New 223 brass for AR - now what

[Nick_C_S]

Last week, I poked my head into my LGS to look for some #41 primers (per the current post running about AR slam fires).

They had no #41's, but I did run into four 100ct bags of new Winchester 223 brass. I bought three - leaving one behind for someone else - a habit left over from the last shortage.

So now I have 300 pcs of new 223 brass I'll be loading for AR-15. I've been loading for handguns since 1984, but new to rifle - having loaded only a total of about 400 rounds or so.

So now what? I chamber checked a hand full of them and they all dropped right in and sat flush. I measured about a dozen of them and they were amazingly consistent - running between 1.752 & 1.754". Only one fell outside this at 1.751".

I will measure them all and trim if needed. I will chamfer and deburr all of them.

But is there any need to resize them? To me, it would seem not. Am I missing something?

[Kwik2010]

I always size new to me brass new or fired. If not for anything else but piece of mind. Takes all the dings and dents out. And it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling knowing I'm beginning with freshly sized brass.

[Stats Shooter]

Two reasons to run them through your sizing die.

1: Some necks may be out of round a little (or a lot). Perhaps not enough for the naked eye to detect. Running through the sizing die will make sure they are all perfectly round.

2: the necks are sized by Winchester, so if you begin load development without sizing first, the load will be developed based on Winchester case forming die. Then When you run them through your sizing die, the neck may be tighter, or more loose there by changing how your load shoots.

We have all probably loaded new brass without prepping it at some point before, but bulk packaged brass has a decent chance of some deformed necks

[2ndtimer]

FWIW, I visually inspect, and test chambering, and if they pass, I usually just neck size to make sure neck tension is consistent. Lubing and removing lube from cases is second only to trimming in my least favorite reloading steps.

[Geezerbiker]

I normally size and trim all new brass. However awhile back I bought a 250 pack of General Dynamics brass from Midway. These are the nicest new cases I've ever seen even better than Lapua. No sizing or trimming was needed. To bad they're no longer available...

Tony

[Unclenick]

I don't think I've ever resized new brass. I don't want the extra neck working. It often won't fit my chamber as closely as brass I resize to my length of choice, but running new brass through a sizing die won't grow it to the volume of my resized cases anyway, so I don't see the point. Long ago, the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit concluded new brass tended to be more accurate in their rifles than resized brass and they gave up on saving their fired brass to reload. While I expect they just weren't reloading to maximum potential at the time and were probably having to reload ammo to a standard size so it could be run in any of their guns, it still tells you that new brass performance is nothing to sneeze at.

I used to follow Glen Zediker's recommendation to buy factory primed bulk brass and just put my standard load in it. This recommendation was in the context of Service Rifle match shooting (not benchrest or even F-class match shooting). But I haven't seen factory primed new bulk brass available for some time. It used to be common.

Pressure's aren't an issue because the peak pressure in any round peaking over about 30,000 psi will be determined by the volume the case expands to in the chamber, not by its resized volume. So the load won't differ for the new brass over resized brass from that cause. Difference in neck tension will affect loads a little, but I recommend you test to see if you can discern a difference in group size and velocity SD before resizing the new brass.

I usually sort new brass for neck wall runout and separate the most consistent ones out for matches. If I find a dented case mouth (not uncommon) I have one of the Sinclair die bodies that hold outside neck turning mandrels and expand the dent with that, as its gradual taper does the job gently and without pulling the necks off axis. The carbide mandrels are especially low drag on the neck and smooth operating. A very bad dent may need rough expanding before going in with the mandrel. That round will be set aside for practice. A more pointed taper like a Phillips-head screwdriver or even a center punch tip can go in and you can pull the dent open most of the way with that, first.

[hdwhit]

...running between 1.752 & 1.754". Only one fell outside this at 1.751".

The maximum length for the brass is 1.760 and the trim-to length is 1.750. You have already established that your brass is comfortably within that range, so trimming should not be needed.

I resize all new-to-me brass since I know that what goes through my sizer will hold the bullet tightly, will feed reliably and will not stretch too much as it is fired.

[JeepHammer]

Don't know about any crop of recent slam fires in AR clones...

Been loading .223 & 5.56 NATO brass for ARs since the mid 70s.
For what it's worth...

Loading for ONE SPECIFIC rifle, just crank down sizing die until reloads feed & fire without issue.
A full length resizing die is pretty well a requirement, AR cases like to bloat/swell pretty far down the sides.

