M1 Issues

'88Scrat · May 10, 2018, 01:08 AM

So I took my CMP Garands to the range today and I gotta admit, I ran into some disconcerning problems.

First, I've been loading en bloc clips for years now and I've never had as much trouble as I did today. By loading I mean actually putting 8 rounds in the clip before loading it in the rifle. Seemed like no matter what I did they always ended up goofy somehow. For example one round would be so loose that it would wobble around or you'd get in all 8 rounds and see that they would bunch up in one spot or a few rounds wouldn't seat right and stick out further from the others. Very frustrating, spent more time cursing my en blocs than actually shooting. Never had this problem before and it made loading the rifle very difficult and often it wouldn't cycle right.

Second problem seemed to be with the rifles themselves. Both had the same issue apparently. When I got a good bloc of 8 rounds (one that was uniform and tight) and tried to load it the bolt would always try to close almost as soon as I inserted the clip. Seriously, I'd get the clip down 1/8 of the way and bolt would try to slam home. Occured with consistency on both rifles.

Help...

'88Scrat · May 10, 2018, 08:45 AM

Here are some images of the clips. This is REALLY frustrating! I've never had this problem before.

Not sure why the picture is so big...

{Edit: You had a photo over 4000 pixels wide. you need to resize to no more than 1024 at most. I have reduced it by cropping and resizing to 800 pixels wide here. Unclenick}

MagnumWill · May 10, 2018, 09:07 AM

First off, there’s a high likelihood those clips are way too tight. I purchased clips (oddly enough off of Amazon) through AmmoGarand, it’s a guy named Rob Morris who has vast amounts of Garand stuff. Those clips are supposedly a last run of GI en bloc clips, and i’ve found that even those ones were too tight, as in the lips are too close together. Work them apart a few times and compare to try to open them up a little bit. The 8th round should be tight to get in there, but not a challenge.

Second, check your clip latch spring in your trigger group. The en bloc clip presses it down when inserted and it’s what releases the bolt when pressure is taken off the clip. Again, for all we know this could also be a poor quality en bloc clip issue, where its shape is forcing that clip latch spring to fully engage too early. I was having the opposite problem with mine, the clip latch spring was so stiff it was challenging to get the clip down far enough with one hand to actually allow the bolt to release.

I also had two Garands for a while, one was a club loaner but really helped me diagnose issues. I was having issues with the rounds jamming on the barrel face with my personal Garand, and the loaner never did that. I put that same exact clip in the loaner and sure enough it did the same exact thing. I used a good clip (little did I know they were “good” ones) and the problem disappeared from both of them.

So far I’ve noticed that the only thing a Garand can’t reconcile is a bad clip. A worn op rod, sloppy trigger housing, everything else seems to be pretty resilient. But a badly shaped clip can cause all manner of seemingly rotating and elusive problems.

MagnumWill · May 10, 2018, 09:58 AM

I just re-read your post again, and didn’t realize the bolt was releasing so early. It almost sounds like it’s not successfully locking back and allowing the clip latch spring to actuate it’s release, is it’s pretty far down there.

tangolima · May 10, 2018, 10:42 AM

Are those rifles and clips new to you? Did they have the same problems before?

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

T. O'Heir · May 10, 2018, 12:02 PM

Please reduce the size of your pictures. A 4032 x 3024 of the bullets doesn't show much either.
I'd be sending those clips back to AmmoGarand. I suspect they're bent and/or twisted.

30Cal · May 10, 2018, 04:03 PM

As far as the rifles, make sure the oprod is latched and not just precariously perched against the follower.

Model12Win · May 10, 2018, 05:52 PM

Never had this problem with mine. Good stopper with soft tip 150 grainers.

Orlando · May 10, 2018, 06:53 PM

Simple, use USGI enblocs

agtman · May 10, 2018, 07:03 PM

What make of en bloc clips are you using? USGI? ... Overly-parked Greek clips that come loaded with the HXP ammo in bandoliers in the spam cans? ... Chi-Com crap ordered off E-bay?

I would suspect the clips are the issue first, before trying to decipher it as a rifle issue.

'88Scrat · May 10, 2018, 07:38 PM

I picked up the clips at a local gun show. I didn't pay much attention when I bought 'em. Honestly didn't think there could be that much difference between one make or another. Most aren't marked but I do have one that says CMP on the back. Sadly it is one that was giving me issues.

