Disgruntled man shooting tires and engine block of utility truck in front of his home

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Observing from a safe distance is quite silly. Why, if you can see the gun - the gun can see you.

Call the law and get clean away.

As far as given orders - read this:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...-your-commands

You assume that your hero status will lead to compliance. It might just as well lead to a round in you while you are blathering.

Don't be naive.

[TXAZ]

^^^^^^^^. This.

Stupid prizes for stupid actions.

[JoeSixpack]

Originally Posted by SIGSHR

Very stupid and totally unacceptable, the sort of publicity we DON'T need. I wonder if he somehow thought he could get away with it. Jail time at 64, not exactly a good retirement plan.

I actually predict he get's no more then 90 days in jail.
and probably a year or two probation.

It sounds like he has a clean record, he was a firefighter (yes this will play a role as he served the public much like a cop), He is also 64.. If he has any major health issues they really don't like to keep you.
They let prisoners with serious medical conditions out early all the time.

Sure they WILL throw his ass in prison if the crime is heinous enough.
But let's look at it.. he has 2 felony assault and 2 felony vandalism charges.

I suspect the assault charges get dropped altogether, and only the vandalism sticks.. and might even get reduced.

Im not a lawyer but I just have a feeling he's not gonna see more then 90.. or maybe 180 days in jail.

He's not gonna get years or anything as shocking as it might seem to some people on video it does not appear he intended harm on anything but property (trucks) and no one was injured.

[hdwhit]

If my home is in the vicinity of the shooting, I would check that the doors were locked, call the police and move to an inside area of the house putting as much mass between myself and the shooter as possible in case of ricochets.

If I did not live in the neighborhood but was just on the street, I would call the police, answer any questions they had about the situation, leave my name and contact information and withdraw from the vicinity.

[briandg]

There is nothing in that story that shows a need to intervene.even if you just by chance encountered an old man shooting a truck, without a shred of evidence that he has people pinned down inside, should you interfere?

As it sits on paper right now, the old man was shooting a car and not presenting a direct danger to anyone. Pointing a gun and yelling "FRREZE!" is an unnecessary escalation that could make him vent his anger on you.

Your ideas are good. Draw, record, prepare, wait. But hiding behind a car? Isn't he shooting at cars? Maybe rethink that.

The last line on the chart is that you haven't a shred of evidence that he poses a risk to life or injury. Professionals will be there soon. This situation, as it stands, shows no signs of possible escalation. It might resolve itself when he runs out of ammo, but even then, you don't k ow if ed Norton is waiting inside to provide backup.

There is nothing at all in the scenario posted that would suggest civilian intervention. Civilian intervention here has, imo, an absolutely shocking level of potential damage.

[deserted]

Reminds me of Colonel Potter, an old cavalryman, tearfully shooting his beloved but dying jeep with a 1911.

[briandg]

Every American male has grown up with the television image of a gun being used to settle a dispute, it's the final move, it trumps everything. Point a gun and they leave. It takes twenty-five minutes and commercials from beginning to end, the bad guy steals your cow a nd kicks your mule, you hunt him down and take back your cow, and make him apologize to the mule. Maybe you shoot the gun out of his hand. It all ends up good.

Sometimes, people just lose touch with what's real. Taking a gun after the revenooers like snuffy Smith used to.

Twenty years ago we had a similar incident. Old man who had owned his home since the Louisiana purchase had an open pit outhouse, inside the city. There were months of negotiations, and well, he liked doing his business out in the fresh air, so the city finally had to intervene. When a crew arrived to fix things up he pointed his .22 rifle.

You can't tell anymore. Brandishing a weapon used to be the beginning, and it was over. Point the gun and the other guy backs down. In the current cinema and television, the rules that are fed into our souls are confused, and unreal. You may see fifty or more people shot or killed in a two hour shift, sometimes just because they are standing next to a bad guy.

[K_Mac]

There is nothing at all in the scenario posted that would suggest civilian intervention. Civilian intervention here has, imo, an absolutely shocking level of potential damage.

I completely agree.

[briandg]

Joe, I expect suspended sentence or several years of probation. He's not a criminal, he's obviously demented, and there can't be anything stupider than locking him up just because he committed this crime.