To produce rounds that will feed/fire in virtually all properly chambered rifles, get a high quality case quick gauge. (I like LE Wilson because of price & what they check)
Don't rely on a 'Plunk' test for AR cases, the chamber lies because of the radius on the barrel inlet and the barrel nut so the bolt can lock.
Other than a lot of NON-Repeatable trial an error, a case gauge is the only way to reproduce results.

99.99% of the time, if your brass, then loaded rounds pass the gauge, they will cycle fine.

Don't get lost in the details!
If you aren't shooting a bench rifle, you don't need to build bench rifle ammo.
Push back to size, check for length, and reload.
Field rifle ammo (practice ammo, range ammo, ect) has to be SAFE, but it doesn't have to be 'Perfect' in every way...

Match ammo takes more time & preparation, and bench ammo will drive you nuts preparing cases in volume.

Buy reloading information for .223/5.56 in general, but keep an eye out for AR specific reloading information, a lot of times addendums from powder & bullets manufacturers is free, so keep an eye out for it!

[JeepHammer]

This might help you with bottle neck rifle cases.

Headspace in YOUR rifle won't be exactly on specification, just a fact of life.
Just keep that in mind, nothing is 'Exact', accept that an life goes on...

The 'Headspace' in any given .223/5.56 is determined from a closed bolt face to the 'Datum Line' or Datum Point' on the case,
Where the case is *Supposed* to contact the chamber (at the case shoulder when everything goes correctly).

This should help you visualize the situation,

Click the Photobucket link below, the image *May* appear for the Datum Line.
Photobucket has changed it's policy about linking directly in, so I'm looking for a new (free) host if anyone has any ideas...



*IF* you are reloading for one specific rifle, you simply screw the die down in the press a little at a time until the cases fit & function once reloaded.
This is the 'Trial & Error' method, it's slow, and since there isn't any specific measurement taken so it's not repeatable.
If the sizing die is moved/removed you have to do the trial and error all over again.

With a case gauge, you get upper and lower limits, a 'Go/NoGo' range via a groove cut into the case head end of the gauge.
Case sticking up past the higher lip, the die needs to be lowered.
The case dropping past the lower lip, the die needs to raised up a little.
----

The second measurement the case gauge makes super easy is the Datum Line to case mouth length..
This is where case length trimming comes in...

This type of gauge has a 'Go/NoGo' groove cut into the case mouth end.

Cases bloat when fired, they expand to the chamber walls, that bloat actually makes the case SHORTER.
When you push case walls back in where they belong, that brass is pushed back up.
After a few firing, the case stretches enough it may have to be trimmed.
The case gauge will tell you very quickly when that happens.

The third is the case body. All cases bloat, that bloat needs to be pushed back in where it belongs.
AR style rifles have an UNSUPPORTED lower chamber, and AR fired cases like to bloat down low and a lot of tighter AR chambers will have issues.
This issue has made 'Small Base' dies real popular since they reach a little further down the case sides...


The side case profile cut into the case gauge will be a little 'Loose', but will get your case bodies fitting into everything but the tightest chambers.
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When you get a little more experienced, you can use a caliper with the case gauge to get pretty well precise measurements of you MEASURED Datum length.

You simply measure an UNSIZED case, dropped into the gauge, from the bottom (mouth end) of the gauge to the head of the case.
This gives you the EXPANDED case length, your 'Base Line' measurement.

Then you simply size the case MINIMALLY, a little at a time, until the case fits back into the chamber.
When it fits, that is your MEASURED, REPEATABLE measurement, repeatable because the gauge & caliper will allow you to adjust the die to repeat the die positioning.
----

This gauge also works as a FINAL INSPECTION quick gauge.
Drop loaded rounds into this gauge and it will tell you instantly if the shoulder bucked when bullet was inserted or crimp procedure failed.
The round simply won't drop into the gauge down to the 'Go/NoGo' groove area.

If feeding reliability is an issue, this is a really big deal!
This is simply the easiest way to do that final inspection I've ever found.

----

One addition I made to my case gauge is a 'Cartridge Over All Length' adapter.
It's simply a little 'L' bracket and hose clamp... about $3.

I simply put a properly length measured loaded round into the case gauge,
Position the 'L' bracket on the side of the case gauge so the leg of the 'L' contacts the nose of the bullet,
And tighten the hose clamp around gauge body & clamp, holding the 'L' bracket to the side of the gauge.

When a loaded round is dropped in, the round in in the 'Go' zone, and the bullet is nosed up to the 'L' bracket, I have a VERY FAST visual reference to know the bullet didn't get seated too deep or too long.