Of the 6 en blocs I currently have 5 are marked AEC-3 and one is marked CMP-9. All 6 of them gave me a fight when loading 'em up. Not sure if that helps but there it is.

agtman · May 10, 2018, 07:54 PM

Quote:

I picked up the clips at a local gun show. I didn't pay much attention when I bought 'em.

Well, that's your problem right there: gun show dealer junk. Likely as not, he sold you Chi-Com repop crap.

Quote:

Honestly didn't think there could be that much difference between one make or another.

Well, it's the difference between an M1 that runs like a well-tuned sewing machine, ... and an aggravating jammomatic.

Quote:

Most aren't marked but I do have one that says CMP on the back. Sadly it is one that was giving me issues.

CMP? ... They're making their own clips now?

Charlie98 · May 10, 2018, 11:20 PM

My trick on loading en blocs is... put 7 in and make sure they are lined up and square, then pop the 8th round in like loading a regular double-stack AR mag. Never had the problems with them that you describe.

Reloadron · May 11, 2018, 07:59 PM

As to the bolt auto releasing before the clip has latched (release timing early):
1. Bullet guide accelerator bearing point too long (relative to other lower action parts)
2. Follower arm bent.
3. Follower arm pivot pin hole mislocated.
4. Excessive wear or alteration at operating rod catch engagement edges.
5. Excessive wear or alteration at operating rod engagement hooks.
6. Clip latch worn, altered or damaged (late clip latch problem)
7. Clip latch spring weak, broken or wrong spring (late clip latching problem).

My experiences have generally revolved around #1 and #7 finding broken clip latch springs. The above trouble shooting aides are from The U.S. Gas Operated Service Rifles a shop manual By; Jerry Kuhnhausen.

As to the clips. Yes, some can be tight and difficult to load. There was also an issue with the Greek HXP clips and certain Greek HXP ammunition sold by the CMP. Look at the bottom center of your clips. You should see who made the clips. Some clips are not marked. Also what ammunition? Some 30-06 ammunition has issues with the extractor groove cut and how that cut aligns with the clip at the base. Sometimes clips are very heavily parkerized which causes problems. When a clip is properly loaded with correctly sized ammunition the case rims should be in the groove at the base of the clip. So much depends on the ammo and the clips.

<EDIT> Here is a listing of Garand 8 Round Clip markings including your CMP clip made by Aggressive Engineering Corp (New commercial run for CMP).</EDIT>

Ron

May 10, 2018, 09:07 AM	#3
MagnumWill Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Location: Central Colorado Posts: 1,001	First off, there’s a high likelihood those clips are way too tight. I purchased clips (oddly enough off of Amazon) through AmmoGarand, it’s a guy named Rob Morris who has vast amounts of Garand stuff. Those clips are supposedly a last run of GI en bloc clips, and i’ve found that even those ones were too tight, as in the lips are too close together. Work them apart a few times and compare to try to open them up a little bit. The 8th round should be tight to get in there, but not a challenge. Second, check your clip latch spring in your trigger group. The en bloc clip presses it down when inserted and it’s what releases the bolt when pressure is taken off the clip. Again, for all we know this could also be a poor quality en bloc clip issue, where its shape is forcing that clip latch spring to fully engage too early. I was having the opposite problem with mine, the clip latch spring was so stiff it was challenging to get the clip down far enough with one hand to actually allow the bolt to release. I also had two Garands for a while, one was a club loaner but really helped me diagnose issues. I was having issues with the rounds jamming on the barrel face with my personal Garand, and the loaner never did that. I put that same exact clip in the loaner and sure enough it did the same exact thing. I used a good clip (little did I know they were “good” ones) and the problem disappeared from both of them. So far I’ve noticed that the only thing a Garand can’t reconcile is a bad clip. A worn op rod, sloppy trigger housing, everything else seems to be pretty resilient. But a badly shaped clip can cause all manner of seemingly rotating and elusive problems. __________________ Those who hammer their swords into plow shares will plow for those who didn't... Last edited by MagnumWill; May 10, 2018 at 09:56 AM.

May 10, 2018, 09:58 AM	#4
MagnumWill Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Location: Central Colorado Posts: 1,001	I just re-read your post again, and didn’t realize the bolt was releasing so early. It almost sounds like it’s not successfully locking back and allowing the clip latch spring to actuate it’s release, is it’s pretty far down there. __________________ Those who hammer their swords into plow shares will plow for those who didn't...

