1858 New Army Revolver-First BP Revolver?

[johnm1]

Looking to step into BP revolvers and the 1858 New Army that Cabelas has caught my eye. Is this a good choice for a first BP revolver? Does anybody know who manufacturers it?

Starting from scratch, how much should I budget for necessary accessories and what would they be? I still have some research to do on BP in general. I don't really have a use other then general target shooting/plinking.

Below is a link to the Cabelas ad. Sorry about the long address. Not sure if it is my browser or what.


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...questid=124819

[Shotgun Willy]

Welcome to the world of cap and ball. I think the 1858's a decent gun to start with. I started with an 1860 Army, but then I don't do anything the easy way. My next purchase is going to be a Remington because they're more accurate than my 1860. Not as pretty and sleak but more accurate. They have the advantage of being easier to break down and clean. One of these days I'm going to learn the trick to getting the d cylinder back in within a reasonable amount of time.
I'd suggest going to your nearest Sportsmans Warehouse and handeling the guns in person. There are several scattered around AZ. Their prices just might beat/meet Cabela's too and you'll know just exactly what you're getting.
Bill

[plom]

Remington 1858 is the best way to start with BP revolvers, it's easy to clean, easy to disable. Make sure you get a good one, Uberti make some great models and they make one with a 5 1/2" barrel wich is perfectly balanced!
If I had to give you an advice, it would be Uberti 5 1/2" barrel or a Ruger Old Army, very cool BP revolver too!

[mykeal]

Don't know who makes that particular revolver, but it's most likely Pietta.

A good choice for the first bp revolver, if it fits your hand, etc. Frankly, I think how a revolver fits you and how well it shoots are more important than ease of cleaning and assembly/disassembly. Those traits are worth considering, to be sure, but in the end you buy a gun to shoot. Everything else being equal, ease of cleaning, assembly and disassembly would make a difference, but everything else is not equal.

Unfortunately you can't get advice on how a particular gun design works for you personally from the internet - you have to try it out. The 1858 Remington New Army is a very popular design that many, many people have been very happy with, so the odds are that it will be a good choice.

[dalegribble]

"I'd suggest going to your nearest Sportsmans Warehouse and handeling the guns in person. There are several scattered around AZ. Their prices just might beat/meet Cabela's too and you'll know just exactly what you're getting."

I got my 1851 Navy from Sportsmans Warehouse. I asked them if they would beat Cabelas price and I got the gun and starter kit for $150, steel frame! I try to support Sportsmans Warehouse whenever I can.

[Steve499]

If I were you I'd consider buying a .454 round ball mold ( Lee molds are less than $20.00). You won't buy too many boxes of balls before you are out more than that. You'll need something to melt lead in and a lead dipper. Both of those can be bought from various places or you can make stuff you have already work for those purposes. I've been casting bullets for over 30 years and I have yet to buy any lead, so you can probably scrounge that if you start watching for it.

I would recommend having a powder flask too. The spout on a flask can be changed for different powder charges and the spout makes it easier to get the powder into the chambers instead of on the ground. I use a 30 grain spout for my .44 but lots of folks report better accuracy with a little less than that. You have to just mess around with it to find what yours likes.

Personally, I prefer real black powder. I know it's hard to come up with in some places but I think it's worth the effort. The substitutes have no advantages over the real stuff as far as I'm concerned, and the whole black powder experience just NEEDS black powder!

There's gobs of other stuff you'll probably eventually wind up with. Lots of it you can make yourself as you need it. There are threads here and over on www.thehighroad.org which can tell you just about everything (and sometimes more) any of us have done to smooth out the carrying, loading, shooting, cleaning, disassembling and tuning of these revolvers.

Have fun!

[K.A.T.]

The 1858 is an excellent choice.You may want to consider a Stainless Steel model,it is more resistant to corrosion,and looks real cool in the 1858.

I'm not sure who makes the Cabela pistol,I have a Uberti stainless steel 1858 that I'm very pleased with.