Psych evaluation. Leave him alone in his home after taking away all dangerous objects. Arrange for observation.

What are they going to do? Have him plead guilty to whatever level of charge they need to do all of this, to enforce observation and compliance.

[briandg]

If I saw something like this going on down the block, I'd obviously pick up my rifle and binoculars and go to a window to watch. He's shooting a car? Okay. That's no reason to kill him. Unless I have a good reason to use deadly force, I don't need to be any closer than that.

I wouldn't even set down my coffee.

If the guy had shot an ice cream truck, it would have been much easier to understand.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Good idea to draw and observe. Yeah - people call the law. Man with a gun. The police roll up and see a man with a gun. YOU!

Why do folks want to stay around where there is gunfire? Ego, hero wannabees?

Unless you have a compelling reason to defend someone - leave the scene.

[TheDevilThatYouKnow]

Sure they WILL throw his ass in prison if the crime is heinous enough.
But let's look at it.. he has 2 felony assault and 2 felony vandalism charges.

I suspect the assault charges get dropped altogether, and only the vandalism sticks.. and might even get reduced.

First result from a Google search suggests otherwise -
Hussein and Webber

Penalties for Aggravated Assault

In Florida, Aggravated Assault is a third degree felony, with penalties of up to 5 years in prison or 5 years probation, and a $5,000.00 fine. The offense is harshly prosecuted throughout the State, and even first-time offenders will face a realistic possibility of prison.

The range of punishments can increase substantially, to include mandatory prison of up to 20 years, where a firearm is discharged during the course of an incident. Even if a firearm is not discharged, the mere fact that a gun was wielded during the assault will subject the accused to a 3 year minimum mandatory prison sentence..."

For certain, his savings are now going to go towards paying an expensive lawyer. A rather expensive lesson in not blowing one's top over trivialities.

[briandg]

You're right. There's no need to draw a gun. That's a step of preparedness far beyond what is called for in this exact, specific scenario.

I don't necessarily agree with running from the scene, leaving an active shooter in absolute control.

I'm not going to go into fantasy. This was a crazy old man who posed no probable threat, as long as I'm not a target or causing problems, observing from concealment is what may provide a measure of safety for the cops, (HEY! He went under the porch!) or provide the testimony that makes a conviction. Under nearly any situation that I can imagine, being in a position where you can safely observe and possibly intervene if the situation absolutely calls for it (saving lives).

There is no perfect solution. Run like hell to save yourself from any possible risk without any regard for the situation is one answer that may save a person's life. Relaying information that the guy has barricaded himself behind that truck, apparently to ambush the units that he hears coming may save several lives. Nothing more that I can say

[TheDevilThatYouKnow]

About an hour after “having words” with one of the workers, Jove came out with his .357 revolver and caused over $1,000 of damage to the trucks, an officer wrote in the report.

A Hialeah sergeant who responded to the shooting said he saw Jove fire at an AT&T worker in a raised bucket lift. After being told to put his weapon down, Jove dropped it on the swale, according to the report.

“After waiving his Miranda Rights the defendant furnished a statement stating he went ‘bananas’ and wanted to stop them from leaving,” the officer wrote in the report. “He shot at tires and truck to [get] the AT&T workers from leaving prior to police arrival.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...#storylink=cpy

I adore his explanation of the events.
He 'has words' with the workers and then goes inside his home for an hour but doesn't call the police.
He goes outside and shoots up two utility trucks, prompting a 911 call to the cops about an armed man shooting.
...
...
His explanation is that he didn't want the trucks leaving before the police arrived even though he didn't call them and they were responding to his actions. Yeah, cool story, bro.

[TXAZ]

There is a lot more to this story than has been printed.
Even for a mental condition.

[FITASC]

he's obviously demented,

How did you come to that conclusion? Are you a mental health professional that interviewed him? As was stated earlier, maybe he was just having a really bad day and this was just the straw that broke the camel's back and made him lost it for a while. NOT excusing his behavior, and he will and should do some jail time, but there may or may not be any mental issues involved (which could lead ton his loss of 2A rights)

[jmorris]

Doesn't look like much of a threat, they say there was a guy in the bucket, but nuts for sure.