May 10, 2018, 12:02 PM	#6
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Please reduce the size of your pictures. A 4032 x 3024 of the bullets doesn't show much either. I'd be sending those clips back to AmmoGarand. I suspect they're bent and/or twisted. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

May 10, 2018, 07:38 PM	#11
'88Scrat Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2011 Location: Kansas Posts: 549	I picked up the clips at a local gun show. I didn't pay much attention when I bought 'em. Honestly didn't think there could be that much difference between one make or another. Most aren't marked but I do have one that says CMP on the back. Sadly it is one that was giving me issues. Of the 6 en blocs I currently have 5 are marked AEC-3 and one is marked CMP-9. All 6 of them gave me a fight when loading 'em up. Not sure if that helps but there it is. __________________ BOOM Last edited by '88Scrat; May 10, 2018 at 07:49 PM.

May 10, 2018, 11:20 PM	#13
Charlie98 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2006 Location: Great state of Texas Posts: 1,077	My trick on loading en blocs is... put 7 in and make sure they are lined up and square, then pop the 8th round in like loading a regular double-stack AR mag. Never had the problems with them that you describe. __________________ _______________ "I have this pistol pointed at your heart!" "That is my least vulnerable spot."

May 10, 2018, 01:08 AM	#1
'88Scrat Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2011 Location: Kansas Posts: 549	M1 Issues So I took my CMP Garands to the range today and I gotta admit, I ran into some disconcerning problems. First, I've been loading en bloc clips for years now and I've never had as much trouble as I did today. By loading I mean actually putting 8 rounds in the clip before loading it in the rifle. Seemed like no matter what I did they always ended up goofy somehow. For example one round would be so loose that it would wobble around or you'd get in all 8 rounds and see that they would bunch up in one spot or a few rounds wouldn't seat right and stick out further from the others. Very frustrating, spent more time cursing my en blocs than actually shooting. Never had this problem before and it made loading the rifle very difficult and often it wouldn't cycle right. Second problem seemed to be with the rifles themselves. Both had the same issue apparently. When I got a good bloc of 8 rounds (one that was uniform and tight) and tried to load it the bolt would always try to close almost as soon as I inserted the clip. Seriously, I'd get the clip down 1/8 of the way and bolt would try to slam home. Occured with consistency on both rifles. Help... __________________ BOOM

May 10, 2018, 10:42 AM	#5
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,827	Are those rifles and clips new to you? Did they have the same problems before? -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

May 10, 2018, 04:03 PM	#7
30Cal Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Posts: 1,264	As far as the rifles, make sure the oprod is latched and not just precariously perched against the follower.

May 10, 2018, 05:52 PM	#8
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Never had this problem with mine. Good stopper with soft tip 150 grainers.

May 10, 2018, 06:53 PM	#9
Orlando Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2009 Posts: 352	Simple, use USGI enblocs

May 10, 2018, 07:03 PM	#10
agtman Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: midwest Posts: 2,374	What make of en bloc clips are you using? USGI? ... Overly-parked Greek clips that come loaded with the HXP ammo in bandoliers in the spam cans? ... Chi-Com crap ordered off E-bay? I would suspect the clips are the issue first, before trying to decipher it as a rifle issue.

May 11, 2018, 07:59 PM	#14
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	As to the bolt auto releasing before the clip has latched (release timing early): 1. Bullet guide accelerator bearing point too long (relative to other lower action parts) 2. Follower arm bent. 3. Follower arm pivot pin hole mislocated. 4. Excessive wear or alteration at operating rod catch engagement edges. 5. Excessive wear or alteration at operating rod engagement hooks. 6. Clip latch worn, altered or damaged (late clip latch problem) 7. Clip latch spring weak, broken or wrong spring (late clip latching problem). My experiences have generally revolved around #1 and #7 finding broken clip latch springs. The above trouble shooting aides are from *The U.S. Gas Operated Service Rifles a shop manual* By; Jerry Kuhnhausen. As to the clips. Yes, some can be tight and difficult to load. There was also an issue with the Greek HXP clips and certain Greek HXP ammunition sold by the CMP. Look at the bottom center of your clips. You should see who made the clips. Some clips are not marked. Also what ammunition? Some 30-06 ammunition has issues with the extractor groove cut and how that cut aligns with the clip at the base. Sometimes clips are very heavily parkerized which causes problems. When a clip is properly loaded with correctly sized ammunition the case rims should be in the groove at the base of the clip. So much depends on the ammo and the clips. <EDIT> *Here is a listing of Garand 8 Round Clip markings* including your CMP clip made by Aggressive Engineering Corp (New commercial run for CMP).</EDIT> Ron Last edited by Reloadron; May 11, 2018 at 08:09 PM.