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Old February 20, 2014, 02:37 PM   #51
mavracer
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You want us to believe that S&W puts all the effort for accuracy into the revolvers they build and the semi-autos are well, whatever it is, is good enough????
You're missing the point and are going to get lost wandering into the BS as you have.
It's not that they put all the effort into the revolvers it's that making an automatic with a barrel that's not rigedly mounted to the sights requires more effort to make as accurate as a gun that has the sights mounted to the frame. Tightly fitting the barrel and slide so that they lock up tight while retaining the reliability desired in a service pistol requires more hand fitting which adds cost, so S&W certainly builds in added tolerance to insure reliability at the cost of accuracy.
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Old February 20, 2014, 02:45 PM   #52
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You're missing the point and are going to get lost wandering into the BS as you have.
It's not that they put all the effort into the revolvers it's that making an automatic with a barrel that's not rigedly mounted to the sights requires more effort to make as accurate as a gun that has the sights mounted to the frame. Tightly fitting the barrel and slide so that they lock up tight while retaining the reliability desired in a service pistol requires more hand fitting which adds cost, so S&W certainly builds in added tolerance to insure reliability at the cost of accuracy.
Exactly and said in much fewer words than I used.

I will again argue that most shooters cannot shoot to the limits of their pistols so the question is sort of moot. Using the OPs criteria however and if you have the skills, a mid priced production service revolver will be more inherently accurate than mid priced production service semi-auto due to the complexity differences in the two basic designs.
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Old February 20, 2014, 06:58 PM   #53
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In 99% of off hand applications it will be all about the Indian not the arrow... Most guns are mechanically more accurate than the shooter.

If you are shooting off a mechanical rest whats the fun in that? LOL

Couldn't agree more
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Old February 20, 2014, 08:03 PM   #54
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I will again argue that most shooters cannot shoot to the limits of their pistols so the question is sort of moot.
So you don't shoot good enough to know what shoots good?
Kinda a conundrum
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Old February 25, 2014, 12:33 PM   #55
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I shoot better with a revolver. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing.
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Old February 27, 2014, 06:17 AM   #56
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accuracy

Inherent accuracy....what the gun will do when locked in a ransom rest?
We could talk forever but the argument that the barrel and sights being locked together, a la revolvers, results in superior accuracy is compelling. It may be worth considering, though, the idea that the cylinder with its cartridges in a revolver is not as tightly locked to the barrel when ignition occurs as the cartridge is in the breech of a semiauto. It may be that there is little effect; I don't know.
"Shootability", however, is a different consideration. I know that the OP referenced stock guns....however, any gun can be accurized, revolver or semi-auto. With that in mind....it is worth noting that all national records in conventional pistol shooting are held by semiautomatic pistols.
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Old February 27, 2014, 06:39 AM   #57
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If it hasnt been addressed already. I say distance will play a key factor in the accuracy war. Its well know that a semi barrel will move to some extent where a Rev is fixed. At 15yds this will have little to no effect. At 100yds that .001" in movement equates to several inches. Prior to that the SA may have some advantage in grip angle and fit to the hand. But, for 99.9% of us its the Indian not the arrow that is dictating accuracy. Unless you are shooting a very poor quality handgun.
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Old February 27, 2014, 07:54 AM   #58
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it is worth noting that all national records in conventional pistol shooting are held by semiautomatic pistols.
IMHO - - & I could be wrong - - I believe that's due to the games being geared towards a semi auto more than a revolver.
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Old February 27, 2014, 11:18 AM   #59
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The revolver is generally more accurate off the shelf except for .22 L.R. The autos used in bulls eye competition are not off the shelf guns. The semis seem to be more accurate than they were years ago. The single action trigger on a S&W rev. is so much better than any semi that the trigger pull alone makes it easier to shoot well, add the fact that it's more accurate too and there's your answer. The rev. hands down.
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Old February 27, 2014, 11:22 AM   #60
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"Shootability", however, is a different consideration. I know that the OP referenced stock guns....however, any gun can be accurized, revolver or semi-auto. With that in mind....it is worth noting that all national records in conventional pistol shooting are held by semiautomatic pistols.
I think that Jerry Miculek might argue that statement. 12 rounds with a reload in 2.96 seconds and all the championship titles he has using wheel guns.
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Old February 27, 2014, 11:54 AM   #61
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The autos used in bulls eye competition are not off the shelf guns.
And neither are the revolvers!

Every tweak or modification allowed within the rules is used. Sights, grips, trigger & action jobs, etc. If its allowed in the rules, it is being done, by most, if not all. Other than matches where no modifications at all are the rules, the next time someone wins a major match with a completely bone stock off the shelf gun will be the first time in a very long time.

