eliminating every deer in the area. They had gun seasons that ran from September thru February with unlimited buck and doe tags. But, with 90% of the land in the area privately owned, there were not significantly more deer shot, because the land owners dictated who shot what. Now yes, deer on public lands were decimated, but next door on public land they still were plentiful.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 08:48 AM   #32
onlinebiker
Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2019
Posts: 37
Several of the neighbors in my area are a big part of the inspiration for this idea.

They would like to hunt on their property - and some do - on weekends. If it's not raining or blowing snow - both ofvwhich are frequent this time of year.

Hunting is not top priority to them. They wont spend the money on a license the are not likely to use - and are even less likely to take time off work or burn up what little vacation time they have.

This doesn't make them the enemy. They just have different priorities.

Several of them said they would hunt in the evening for an hour or two if it was legal - but because it's not an option - don't.

A few let friends and family hunt their property. Most simply become defacto wildlife refuges.
onlinebiker is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 09:40 AM   #33
NoSecondBest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 2,524
I'm not sure there's any credibility left in this thread. Sounds like it's trying to "walk back" at this point.
NoSecondBest is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 10:03 AM   #34
onlinebiker
Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2019
Posts: 37
NSB - you made it very clear in your first reply that you were vehemently opposed to the idea.

I don't expect you to change your opinion.


But - I would be interested to hear why you feel that we need to be "sporting" in our taking of game animals.

Just because I don't see a need to do things your way gives me no less right to take game however I see fit - as long as it's legal.
onlinebiker is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 11:33 AM   #35
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 7,912
Only one perfet man ever walked this earth.

Quote:
It amazes me how many of you seem to know lawbreakers.
It shouldn't as I know "you" encounter; Liars, Cheaters and Stealers, every day. We all do and I suspect there are times when we all fall into these categories. I teach Hunter Ethics and while discussing the do's and don'ts, I sometimes see a young person slowly look up at his father. The father will does acknowledge his gaze. ……

Quote:
I always assumed they were like any other criminal - oblivious to or simply uncaring about laws.
That would be my opinion, based on the fact that their actions are not limited to game laws. …..

Back on point; Deer hunting at night, is not only illegal but unethical and dangerous. …..

Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

Last edited by Pahoo; December 23, 2019 at 07:41 PM.
Pahoo is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 03:00 PM   #36
Blindstitch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2013
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 2,550
Quote:
It amazes me how many of you seem to know lawbreakers.
You must never get out. It's everywhere just depends on how little or much is to much.

I hang around with some older guys who like to tell stories. One always talks about how they would have 1,2,3 deer hanging in the barn the day before season opened and those deer were reserved for camp food. Even joked about the Warden coming in and eating with him. That guys 90.

Another talks about when there was a 100 point system for duck hunting and a hen was worth 100 points so they would step on them and bury them in the mud because one bird isn't worth hunting.

Another guy use to shoot his limit of pheasants and his dads who rode along with him.

I was fishing in michigan once and these guys came back to the lodge with their limit of walleye all undersized. They were from Wisconsin. In some areas of wisconsin there is no size limit. Someone called the DNR before I saw them and they were fined and fish were confiscated.

Caught a guy scouting this area that would be great for duck hunting. I was fishing and he asked why nobody hunted this area full of ducks. You should have saw the look on his face when I said it was a wildlife refuge. Pretty sure he was going to hunt there the next day.

We have an area here where one side of the hunting property is shotgun only due to the municipality. The other side is everything goes due to the other municipality. The police and Dnr tend to steer people back to the right areas.

3 years ago 3 guys shot almost 60 ducks over loose corn near grand rapids michigan.

This year 2 guys shot 2 swans in northern michigan and were found with leadshot on them.

Some mistakes are honest and some intentional.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member
Blindstitch is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 03:11 PM   #37
NoSecondBest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 2,524
Quote:
But - I would be interested to hear why you feel that we need to be "sporting" in our taking of game animals.

Just because I don't see a need to do things your way gives me no less right to take game however I see fit - as long as it's legal.
Why don't you and your "like minded" friends take this idea to your state game department and try to sell them on it. Also, take it to some local sportsmen's clubs. I think you'll find about as welcome a response there as you're getting on here. It's difficult to tell people they're being ignorant or wrong when they really believe that what they're doing and enjoy just seems "so right" to them. I honestly don't know how else to explain it to you if the very concept appeals to you. You're starting to sound like a "sovereign citizen" here. Laws simply don't apply to you and your "like minded friends"?
NoSecondBest is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 04:19 PM   #38
onlinebiker
Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2019
Posts: 37
1. I guess if you can't explain something that is supposed to be so clear cut - it isn't.