[RC20]

Seeing as how ARs are not that accurate (at least in my sub 1/2 MOA world) I think re-size is a waste.

On the other hand, all new brass gets the trim job (tri cutter of two types)

Not that its long, but it puts a nice chamfer in the mouth that the bullets slide in more evenly in my opinion.

And it was nice of the OP to leave a bag. Take what you need but leave the rest, Joan Baez circa 70s.

[T. O'Heir]

CCI #41 primers are nothing more than magnum primers. Magnum primers are about the powder used and how cold it is and nothing more. Slam Fires are caused by improperly loaded ammo, not the rifle.
Anyway, all new brass requires checking for length, trimming, deburring as required only, chamfering the case mouth and FL resizing.
Headspace has nothing whatever to do with the case. It's a rifle manufacturing tolerance only that allows the use of multiple manufacturer ammo.

[Marco Califo]

As noted above, each rifle's chamber is different. If you own more than one rifle in a given chambering, you have a choice: SAAMI Spec should work in all. OR You can tailor loads to each rifle. For 308 I use SAAMI. For my 223, I exploit the differences but have different sets of ammo. In my case the longer 223 wont chamber in a tight chamber.

[JeepHammer]

Time & Number Of Functions On Trimming...

MISTAKES!
The biggest mistake I see is trimming for length BEFORE sizing the case!
The neck is expanded oversize so common indexing pilots don't fit snugly,
Trimming before pushing case side walls back in means the case will 'Grow' lengthwise when sized, screwing g up the trim length.

----

The most common is a flat face cutter (Single Cut) with a 'Pilot' that slips into the case mouth.
These are REAL common in the hand cranked type.
Drill power kits are available...

The biggest issue I have with these trimmers is the work required,
Unlock, insert case, lock down, trim, unlock, remove case, champfer inside, champfer outside...

The champfers are with a hand tool, no stops so every case will be slightly different.

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The second type is the Datum Line trimmers.
These index the case off the shoulder/Datum Line on the case and usually don't use a pilot to index since the units normally index off the outside of the case neck.

Again, size the case first,
Then trim to length.
Most of the Datum line indexer/trimmers are flat face trimmers and still have to be hand champfered.
'The World's Finest Trimmer' is one of these flat face type and why I don't use them.

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The 'Trim It II' brand isn't cheap (about $130), but it's a 3 angle trimmer, cuts to length & does both champfers in one motion.
Three angle trimmers MUST have sized cases so the neck is a CONSISTENT diameter.
The cutter MUST center over the WALL of the case neck, that takes a consistent case neck size to do.

These trimmers are super fast, they will trim a case in half second using a hand drill to power them.

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I honestly don't worry about any particular or given neck length on AR ammo.
I've been reloading since the mid 70s for everything from bench rifles to Buffalo guns, and experience tells me you don't loose any accuracy by sizing to SAAMI, or to fit your chamber, then trimming to minimum and not trimming the case again, even after 20 or 30 loadings.

Due diligence with a case gauge will tell you at a glance if your SIZED cases need trimming.
Once you get into the habit of using a case gauge, it gets handier Everytime you sit down at the bench!

The neck is only there to hold the bullet centered with the bore, the VERY SLIGHT change in length has about zero effect on gripping the bullet.
The secondary function of the neck is to seal up gasses, and trimming to minimum doesn't effect that in any noticable way in an AR.

[Nick_C_S]

Thanks for all the replies. I value everybody's opinion.

I have two AR's. The upper receivers are identical and purchased at the same time, from the same manufacturer. They likely went down the assembly line (whatever that looks like) next to each other. (Same with the lowers - their S/N's are sequential) So I'm rather assuming that their chambers are probably pretty darn close.

As for trimming: So far, I see no need. Of the ones I measured, all were within spec (see OP). All cases will be measured prior to any loading process; so that may change.

The trimmer I use is the type that fits onto a drill and you simply push the case in to trim, until it stops. There is no pilot. This is the only method I've used to trim .223 and it seems to work just fine.

I'm tending to agree with Unclenick about seeing no need to work the case neck any more than needed. I bought 300 pieces. The first 100 will be experimented with (i.e. likely reloaded several times - going through the usual reconditioning process). The remaining 200 will likely be loaded as new and stored.

I'm also in no hurry to do any of this. I just fired 130 rounds of factory ammo last week, and plan of using this once-fired brass for some further personal learning on .223. So this new brass we're discussing isn't on the front burner.