Here is a list of things you will need just to start out,you can add other stuff if you decide you like shooting BP pistols.
1. Cleaning Rod and jag,look at Dixie Gun Works,#RP 2300
2. Bronze Bore Brush
3. Cleaning Patches
4. Powder
5. Balls
6. Caps
7. Nipple Wrench
8. Bore Butter
9. Powder Flask with proper spout or adjustable model.
10. Pipe Cleaners (cleaning inside of nipples)
11. Felt Wads (if you choose to use them)

A lot of these items are offered in a starter kit, it might be cheaper.

If you decide BP is something you like,you will probally buy a couple of Colt models.You will need a big tackle box,not a regular one,the big one.You will add more tools and gadgets, so you will need the big one.

Buy the right screwdrivers,don't mess up the screws in a new gun.There are a lot of kits available with changeable bits.Don't overtighten the screws.

Last but not least,keep all fingers out from in front of the cylinder while shooting and placing caps on the nipples.

[johnm1]

Thanks for the reassurance. This could be fun. I didn't know that Sportmans Warehouse carried black powder revolvers. They are not on display at the one close to my house. I know they do sell accessories for
BP and BP long arms. I needed another excuse to go in there anyway.

Convincing the wife may be a little tricky, but the couch is fairly comfortable.

[Shotgun Willy]

If your local SW is like mine then you'll find them hanging on the wall in the back corner of the store, behind the counter, next to the wall with the Black Powder accessories. They won't be far from the ML rifles.
Bill

[johnm1]

I went by the local Sportmans Warehouse today and held both the Remington NA and the Colt Navy. I think I actually like the New Army better in my hands.

Sportsmans Warehouse had both models by both Uberti and Traditions. The Uberti New Army was $270 (steel receiver) and the Traditions was $199.00 (brass receiver). The Traditions model was defiantly lighter then the Uberti and the Uberti had a crisper action, though not as crisp as I would like. There was no definitive 'click' as the hammer passed the half cock position. Funny thing about the revolvers from the two manufacturers was that they both had the same exact stamping on the receiver in the same location.

They had both the Uberti and the Traditions Colt Navy and again the Uberti was heavier but the action on Uberti was very nice. Three distinct clicks as the hammer was pulled back. The same Traditions Colt Navy did not have the crisp action of the Uberti.

Is there something in the design of the New Army that gives it that somewhat 'mushy' action or is this just a matter of finding another Uberti that has the feel that I like.

I expect a New Army (Uberti) will be coming home one day soon.

[Raider2000]

If you plan on shooting a decent ammount I would stick with the Steel framed guns because the Brass will have a tendency of streching due to the pressures of firing "my own experience as well as others."

To me the 1858 allways had a slightly different feel overall with lockup compared to any of the Colts designs but that isn't to say that they are bad just different, if the cylinder locks up tight & the action is smooth when cocking then you have a nice piece "most reproductions can use a little smoothing to get them perfect but are quite shootable right out of the box."

[mykeal]

Traditions imports Pietta guns, so you were actually comparing Uberti with Pietta. The stamping you observed was likely the Italian proof house marks: one is the letters PN under a five pointed star inside a garland, and the other is a coat of arms shield under that same star/garland logo. Those marks will ususally appear on the frame, the barrel and the cylinder.

The frame should also have a stamp with two capital letters inside a square - that's the date stamp which decodes to the year the gun was made.

Pietta's manufacturer's stamp is the capital letters FAP inside a diamond, or the letters F.ILLI PIETTA. Uberti uses a capital U inside an octagonal muzzle shape. The location of these manufacturer's marks varies, but they can often be found under the loading lever on the bottom of the barrel, and sometimes on the frame in front of the trigger guard.

The feel of the action you describe is more a function of the individual gun than it is the design. The designs of the actions are almost identical between the Colts and the Remingtons of that era, with the biggest difference being the hammer mainspring. The Italian clones can vary considerably from gun to gun within either manufacturer's products depending on small details involving gthe finish of action parts. Most will benefit from being used, that is, working the action over and over (do NOT dry fire them, however, as that will damage the nipples). Once you are familiar with them they can be improved by stoning the mating surfaces of the action parts to remove burrs and rough spots.

Which brings up a point: if you don't already have some it's a good time to invest in a good set of gunsmith's screwdrivers. The Italian clones, and I mean all of them, are not famous for having good, hard screw heads, and if you use a garden variety hardware store screwdriver to disassemble them you will, without any doubt, at some time, screw them up. They are just too soft to put up with an ill fitting screwdriver. And you may even mar the finish near the screws when the screwdriver slips out of the slot. It's a good $30 to protect your $200 gun.