Consider for a moment the Contender. It has the fixed barrel & sight relationship of the revolver, and the solid barrel & chamber of the auto pistol. And generally, will out shoot both in terms of accuracy (group size).
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Old February 27, 2014, 01:10 PM   #62
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Consider for a moment the Contender. It has the fixed barrel & sight relationship of the revolver, and the solid barrel & chamber of the auto pistol. And generally, will out shoot both in terms of accuracy (group size).
I wonder if anyone has tested a Freedom Arms head to head with a Contender?
I'm pretty sure the Contender would win - but - I wouldn't want to bet my life on it.
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Old February 27, 2014, 01:18 PM   #63
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I wonder if anyone has tested a Freedom Arms head to head with a Contender?
With the tolarances that FA holds on cylinder consentricity, bore alignment becomes a non factor. There would likely be as much difference between two contender barrels or two Freedom arms revolvers as there would be between between the brands.
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Old February 27, 2014, 01:30 PM   #64
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It may be worth considering, though, the idea that the cylinder with its cartridges in a revolver is not as tightly locked to the barrel when ignition occurs as the cartridge is in the breech of a semiauto. It may be that there is little effect; I don't know.
This can most certainly affect accuracy, but I submit that it get's pretty well taken care of at a much cheaper price point than barrel lock up does in an auto. I mean you start dropping below $300 and you'll start finding revolvers that wont shoot well because of issues with cylinder alignment however there are quite a few autos in that price range that are pretty good.
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Old February 27, 2014, 02:30 PM   #65
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Given your every day average, not custom, not tricked out, not worked over, stock out of the box gun.

Which have you found to be the more accurate?
It's about a wash, between my S&W 19 and Ruger Mk II Target.
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Old February 27, 2014, 11:26 PM   #66
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think that Jerry Miculek might argue that statement. 12 rounds with a reload in 2.96 seconds and all the championship titles he has using wheel guns.
Don't get me wrong....Miculek is a magically talented shooter but he doesn't shoot, afaik, "conventional pistol" matches. Conventional pistol is another term for Bullseye match shooting. Who knows? Maybe Mr. M will show up at Camp Perry, Ohio this July for the National Pistol Championships and walk away with all the glory. He has not chosen to do that yet, though
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Old February 28, 2014, 08:33 AM   #67
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Come on lee n field, using a MkII is cheating mate. You gotcha a good M-19 though!
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Old February 28, 2014, 11:51 AM   #68
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Which is the most accurate - revolver or semi-auto? Hmmm . . .

I've always found that there is no real difference . . . IF you take the time to practice, practice, practice and "learn" you handgun . . i.e. how it functions, how it aims, the best loads and where the POI is.

As the old saying goes . . "Beware of the man who shoots just one gun."
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Old February 28, 2014, 01:30 PM   #69
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It's about a wash, between my S&W 19 and Ruger Mk II Target.
Wow that's the most accurate 19 I've ever heard of most Mk IIs I've seen would easily shoot under an inch at 25 yards.
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Old February 28, 2014, 04:14 PM   #70
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Wow that's the most accurate 19 I've ever heard of most Mk IIs I've seen would easily shoot under an inch at 25 yards
All three of the M19's I owned would do that. The one I kept can do even better.
My Mark II "Slabside" is nothing to brag about from an accuracy standpoint.
Neither are the two .22/45's I have - but - I will say I do shoot the one .22/45 exceptionally well due to the sheer number of rounds I put through it.


Quote:
As the old saying goes . . "Beware of the man who shoots just one gun."
LOL!
I always chalked that one up to some poor guy that couldn't afford more than one gun saying that to make himself feel better about being poor
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Old March 1, 2014, 12:10 PM   #71
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Revolvers aren't used in Bullseye competition. It's a semi-auto game, has been for 50 years or longer.
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Old March 1, 2014, 06:55 PM   #72
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Revolvers aren't used in Bullseye competition. It's a semi-auto game, has been for 50 years or longer.
Pete they're not $700 stock autos either.

Sure Hal, I forgot this is the internet, All I know is I've shot several 10 shot groups with my old Mk II and my even older Mk I targets under 1/2" and they never shoot groups over 1" which is why I used the term easily. My M14 will shoot 5 under an inch sometimes but it's no safe bet, Also I'm sure you're not comparing 19s shooting carefully loaded reloads against Mk IIs shooting cheap bulk ammo as that's hardly apples to apples
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My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
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Old March 1, 2014, 06:59 PM   #73
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well....maybe...not

Quote:
Revolvers aren't used in Bullseye competition. It's a semi-auto game, has been for 50 years or longer
Semiautos do dominate the shooting....however, a blanket statement like the above is inaccurate.
I shoot with a fellow who shoots a K-22 in all of our Bullseye matches.....and shoots it quite nicely. I, myself, use an old S&W model 10 for the centerfire stages occasionally. I am sure that we are not the only ones.
However, the fact that so few shooters chose to shoot revolvers in the Bullseye game - where accuracy/precision is paramount - says volumes about the "shootability" of semiautos vs. revolvers.
All Distinguished Revolver matches run by the CMP are Bullseye matches.
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Old March 2, 2014, 08:36 AM   #74
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Sure Hal, I forgot this is the internet,
{{sigh}}} then further discussion is pointless...
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Old March 2, 2014, 09:03 AM   #75
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What I haven't seen here are two comparos of roughly comparable weapons, say a 4.5in 9mm semi and a 4in 38 wheelgun, all in the same price range, both locked in rests and then both fired handheld.

One might _assume _ that a fixed barrel 9, such as a Styr GB, would perform equally with a 38 wheelgun, but it would be a fun assumption to verify. I have the GB, but don't have a comparable 38, or I would do that myself.
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