2. I obey all hunting laws. Me looking to get the laws changed does not make me a rule breaker. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
onlinebiker is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 05:53 PM   #39
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 5,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlinebiker View Post
It amazes me how many of you seem to know lawbreakers.

I don't know anyone who poaches. A couple of my neighbors even have restrictions above the states - one will not allow does to be taken on his land.

I guess you are the people to ask - do poachers actually wait for the laws to change to modify their behavior?


I always assumed they were like any other criminal - oblivious to or simply uncaring about laws.
I know plenty of lawbreakers because I recently retired from L.E. locked up a pile of folks.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old December 23, 2019, 06:37 PM   #40
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlinebiker View Post


But - I would be interested to hear why you feel that we need to be "sporting" in our taking of game animals.

Just because I don't see a need to do things your way gives me no less right to take game however I see fit - as long as it's legal.
The adjective "game" is why. Makes it different than predator, furbearing or nuisance animal. Deer are not only managed for numbers, but are also managed for quality of the hunt. This is the idea behind antler restrictions, so that more folks have the opportunity to see bucks. Deer and other wildlife are managed by folks who do it for a living. They have to balance numbers and create regulations so hunters have a fair and equal chance, while keeping farmers and insurance agencies at bay. They need to create seasons and hunting hours that give enough opportunities, while keeping folks safe and making enforcement realistic.

You're right, as long as how you hunt is legal, no one should feel the need to critisize you.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old December 24, 2019, 09:42 AM   #41
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSecondBest View Post
I'm not sure there's any credibility left in this thread. Sounds like it's trying to "walk back" at this point.
Like rectal orifices, everyone has an opinion, and they should.

Sometimes folks get an idea that they think is a sure thing, come on an online forum, post about it and then do not get the replies they expected or desired. Nuttin' wrong with it, just how it happens. Nature of the beast. The OP's title to this thread is "An idea to consider". Yet, when we considered it, he was upset with our replies. Ask for an opinion and you have to be able to accept the answer.

When I was in construction, folks with little or no experience with carpentry would always have to suggest "better" ways to build a house. When I coached/refereed youth and High School Hockey, folks with only a casual knowledge of the game always knew the rules and how to coach than I did. Neighbor across the street with the worst looking yard in the neighborhood, is always giving me advice on how I should fertilize/mow/landscape my yard. The issue isn't that they have ideas and opinions, it's that those opinions and ideas are not based on fact or experience. Things always look easy from outside the box. Same goes for hunting rules and regs. Hard to find anyone happy with all they have to abide by. Someone always has a better idea. Generally that "better" idea will benefit them and the way they hunt. But what wildlife managers and biologist has to consider, is what's best for everybody. The game animals, the hunters and the general public. They have to consider ethics, safety and hunter image, along with controlling numbers. They cannot dictate weather, nor tell private land owners to allow access or tell individual hunters what they should shoot. They can tell us what we can shoot, but what we do shoot, is up to us. Hunting has come along way in terms of safety since I started to hunt. used to be there were dozens of people shot and several deaths every year during the 9 day gun season from gunshot wounds. Now it's seldom we hear of a gunshot wound not self-inflicted, and deaths from gunshots are rare. The implementation of Blaze Orange has been a big part of this. Blaze orange allows hunters to see other hunters in the woods and a greater distances than without it. Hunting at night would take that away.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old December 24, 2019, 11:58 AM   #42
Blindstitch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2013
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 2,550
Quote:
used to be there were dozens of people shot and several deaths every year during the 9 day gun season from gunshot wounds. Now it's seldom we hear of a gunshot wound not self-inflicted, and deaths from gunshots are rare. The implementation of Blaze Orange has been a big part of this. Blaze orange allows hunters to see other hunters in the woods and a greater distances than without it.
Guess it works well except for that year 6 wisconsin hunters were shot intentionally. https://www.twincities.com/2014/11/2...ern-wisconsin/

For a few years after that I hunted 2-3 miles from that spot. Didn't get any deer but also didn't get shot.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member
Blindstitch is offline  
Old December 24, 2019, 04:27 PM   #43
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 5,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindstitch View Post
You must never get out. It's everywhere just depends on how little or much is to much.

I hang around with some older guys who like to tell stories. One always talks about how they would have 1,2,3 deer hanging in the barn the day before season opened and those deer were reserved for camp food. Even joked about the Warden coming in and eating with him. That guys 90.

Another talks about when there was a 100 point system for duck hunting and a hen was worth 100 points so they would step on them and bury them in the mud because one bird isn't worth hunting.

Another guy use to shoot his limit of pheasants and his dads who rode along with him.

I was fishing in michigan once and these guys came back to the lodge with their limit of walleye all undersized. They were from Wisconsin. In some areas of wisconsin there is no size limit. Someone called the DNR before I saw them and they were fined and fish were confiscated.