[45Marlin carbine]

when cleaning remove the nipples and use never seize on the threads. if you 'trek' with it put Go-Jo white hand cleaner in a squeeze tube to wipe down with, remove cylinder and wipe bore with it also. give it a good cleaning when you get home. enjoy! I shot a feral hog with mine. a felt wad ovewrpowder will give tighter groups.

[johnm1]

I plan to stay with the steel framed model. I had heard about the frame stretching previously but even if it weren't an issue, I just like the look of the all steel frame.

I kinda figured that the action could vary from one specimen to another. Now the trick is to find as many 1858's as possible to get the one that feels right to me. I am sure even the ones I tried would function just fine. It seems to me the Uberti is the better quality of the two, Traditions/Pietta vs Uberti, and is a decent value for the small additional cost.

Are these reproduction guns made to a 'lesser' tolerance then modern guns? I'm assuming they are manufactured to the standards of the period they are reproducing either for authenticity or cost. But I don't know that.

I have been eying a set of screw drivers not just for this, but for my other guns as well.

Thanks all for the help. This is a very informative group.

[dalegribble]

I have a Pietta 1851 Navy and 1858 Army. Both are well made with good fit and finish. The Navy is better balanced with a smoother action. The Remington is larger heavier and easier to reload. Not quit as balanced as the Navy and the hammer is much stiffer to thumb back. The Remmy may be more durable in the long run, does anyone know how to adjust the hammer tension?

[Hafoc]

I wouldn't bet a great deal of money that an Uberti will always be better fitted than a Pietta. Aside from the differences from one gun to the next, either of those companies seems willing to build guns to a higher standard at a higher price, or the other way around. There are so many brands on the market, at so many price points, and most of them trace back to Uberti or Pietta in the end.

Black powder revolvers might be made to looser tolerances than modern ones in some ways just because they are meant to use black powder. Black powder can gum things up. You won't have to read far in this forum before you start to come across stories about that.

But somehow I think you're generally safe to assume that Italy in 2007 can mass-produce a better grade of steel than America could in 1860. A lot of the revolvers back then were iron, not steel at all. All else being equal, the modern repros are going to be stronger than the originals because their metal is better.

Where the modern replicas are going to fall down is in workmanship and fitting.

Revolvers in the Civil War era were not that durable in the first place, you understand. They weren't designed with the thought of Cowboy Action Shooting. The number of shots a modern shooter can expect to get out of his revolver in its lifetime would just boggle poor old Sam Colt.

Then the Italians started making replicas, and they knew full well that many were just going to be wall-hangers. Most of the rest wouldn't be fired much. It would be one in a million for anybody to have to use a repro for self-defense. They know this still, and it seems to me that because of it there's a tendency among them not to take the guns seriously. The guns are set up to work out of the box, usually, but they can be pretty rough, and misfitted parts tend to destroy themselves under heavy use.

If it comes to that, you can gunsmith the things. Or send them to an expert to have them tuned up. They're simple mechanisms and yours might work for the rest of your life without a failure. But they do tend to break down from time to time.

Dalegribble, I think what you're talking about would be adjusting the tension on the mainspring. Supposedly the Ubertis at least have a screw to let you adjust that. One trick I've read about with Single Action Armies is to put a leather (or plastic?) washer between the mainspring and the frame. No idea if that would work with a Remmie.

[mykeal]

There is another possibility that should be considered before attempting adjustment of the mainspring: friction and interference with the hammer.

I'd disassemble the action first and make sure there aren't some burrs or interferences in the frame/hammer interfaces first, and then make sure the hammer and other action moving parts are well cleaned and lubricated.

I understand this to be a new gun, and both Pietta and Uberti have been known to provide amazingly sufficient amounts of preservation material in their new guns.

Once you're sure the action is clean and free from burrs/interferences/corrosion and all the parts are moving freely, then you can attempt to adjust the mainspring tension with a wedge or some other such material. However, be careful not to overdo it, as a weak hammer is frequently the cause of failure to fire and/or allowing combustion gas that blows back through the nipple to dislodge the expired cap.

