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Old January 31, 2018, 06:31 PM   #51
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(I don't buy into the argument the 10MM is equal to the .41 Magnum)
Me either, I don't even understand where this comes from. The 10mm BARELY equals the 357 Magnum, it not in the same league as the 41 Rem Mag.

Disclaimer: I hand load and shoot both cartridges and like them both plenty.
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Old January 31, 2018, 07:14 PM   #52
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I get where it came from. The hottest 10MM loads are in the neighborhood of some “normal” factory .41 loads but it never gets to hot .41. The 10mm and .357 are pretty similiar from factory to top loads. The 10MM to .41 comparison though does not seem fully honest
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Old January 31, 2018, 07:20 PM   #53
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https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/...hard-to-shoot/

Personally, it's for them bears terrorizing the USA now. In NJ (oh, you can't have a handgun there), a guy came home with a bag of meatball subs and a bear knocked him over and took the subs. You have to be ready for that.

Seriously, with the right load, some folks say it is a good back up gun for bear country. Now, I have no expertise on that matter but I read it somewhere. Supposedly, the Norwegian and Danish game warden types do this.

Anybody mention this new revolver:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...-in-10mm-auto/
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Old January 31, 2018, 08:07 PM   #54
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Being a .40 S&W guy I had to take a long, hard look at the bigger brother 10mm last year after I really got into reloading ammunition because, realistically, if you want to shoot 10mm Auto at the higher power ranges for practice, you have to be rich or reload. Most of the factory target ammo for 10mm is not much more powerful than .40 S&W is and it costs more.

I'm not rich and I do reload, so a 10mm and it's greater power compared to .40 and .45 ACP interests me more than the more niche cartridges like .460 Rowland, which is more expensive to reload because the brass and bullets aren't as common.

I think the reason why you're seeing so many new 10mm's at SHOT is there's a void in the market and manufacturers are looking to cash in on that lack of guns in 10mm. When it comes to 10mm carbines, that void grows ever larger. Out of a 16 inch barrel, the hot 10mm hits impressive levels of energy. I'm hoping Ruger comes out with some 10mm carbine that takes Glock mags.

Is .40 going to die? No because a .40 is still more powerful than a 9mm and it comes in the same size pistols. Police, IMO, don't have a use for a 10mm unless they live in Alaska or the Rocky Mtns or northern New England where they might come across some big animals that might not like them. Otherwise, the .40 has been around for almost 30 years and has been used by police very successfully.

LE departments are just moving to 9mm for cost reasons. Maybe also for logistical reasons in case they have to be rolled into service with the military/national guard during potential national crises. If we start hearing more departments going to the P320, that will only confirm that.

10mm really is just the modern .45 ACP. Higher mag capacity, flatter trajectory for longer ranges, performs well either loaded light or hot, and if run in large enough batches, costs less than .45 ACP due to less lead, copper, and brass being used.

10mm is easily converted to .40 S&W, heck it can shoot .40 without any conversion barrel or spring changes, and it's also able to convert to a 9mm. I have yet to see a .45 ACP that can convert to a 9mm and be a reliable shooter.

There's a lot of reasons 10mm is coming back. It has all the strengths of the .45 ACP and more, yet none of the weaknesses.
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Old January 31, 2018, 08:12 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062 View Post
If you don't reload, and the vast majority of shooters do not, it is a whole lot more expensive than 9mm.
Most companies don't make products for the small percentage of shooters who reload.
Besides .22, there's nothing compared to 9mm that's the same price that's also much more powerful than 9mm.

So, if people want a much more powerful handgun, they have to look at 10mm or larger in a pistol. 10mm may be expensive, but it's not crazy expensive to shoot because you can shoot cheaper .40 S&W in it.
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Old January 31, 2018, 10:12 PM   #56
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"heck it can shoot .40 "

It might be more accurate to say it might shoot .40.

Unlike .38's in a .357 revolver, which headspace on the rim, and give a solid index for the case/primer and firing pin/hammer, the .40 and the 10mm headspace on the casemouth. All that holds the .40 case against the breechface on a 10mm pistol is the extractor and its fit to the extraction groove. Given the tolerance stacking possible from gun to gun, extractor dimensions , firing pin protrusion, primer pocket depth, primer seating depth, extraction groove dimensions (given assorted cases) , a .40 case might fire in a 10mm........and it might not.