[JoeSixpack]

Originally Posted by TheDevilThatYouKnow

For certain, his savings are now going to go towards paying an expensive lawyer. A rather expensive lesson in not blowing one's top over trivialities.

Like I said I think the assault charges will get dropped.
Besides just cause he was charged with something does not mean it won't get reduced, he could reach a deal.. a lot can happen..
I stand by my 90days jail and probation prediction.
This guy is not gonna do hard time for this.

but chances are the case will fade and we'll never hear what happens. so we'll have to wait and see.

@Glenn
I wouldn't feel a need to run from the scene, sure it's the safe thing to do, sure it's smart thing to do, but you think Im gonna miss that show.. oh hell no.

I really didn't see the guy as a immanent threat to anyone, I guess a ricochet could be dangerous but no intent to hurt anyone from what I can tell.

Just look how he takes his time.. he's not panicked at all.

I don't feel the need to run just cause someones firing off a gun, I mean someone could snap at the local range.. they're all strangers I don't know them.. and yet I pay them no never mind as a threat.

[briandg]

Fitasc, we can approach it from either a clinical or less specific basis, but regardless, the man was angry, because the truck on the street posed a threat to his driveway. Observation shows that he was wrong, right?

An hour later, the trucks had still caused no harm, but he was still angry. He very quietly fired several cylinders into the vehicles. He was fully in control of his emotions,as seen, no shouting, tremors, shaking. He said that he had shot the cars so that they couldn't escape before the police arrived, but the police weren't coming.


That was very obviously a person who was in control of himself, his actions were deliberate and careful. His actions were, however, made on defective thinking. Several different levels. He even had the delusion that he was simply "holding them for the police", that he had just performed a "citizen arrest".

Whether or not he was mentally defective, or suffering clinical dementia, he did it. That would almost certainly trigger a competency evaluation in some places.

I've worked with mental health professionals for years. I believe that the guy might be a bit dinged. What he did made no sense, one step to the next. I don't think he demonstrated full clinical dementia.

I see absolutely nothing to be gained from jail or prison time.people commit horrible crimes and still wind up without time. Looks like the guy has a nice place, probably no violent or dangerous history, nothing I'm seeing indicates that he poses a threat to the public, right?

Just what I can see, he was released on a minimal bond. The situation, to me, doesn't call for a long punitive incarceration. It wouldn't serve any purpose, would it?

I believe that the best solution is keeping him out of incarceration, under supervision, and keeping him in the court system. If he pleads to a five year sentence with parole, he will be supervised for five years and subject to arrest if he "loses it" again.

[armoredman]

Originally Posted by JoeSixPack

They let prisoners with serious medical conditions out early all the time.

They do that out there? We don't, once they are in prison. They might take that into account in trial and sentencing, like you said, but once sentenced, we don't let them go just because they are old and sick.

[shafter]

I would strongly advise against confronting the shooter. Call 911 immediately and report everything you see. Description of the shooter, direction of travel, what type of firearm he appears to have (long gun, handgun etc) and what he is shooting at. I would do this while seeking cover or preferably leaving the area.

Don't try to intervene. Wait for law enforcement to show up and do their thing. If someone else is foolish enough to come out and confront him then that's on them and their poor judgement.

[JoeSixpack]

Originally Posted by armoredman

They do that out there? We don't, once they are in prison. They might take that into account in trial and sentencing, like you said, but once sentenced, we don't let them go just because they are old and sick.

It's not like they let murders out for it, but ya they do.
They don't like to be responsible for people with serious health issues.. not to mention they're footing the bill.

It's not like it's a get out of jail free card but ya it does play a role in release.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You have no idea if a person walking around in public, shooting a gun, is in control or will not turn lethal. That part of the discussion is just silly.

He is using an instrument of lethal force in public and is passed boundaries of normal behavior. You have no idea where he would go with that.

If someone firing a gun in a public street, obviously having a problem with something, is not a threat, that's also ridiculous.

If you want to hang around, plan to intervene - it's your blood supply and CNS - not mine. I'll see that show on the news.

I know it's futile to debate this with folks - just have fun. Bring your kids!

[Frank Ettin]

And I don't see what more there is to discuss.