For further perspective: This is loading season for me. My load bench is in the garage and it has been a very hot summer. It's finally cool enough to get out there and I have lots of handgun ammo that needs replenishing. Not to mention all the other life stuff (family, grandchildren, part-time job, etc.) that's going on. All said, I have plenty of time to contemplate this new brass thing before proceeding.

Thanks again everybody.

[mikld]

I'm just an average reloader/shooter, with no aspirations of getting 1/2" groups out of my centerfire rifles. But, I do like a known starting point, sorta a "ground zero", for my components so I F/L size and measure length on all brass new to me...

[JeepHammer]

Don't assume the chambers are cut the same, or the chamber extension nuts were installed the same.
Most AR manufacturers buy their steel parts, trigger group barrels, bolts & bolt carriers, etc. And crank out the aluminum parts, assemble the parts.
Almost no one makes the plastic, steel & aluminum parts in house, all designed from scratch to work together...

The bottom line is, when you make rounds that fit & function in both rifles you are there.
A case gauge will help, but it's not 100% required, just speeds things up so much it's usually worth the $20 and it will diagnose most common problems much faster.

I hear you about the heat!
I can put more cloths on, but you can only take so much off before people freak out!

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

CCI #41 primers are nothing more than magnum primers. Magnum primers are about the powder used and how cold it is and nothing more.

Actually, the #41's also have a shallower anvil angle to reduce sensitivity to military H-test standards. You can call CCI and ask. The priming mix under the shallower anvil is the same as their #450 magnum primer, though, and so is the cup thickness . Magnum primers are about making enough gas to adequately pressurize the larger magnum case volumes (hence the name) for ignition. That they put more heat energy into the case in the process is why they help with low temperatures and part of why they help ignite powders with heavy deterrent concentrations.


Nick,

You do want to inspect for obvious defects. The last time I bought new bulk Winchester .223 cases, two had no flash holes; just solid bottoms to the primer pockets.


Jeephammer,

Your posted photo has been hacked by Photobucket. Following the link takes you to that same fuel gauge image.

[Nick_C_S]

You do want to inspect for obvious defects.

I will. I'm no stranger to buying new bulk brass (new to .223 howerver). Like range pick-up, they require the same scrutiny. Thanks as always.

The last time I bought new bulk Winchester .223 cases, two had no flash holes; just solid bottoms to the primer pockets.

How'd those perform?

[Metal god]

I've not resized new brass but as stated , close inspection is good , I then like to throw a random 10 to 20 through a LE Wilson case gauge just to make sure nothing is to out of whack . I load for 6 different AR's , three 223 Wylde chambers and three 5.56 chambers . They all use the same sized case . Which means one rifle the shoulder is bumped back .0025 , another is bumped back .004 the rest are .003 .

I use the Hornady case headspace gauge to measure my fire formed cases . How ever unlike bolt guns where I tend to only need to measure a few to get the accurate measurement . With semi auto's I measure between 10 and 20 cases to get my measurement . I've found they don't come out consistently fire formed at times . So measuring many tends to produce a pattern that I feel I can see . Also , I'll add that lighter loads tend to give me more inconsistent fire formed cases then full power NATO loads . Because of this I like to use NATO spec Federal cartridges when getting my fire formed measurements .

I forget what manufacture you have but as JH stated many AR "manufactures" don't actually make the main parts like barrel , BCG , so even though your barrels are from the same company at the same time . That does not mean they were on the line together . Example : PSA buys all there premium barrels from FN and have them bulk shipped to them . They then just start grabbing out of the box and start building . Even if the barrel were sequential from FN does not mean PSA is looking at your order and making sure your two barrels match up . At one point Del-Ton was getting all there barrels from Mossberg .

The point there is don't assume your chambers are likely similar . They might be but are just as likely if not more so to be quite different . Well while still being with in spec of course . I'll add it is helpful they are from the same manufacture rather then one from PSA and the other from Del-ton let say because that would raise the likely hood they are different .

Now I feel I'm rambling So to sum ALL that up , no I don't size new brass

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Nick C S

How'd those perform?

I put them up on a display stage, but no singing or dancing occurred.

Actually, they did support the comment on another forum by a fellow who'd been part of a government contract to test competing brands and types of LE handgun ammunition. He said that by the time you put a couple hundred thousand rounds downrange, you'll find commercial ammunition occasionally presents all the same problems handloaders can have, plus a few that handloads never have. Duds due to missing primer flash holes would be one of the latter type. Another he found was a cartridge with an empty (no lead core) jacket seated in it. No handloader would let an empty jacket get that far, but a machine can. He also found all the usual suspects, like backward seated primers, over and under charged cases, severe dings, etc.