[Chris_B]

I wonder if a Colt with a barrel wedge is not a good first black powder revolver. I have one, and it is my first. It has some features that are nice

It is a pleasant thing to be able to push out the wedge, place a wood block against the cylinder, and jack the rammer to unseat the barrel if the pistol is fouled, or if a cap has jammed the action

It's also nice to remove the barrel and look through it when cleaning

[Raider2000]

There are both advantages & dissadvantages to either design.

1858 Remington's, top strap makes it a bit stronger framed revolver allowing them to shoot a slightly heavier charge than the 1860 Colt.
1860 Colt's, with the Barrel wedge, allowing it to be dissasembled to clear a jam "if necessary."
1858 Remington's, can accept preloaded cylinders faster than the 1860 Colt.
1860 Colt's would shoot nearly twice the ammunition through a single cylinder without cleaning compared to the 1858 Remington.

The list could go on.

Both weapons of that era are great as a beginner C&B revolver or even a good addition to those who are experienced with them to begin with.

I preferr the Colt 1851 Navy because it's grip fits me the best & is an awesome pointing weapon, & I like the power of the Colt 1860 Army & one day I'll order a set of grips, triggerguard & back strap for a 51' Navy to attach to my Pietta 60 Army to make it the best of both worlds.

[Hawg]

Howdy y'all, my first post here and if I may I'd like to stick my two cents in here first. Cabela's revolvers are made by Pietta cept for some of the pocket pistols which are made by Uberti and say so in the adds. There's nothing wrong with Pietta's quality. It's been on a par with Uberti since they got new CNC machinery several years ago. Remington's do have a muted click on half cock. All of them do including originals(at least the one I had did). Remingtons have a mainspring tension screw in the bottom front of the grip frame but that heavy hammer is what helps them prevent cap jams that Colt is famous for. You can alleviate that problem with a Colt by holding it slightly sideways or muzzle up when you cock it. Colt's have a notch cut into the hammer face to rest over the safety pins between the chambers. Sometimes caps get wedged in the slot and stick to the hammer. If you don't use the safety pins you can fill the slot with epoxy to prevent that. It is somewhat of a myth that old time cowboys only loaded 5 and kept the hammer down on an empty chamber. That got started much later in the early 20'th century. But that's neither here nor there. Brass frames will stretch over time with heavy loads but as long as you keep it at 30 grs. or less it'll last a lot of years. At bp pressures a Colt is no weaker than a Remington. It's said that because of the open top design and the rear sight being a notch in the hammer it's not as accurate as a Remmy. That's simply not true. You may have to try different load combos to find what your gun likes but that's true of all of them and if you have two they may not both like the same loads. Also Colt's have no problem digesting 40+ gr. loads as a regular load without coming apart. We're talking about bp pressures here remember. Somebody mentioned using a wooden block on the face of the cylinder to remove a Colt barrel. it's not necessary, just turn the cylinder so the ram comes down between chambers and lever it off. It's not going to hurt a thing and it's one less thing to keep up with. Well, that's my two cents for what it's worth. BTW I've been shooting these things for 38 years.

HH

[Hoss Fly]

Hawg-- Your first post here was longer than the last 20 i seen you write anywhere else

BTW folks, I know this guy from SASS & he knows his BP stuff

[Hawg]

Hey Hoss! No I don't get long winded very often but I wanted to make a first impression. Either good or bad.

[johnm1]

Thanks Hawg,

I think it is really going to come down to what feels right to me. If a Pietta has the right feel that will be the one. Although I didn't see one, I assume Pietta has a New Army model. As far as the top strap vs. no top strap, that is more personal preference rather then a real concern. I just like the way it looks. Nice to have you here.

[Hawg]

Thanks John. One thing to consider about the Remmy is if you have big hands the trigger guard may give you a rap on the second knuckle with heavier loads. The Pietta has thicker grips than the originals which feel better in the hand but puts your knuckle a tad closer to the guard. The Colt has longer grips and is just generally a better feel and is a more natural pointer but it all comes down to personal preference. Nothing wrong with the Remmy's. I have two, one of them I've had for 38 years. First bp gun I ever bought.

[bosipipes]

Does anyone know of a web site where we can see what Pietta has to offer.
I have done many search's but had no luck.