Caught a guy scouting this area that would be great for duck hunting. I was fishing and he asked why nobody hunted this area full of ducks. You should have saw the look on his face when I said it was a wildlife refuge. Pretty sure he was going to hunt there the next day.

We have an area here where one side of the hunting property is shotgun only due to the municipality. The other side is everything goes due to the other municipality. The police and Dnr tend to steer people back to the right areas.

3 years ago 3 guys shot almost 60 ducks over loose corn near grand rapids michigan.

This year 2 guys shot 2 swans in northern michigan and were found with leadshot on them.

Some mistakes are honest and some intentional.
All the spotlighters around here amaze me. The gamewardens use robotic deer. Its funny how many times people shoot them because they think they are missing them. The funniest story is when they set up in a field and a legal permitted night hunter blew their deer all to pieces with a suppressed ar15 with gen iii night vision.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old December 24, 2019, 04:39 PM   #44
Blindstitch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2013
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 2,550
Quote:
The gamewardens use robotic deer.
That's funny. I hear a lot of complaints around here about people shooting robotic deer and having to pay for their repairs. Not sure how many times these people are shooting them but maybe they should just follow the rules and not worry.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member
Blindstitch is offline  
Old December 24, 2019, 05:24 PM   #45
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 14,112
Quote:
I would be interested to hear why you feel that we need to be "sporting" in our taking of game animals.
Quote:
The adjective "game" is why.
True, but the fact that this is "sport hunting" and not subsistence hunting does have bearing on the issue. One of the main reasons many people hunt is just the pure atavistic thrill of being outdoors and gathering a little food in the process. If you just want meat, your local grocery store has meat that is cheaper than anything you can go shoot by the time you count gas, wear and tear on vehicles, ammo, meals (if any), and the value of your time (again, if any). Few of us live so close to where we hunt that we can just say it doesn't cost anything to go and shoot an animal. I mean, I have eaten many $150 pheasants, a lot of $20/lb "free" venison, many "free" salmon I paid $100 or more to catch. We do it for sport, i.e. for fun. That's why it's called sport hunting, and why we follow "sporting" fair chase rules. If you do it any other way, the game populations would plummet, and we'd be back where the country was at the turn of the 19th-20th Century when deer were so rare that people would travel a long way just to see one . Most of our whitetail deer in this country originated from the population of a private estate farm in Virginia, they were essentially extinct in the wild because people had shot them whenever they could for so long that they got almost all of them. Now we give them a "sporting chance", basically acknowleding that we have the advantage and give them a running start. So, if you want to know what the game populations would be like if we didn't have game laws, just look at many Asian, African or European countries, where the main populations of native wildlife are in parks and on private refuges.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old December 24, 2019, 09:48 PM   #46
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 21,391
Quote:
they were essentially extinct in the wild because people had shot them whenever they could for so long that they got almost all of them.
This was a factor. There were other factors involved, including man's removal of the natural predator balance. There were places where the deer population almost went extinct WITHOUT predators OR hunting.

One of the most famous examples was the Kaibab deer. Its not just deer, any animal will do the same under the same kind of conditions. Remove predators, remove human hunting, and the animal population will breed until all the food is gone, then nearly all starve.

If you need to reduce deer population in a particular area (for the deer's own good) there are ways to do it that don't involve every jerk who can buy a license and a spotlight (or worse, night vision gear) running around the woods in the dark.

As to WHY we have rules and restictions, if the words SPORT and GAME don't tip you off, I'm not sure what will explain it to you.

Its not survival hunting, its not pest control, tis not protecting your livestock or harvest. Its a SPORT. Its a GAME and games have rules, or they aren't games. Don't like the rules? Take it up with the rules committee. OR, find another game.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 25, 2019, 05:33 AM   #47
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 7,114
idea

Not a fan of this idea, couple of reasons:
- 1) How does a warden/ conservation officer determine what is legal night hunting and illegal, shoot from the roadway, outlaw hunting? Hunting in the dark will require some means of seeing in the dark, either a light source, or some type of NVG. But a very convenient and common light source is the headlights from a vehicle. My opinion is that such a law would simply open the door to widespread shooting from the roadways.
- 2) General firearms safety, how can one possibly identify their target and beyond in the dark in every location? How can one be absolutely sure of the location of his hunting partners if they are afoot on a stalk? Some of the video I watch of night hunting hogs in TX makes me cringe, with all the lights, buildings and livestock in the background and shooters lined up in the dark blazing away.
-3)Fair chase. Either you get it, or you don't. No words from either camp apparently will change either parties mind. I hunt for the challenge and the enjoyment as much as for meat. In fact, I'd wager the price per pound for venison is FAR higher than beef, when all the costs are considered for most folks.

