1911 grip and safety release

[MLeake]

... and that's fine by me.

But instead of worrying about grip, if somebody is trying to take my weapon, odds are I'm shifting my right foot clockwise away from them (assuming they're in front of me, and the gun is drawn - which it would have to be for a discussion of grip), pulling my gun hand back against my right hip, and punching them in the face with my left.

If they were grabbing from the rear, then the right foot and hip would swing counter-clockwise; the gun hand would stay near my hip but possibly punch slightly down and forward (away from the assailant), and I'd be setting up for a knee-stop kick with my left foot or a back left elbow strike.

The thing is, they can focus on the weapon. It's a tool. I'm the threat. It doesn't pay for me to lose sight of that.

The other thing is, I train these reflexes on a regular basis. Also, in the styles I practice, blocks are not standalone movements; they are usually secondary results of strikes.

Every so often, a "Why study MA when I have a gun?" thread pops up. This is why - you want to be able to retain your weapon, or achieve the draw, in order for the fact that you have the gun to do you any good.

So we can debate grips, but it's really a good idea to learn basic evasion/attack movement.

[pax]

MLeake,

No argument there.

Again, however, it's not about what you plan to do "if someone grabs for the gun." It's about what you will already be doing at the moment you are blindsided.

Yeah, I know: online, nobody ever gets blindsided. We all see it coming and avoid it. We can't get surprised by anything the BG does, ever.

Real life isn't quite that simple. In real life, people (even good guys!) get surprised sometimes. Your habitual grip can make a difference in those circumstances, allowing you to hold onto the gun during the split second it takes for you to realize someone is grabbing for your gun.

The solid grip gives you the time you need to work your well-trained retention technique. But it will probably make no difference at all if you don't have a retention technique or haven't regularly practiced it. It's not a question of "doing this instead of doing that." It's simply making a habit of holding the firearm in a manner that allows you to shoot well and is also most likely to work well for retention.

pax

[MLeake]

... for what it's worth, it's entirely possible that when I go to one-hand mode, I shift to thumb under, but if so I haven't noticed. Next time I can get to a range with a 1911, I'll check it out.

That'll be a while though, because I work defense contract stuff in theater, and my company issues S&W M&P9's.

Probably won't get to test to see what I do, when I am not thinking about it, until November.

As far as getting blindsided goes, I agree with you that it's a possibility that's always there - which is why I won't argue with the benefits of a stronger grip; it's exactly why I argue that some reflexes need to be trained to a (near) unconscious level.

As far as strength goes, my primary grip strength comes from my little finger, as a result of aikido open hand and sword practice (from little finger to base of thumb; softer grip by each finger as you get closer to index finger). I don't notice much difference in grip strength when I hold somebody's wrist or forearm if I move my thumb a bit either way, so in my case I doubt it makes much difference whether my thumb is high or low on the pistol.

But I will definitely put the question to the test in November.

Regards,

M

[Nnobby45]

Too bad we can't go out & try this in person. It's easy to show with a blue gun, difficult to describe using words only. But mark me down as agreeing with WC145 -- curling the thumbs down as in a fist creates a very strong, sure grip that works extremely well for gun retention but provides no impediment to shooting well.

Well, I was actually in the process of learning the thumb down advocated so strongly by Mas Ayoob. Then I took another one of Farnum's classes and the fist was history, since I got hollered at rather often. By the end of the first day, I was converted back to thumbs up.

[WC145]

I understand the points MLeake is making about martial arts practice and application. Like I said before, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I've been teaching kempo and training boxers and kickboxers since 1992, I have extensive experience in karate, jujitsu, wing chun, and escrima and spent a few years in the ring kickboxing. I have military and law enforcement experience (military long ago, currently a LEO). I'm sure that he would agree with what I have found over the years - what works in the dojo does not always work outside it. That doesn't negate the training and certainly you're better off with it than without, but it isn't always possible to make those things happen in a real fight.

If I'm dealing with someone while on duty things can go from calm and controlled to OH S**T in the blink of an eye, if I have my gun in hand the first stage of retention, before any of the movements, techniques, counters, etc, is my grip. And keep in mind that retention is not necessarily an issue of someone trying to take my weapon, it could likely be an issue of me maintaining control of it while fighting and trying to put it into use or, at the very least, trying to not drop it. Under those circumstances might I use my gun as a blunt instrument? Possibly. Are contact shots a viable option? Possibly. Might I have to shoot one handed under such circumstances? Probably. If I'm able to disengage and bring my gun to bear, will that strong "fist grip" be important to me when I'm trying to shoot my attacker and I'm breathing hard and all pumped up with adrenaline? Definitely. Do I train to do these things? Yes, I do.

I use a modified Weaver stance because it closely replicates the body and hand positioning for interviewing, fighting (my style anyway), and shooting - long guns and handguns. I use the "fist grip" and support with my off hand because it is strong and works with both pistols and revolvers (my duty gun is a 1911, my BUG is a snubby). By having one basic way for everything I never have to think about it, it is all second nature.

I know this is all rather old school simple and not particularly sophisticated, and probably not quite as fast on the range as "thumbs high", but IMO, simple is better and the KISS principle helps to keep Mr. Murphy at bay.

[MLeake]

WC145, I agree entirely, no battle plan survives initial engagement.

But you also are well aware of "train like we fight." We can't train for every possibility out there, but building solid foundations and reflexes, and training a couple of default options, can go a long way toward adapting to whatever may come.

I also use a Weaver stance. Partly because it's what the Gunny taught when I was temporarily attached to a Navy security department while in between phases of flight training, and partly because the basic posture is pretty much a front stance, which I grew comfortable with when I did some kempo in the early 90's.

I also use the push-pull, but with thumbs higher and parallel. Thumb down in a fist feels awkward for me when using the push-pull.

When I get home, I'll play around with the one-handed and let you know what I find myself defaulting to.

[raimius]

Sounds like a trade-off to me.
High-thumbs: faster follow-up and less secure grip
Fist: Really secure but slightly slower

In a grappling situation, the secure grip is more important, but in a distance engagement the quicker follow-up might rule the day.