Too, I know of no manufacturer that advises that .40 S&W may be fired in their 10mm pistol, but of course some say factory ammo only, so we know they play it conservative. Never the less, firing a cartridge in a handgun not so marked and chambered gives me the creeps. I'd rather spend the money and buy a drop in barrel.
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Old January 31, 2018, 10:12 PM   #57
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10mm may be expensive, but it's not crazy expensive to shoot because you can shoot cheaper .40 S&W in it.
says who? Where is it stated from any manufacturer that you can shoot 40 S&W in it?
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Old January 31, 2018, 10:38 PM   #58
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Warren and Dobbs, the 10mm and big game

If you want to see good shots put the 10mm to work on big game, check out the Youtube videos of Keith Warren and Razor Dobbs. These guys shoot well, and they are on guided hunts, but their films are good examples of what the 10mm is capable of, in good hands, shot well with good loads, and at reasonable ranges. Hogs, whitetail, nilgai, and wildebeast.
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Old January 31, 2018, 10:54 PM   #59
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I get where it came from. The hottest 10MM loads are in the neighborhood of some “normal” factory .41 loads but it never gets to hot .41. The 10mm and .357 are pretty similiar from factory to top loads. The 10MM to .41 comparison though does not seem fully honest
At one point I did a thorough survey of all commercially available .357Mag, 10mm and .41Mag ammo.

The .357Mag and 10mm were very close in terms of momentum and energy while the .41Mag topped out WELL above either one in terms of both.

The comparison came about because of one particular loading. When the 10mm was still pretty new, there weren't a lot of different loadings for it. One of the loadings was the Winchester Silvertip. As it happened, there is also a Winchester Silvertip loading for the .41Mag, and when the two are compared the 10mm loading was actually a little hotter than the .41Mag. What wasn't immediately clear from that comparison was that the 10mm Winchester STHP loading was near the top end of the 10mm power scale and the Winchester STHP loading for the .41Mag was near the bottom end of the power scale for that caliber.

But the comparison stuck and people have been citing it ever since.

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Old January 31, 2018, 10:54 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by bamaranger View Post
It might be more accurate to say it might shoot .40.

Unlike .38's in a .357 revolver, which headspace on the rim, and give a solid index for the case/primer and firing pin/hammer, the .40 and the 10mm headspace on the casemouth. All that holds the .40 case against the breechface on a 10mm pistol is the extractor and its fit to the extraction groove. Given the tolerance stacking possible from gun to gun, extractor dimensions , firing pin protrusion, primer pocket depth, primer seating depth, extraction groove dimensions (given assorted cases) , a .40 case might fire in a 10mm........and it might not.

Too, I know of no manufacturer that advises that .40 S&W may be fired in their 10mm pistol, but of course some say factory ammo only, so we know they play it conservative. Never the less, firing a cartridge in a handgun not so marked and chambered gives me the creeps. I'd rather spend the money and buy a drop in barrel.
Indeed, may be able to shoot .40 is better. Sorry, when the topic of 10mm comes up I instantly think about Glocks, which I've seen being shot with .40 trouble free.

Quote:
says who? Where is it stated from any manufacturer that you can shoot 40 S&W in it?
Aftermarket conversion barrels are a topic most manufacturer's don't like to make people aware of.

I'd say if someone is looking at a 10mm and wants to shoot a lot of factory ammo in it, but not necessarily the most powerful stuff, buying a .40 S&W barrel would be a good idea and pay for itself quickly.
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Old January 31, 2018, 11:09 PM   #61
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Indeed, may be able to shoot .40 is better. Sorry, when the topic of 10mm comes up I instantly think about Glocks, which I've seen being shot with .40 trouble free.

Aftermarket conversion barrels are a topic most manufacturer's don't like to make people aware of.

I'd say if someone is looking at a 10mm and wants to shoot a lot of factory ammo in it, but not necessarily the most powerful stuff, buying a .40 S&W barrel would be a good idea and pay for itself quickly.
but you didn't originally say you had to buy a conversion barrel. Originally you said you can shoot .40 without and conversion barrel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post

10mm is easily converted to .40 S&W, heck it can shoot .40 without any conversion barrel or spring changes, and it's also able to convert to a 9mm. I have yet to see a .45 ACP that can convert to a 9mm and be a reliable shooter.

There's a lot of reasons 10mm is coming back. It has all the strengths of the .45 ACP and more, yet none of the weaknesses.


don't mean to call it out but I don't want anyone thinking they can when they cant...
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Old January 31, 2018, 11:35 PM   #62
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but you didn't originally say you had to buy a conversion barrel. Originally you said you can shoot .40 without and conversion barrel.
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don't mean to call it out but I don't want anyone thinking they can when they cant...
Had Glock on my mind with that. Yes, one can likely shoot .40 in a 10mm Glock without a .40 barrel as the extractor holds the case in place to fire. I don't know how many times it can be done before the extractor wears out, but it can be done so long as the ammo, extractor, and Glock are copacetic in doing it.

I can't speak to shooting .40 in a 10mm in anything other than Glock.
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Old February 1, 2018, 12:56 AM   #63
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I'm not an expert on the subject.
There are some high risk activities I partake in without thought.
There are some common activities I avoid.

Shooting a cartridge that indexes off the casemouth in a firearm chambered for a different round by using the extractor to index is one of those activities many people seem to think is perfectly safe that I plan to avoid.

I have read about cases of 9mm firing when slightly forward in a 40. No quite the same thing, but I have to guess there are some similar effects.

Me, I haven't found a need for a bottom feeder more powerful than 9mm that isn't better met by a revolver or long gun.
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Old February 1, 2018, 09:01 AM   #64
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10mm vs. African Water Buffalo ---> Buff Lost.