Poachers. Spent the better part of 30+ yrs dealing with outlaw hunters, poachers, etc. Some folks have an idea of the scale of the problem, but I think a lot of people don't have a clue, the OP's comment being one example. I had one half mile of cornfields along a remote section of roadway where I picked up a gallon bag of empty hulls along the road edge over the course of a winter, left by night hunters,and those were the cases that ejected out of the vehicles and we were able to find. We worked it hard, made some cases, the intensity declined, but it never stopped and is still ongoing I am certain. And then there are the "opportunists". Decent folks, normally, but when faced with an opportunity to shoot, or increase their chances of taking a deer, say by crossing a boundary line or by doing a bit of road hunting or illegal baiting, they'll do it if they think they can get away with it. Then there are the folks who just don't care about the law. My family has an elderly friend, out of state. He hunts private property in Amish country, has for years, and much of the game he kills he gives to the landowner. He takes, by admission, well over his state limit every season of deer and turkey both. Doesn't bother with tagging or reporting, likely never will get caught due to the difficulty accessing the property by authorities. Heck of a nice guy, but a game law violator of the highest order.
bamaranger is offline  
Old December 25, 2019, 10:33 AM   #48
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
This was a factor. There were other factors involved, including man's removal of the natural predator balance. There were places where the deer population almost went extinct WITHOUT predators OR hunting.
^^^This. Far too many folks do not realize how many things influence deer populations. Along with hunting pressure and natural predators, there is habitat and availability of food. Like the extinction of Passenger Pigeons and the near extinction of the American Bison, Market hunting was a major factor in the late 1800s and early 1900s on the deer populations. Market hunters also decimated waterfowl and wild turkey populations at the same time. Once Market hunting was outlawed, came the Great Depression and folks having to poach to put food on the table. Deer populations already depleted, stagnated. Add to that the fact that deer are browsers, not grazers. They were not yet acclimated to humans and their agricultural crops. Huge stands of virgin timber, unless they contained a large amount of mast crops.....did little to provide food for deer. Unless those forest were cut or burnt, and allowed to regrow, deer populations were heavily influenced by what they could find to eat. One thing that historically influenced deer populations was WWII. Large amount of men gone for 3-5 years. Not much for ammo left in the country and because there were so few men left, farms allowed to go fallow and grew "browse". This is why at least in Wisconsin, deer populations soared in the early 1940s. Then when the boys came back and deer management was still young, and aided by several severe winters, populations again bottomed out. Modern deer management did not happen till the early 60s here in Wisconsin. Since then, like it or not, our ability of Wisconsin biologists to monitor deer herd size, to prescribe unit-specific antlerless quotas, and to accurately predict harvest outcomes was soon recognized and envied by peers regionally and nationwide. Wisconsin became a model for deer management in North America. It's not perfect, but it has stabilized deer numbers, made hunting safer, while creating opportunities for quality hunting experiences. That is what deer hunting is about. The "sport" of deer hunting is what has driven the cost of recreational property to record highs. It is what has made food plot seed and deer food a big industry wherever deer are found. It is the "sport" of deer hunting that has driven archery from simple sticks to the hi-tech bows and crossbows we have today. One only has to walk into a store or drive down the street around here on opening weekend to experience the "Orange Flood" that tales place during deer season. Most of those dressed in orange want to be known as hunters, not just someone who shoots a deer standing in the headlights, which is what will happen if we open up night hunting to the general population.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
If you need to reduce deer population in a particular area (for the deer's own good) there are ways to do it that don't involve every jerk who can buy a license and a spotlight (or worse, night vision gear) running around the woods in the dark.

As to WHY we have rules and restictions, if the words SPORT and GAME don't tip you off, I'm not sure what will explain it to you.

Its not survival hunting, its not pest control, tis not protecting your livestock or harvest. Its a SPORT. Its a GAME and games have rules, or they aren't games. Don't like the rules? Take it up with the rules committee. OR, find another game.
^^^exactly!
buck460XVR is offline  
Old December 26, 2019, 01:59 AM   #49
Geezerbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2011
Location: Willamina, OR
Posts: 1,202
I could see extending hunting hours by a couple either direction for archery hunting but I think doing the same during rifle season would be just plain dangerous...

Tony
Geezerbiker is offline  
Old December 26, 2019, 05:45 AM   #50
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,937
i'm totally opposed to hunting deer at night. For one thing "road hunters" will kill more livestock.

Despite generous bag limits, most of Oklahoma is over run with deer. The exception is "Little Dixie" in the SE part of the state. Scofflaws there poach deer 24 hours per day all year long.

Next year OWDC will extend deer season/s.
thallub is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10024 seconds with 8 queries