Quote:
If you want to see good shots put the 10mm to work on big game, check out the Youtube videos of Keith Warren and Razor Dobbs. These guys shoot well, and they are on guided hunts, but their films are good examples of what the 10mm is capable of, in good hands, shot well with good loads, and at reasonable ranges. Hogs, whitetail, nilgai, and wildebeest.
You forgot Dobb's two Water Buff.

See attached pic of one of them.

The felt-recoil of even the hottest 220gn hard cast slug (1275fps/794fpe) is still going to be waaay less painful than that 460 Weatherby everybody seems to think you need over there to take the big guys down.
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Old February 1, 2018, 04:12 PM   #65
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At one point I did a thorough survey of all commercially available .357Mag, 10mm and .41Mag ammo.

The .357Mag and 10mm were very close in terms of momentum and energy while the .41Mag topped out WELL above either one in terms of both.
I did something similar when considering the 10MM and found much the same. Not the .41 but the .357 is pretty good company to keep especially across a range of bullet weights in an auto pistol.
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Old February 1, 2018, 04:36 PM   #66
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10mm is a powerful round with witch you can obtain serious capacity in a full-sized pistol. Handloaders like it too. IMHO, it's a better round than 45acp. Also, it would make a good carbine round. I think the only carbine that is made, however, is the KRISS 10mm.
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Old February 1, 2018, 04:46 PM   #67
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Old February 1, 2018, 05:12 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Skans View Post
10mm is a powerful round with witch you can obtain serious capacity in a full-sized pistol. Handloaders like it too. IMHO, it's a better round than 45acp. Also, it would make a good carbine round. I think the only carbine that is made, however, is the KRISS 10mm.
Hi Point makes a 10mm carbine if you consider Hi Points to be guns.
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Old February 1, 2018, 05:30 PM   #69
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My thought is since hk doesn't make a 10mm , it's a caliber war, err, dispute. If you want a ten, research and buy one. Or buy an hk and shoot 45 super. As far as felt characteristics, you already know from years of articles and posts about it. Feels like a bb gun to me, but let us know how you like it if you get one. A comparison with an hk shooting 45 super would be a good thread.

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Old February 1, 2018, 05:52 PM   #70
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Just Right Carbine has a 10mm as well.
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Old February 1, 2018, 07:07 PM   #71
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Scientific comparison.
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Old February 1, 2018, 07:38 PM   #72
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I think the popularity of the 10MM has to do with its move away from a “standard” duty caliber into something that gives you a viable “woods gun” in a semi auto. All of the guns capable of handling 45 or 40 super are huge compared to the G29
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Old February 1, 2018, 09:21 PM   #73
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Hi Point makes a 10mm carbine if you consider Hi Points to be guns.
The Hi Points haven't hit the market just yet.
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Old February 2, 2018, 04:04 AM   #74
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Guns last too long

There is a problem in the firearms industry , guns last too long! The worlds oldest revolver is over 400 hundred years old.
To keep selling products they have to develop a need . The 9mm and the .45 ACP have both been around for 100+ years. They both work.
The trend in handguns is to switch back and forth between small fast bullet and big slow bullet. The manufacturers need to sell you a gun every 3 or 4 years.
Eventually you will end up with guns in the most popular calibers.
The 10mm will work as a defense caliber, along with. 380, 9mm, .357 .40 , .44 .45 , .50AE .
It's mainly about shot placement (marksmanship) and bullet construction.
The End.
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Old February 2, 2018, 09:00 AM   #75
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The 9mm and the .45 ACP have both been around for 100+ years. They both work. The trend in handguns is to switch back and forth between small fast bullet and big slow bullet.
Actually, one of the design-parameters of the 10mm AUTO was the ability to push "relatively heavy bullets" (Jeff Cooper's words, referencing a 200gn TMJ-FP) very fast.

Autoloading pistol cartridges between .355/9mm and .45 can all pretty much push light bullets (within their caliber) fast. For example, that's why, back in the day, the 185gn +P load in 45acp was suddenly all the rage with L.E. - for a while anyway. It was an attempt, ballistically, to overcome known issues the .45's "slo-poke" loads had with penetrating certain forms of intermediate barriers.

It's when you start trying to send the heavier bullets fast that it gets interesting, like the 147gn in 9mm, or the 230gn in .45. The "top end" speed for those bullet-weights is pretty much a dead end due to the design of those cartridges.

Not so for the 10mm, especially with the advent of the newer generation of hybrid propellants. These powders allow velocity increases with heavy bullets with less pressure than the type Norma used back in the early 1980s when it established the 10mm's original loading specs - 200gn @ 1200fps, and 170gns @ 1400fps.

Now, you see 210gn, 220gn, and some 230gn 10mm hardcast loads in the 1230fps-1275fps range.

As some smarmy wag once put it: "The 10mm is like the Batmobile ... Top speed unknown."

Last edited by agtman; February 2, 2018 at 02:28 PM.
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