200 vs. 230gr .45 ACP's

Brutus · December 15, 2018, 06:46 PM

A new conundrum, I've been shooting 200gr. plated FP in my .45's for years.
All my .45's are adjustable sight 5" target models so no problem, until I made my latest purchase which is a fixed sight 4-1/4" commander which shoots my 200gr. handloads about 2" low.
Gun is regulated for 230gr. ball ammo which is right on target. This is a self defense gun so I will stick with 230gr. Speer gold dot ammo for it.

Problem is I have about 2,000 200gr. bullets on hand for target practice and I really don't want to start buying 230 grainers for this gun.

What reloading options do I have to raise the poi 2"?

USSR · December 15, 2018, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Problem is I have about 2,000 200gr. bullets on hand for target practice and I really don't want to start buying 230 grainers for this gun.

What reloading options do I have to raise the poi 2"?

If the expense of proper bullets for your gun is a problem, just get a mould and cast your own. Wait until you see the smile on your face when you realize you can load .45 ACP for less than .22 rimfire.

Don

Charlie98 · December 15, 2018, 07:40 PM

Do what I do (sort of)... shoot 200's in the adjustable sight models, and 230's in the fixed.

1MoreFord · December 15, 2018, 08:25 PM

You could also replace (or file down) the front sight so POA/POI are the same.

ms6852 · December 15, 2018, 09:35 PM

Does not make sense that the 200 grain would hit 2" lower than the 230 grainers. I would still use the 200 grainers and adjust aim from 6'oclock to 12 o'clock. It appears that the 3/4'' inch loss in sight radius is making you aim low.

USSR · December 16, 2018, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Does not make sense that the 200 grain would hit 2" lower than the 230 grainers.

Makes perfect sense. A lighter, faster bullet exits the muzzle sooner than a heavier bullet and is influenced less by muzzle rise during recoil.

Don

polyphemus · December 16, 2018, 08:33 AM

You can run 230g and 200g at the same V,at that rate the smaller bullet would have less muzzle energy, to compensate for the loss you'd drive it faster.
Muzzle rise takes place after the bullet exits and would have no effect on aim,by rights you should see no significant difference.

std7mag · December 16, 2018, 09:37 AM

I have no answer, as i shoot 185s out of mine.

Brutus · December 16, 2018, 09:38 AM

Thanks for the feedback, odd that after all these years of reloading this is the first time I've run into this. Guess what I was hoping for was a slightly hotter/milder load that would raise the point of impact with the 200 grainers.

74A95 · December 16, 2018, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polyphemus

Muzzle rise takes place after the bullet exits and would have no effect on aim,by rights you should see no significant difference.

Umm, are you not aware that the gun moves before the bullet exits? Muzzle rise / gun movement starts as soon as the bullet starts to move. It's explained by Newton's third law.

polyphemus · December 16, 2018, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Umm, are you not aware that the gun moves before the bullet exits?

Yes I am,This motion in particular is called recoil and has an opposite direction to the bullet's.That being longitudinal.
Now muzzle rise or flip,that being vertical,is caused by the slide as it suddenly stops its rearward motion by then the bullet is long gone.

mikld · December 16, 2018, 12:29 PM

I am not an expert, but I don't think slide movement and stopping (slamming into the stop) applies here. As mentioned by the gents above, muzzle movement starts when the bullet starts to move. How would you explain this same POI shift in a revolver? How else can you explain a lower point of impact with a lighter bullet? To me the explanations above are logical and obvious (and I've experienced this same phenomenon with my 200 gr bullets vs 230 gr bullets in my 45 ACPs)...

Metal god · December 16, 2018, 12:45 PM

The couple things I’d point out is that the gun will only move perfectly straight back if your hand is directly centered on the center of the bore axis . When the hand is below this axis you create a pivot point allowing the muzzle to rise . Also unless you’re shooting at a very short distance . It does not take to much muzzle movement to create a POI shift . Anyone that’s had a laser on a handgun and tried to hold it perfectly still on a target 30’ away knows . Even when you feel you’re holding it still the laser is moving around an inch or two

polyphemus · December 16, 2018, 01:51 PM

200g,230g
Dozens of loads and a handful of bullet designs to boot.
I would suggest to OP that he load the same type bullet to the same muzzle energy level and then steady rest test them for discrepancies in aim.

74A95 · December 16, 2018, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polyphemus

Yes I am,This motion in particular is called recoil and has an opposite direction to the bullet's.That being longitudinal.
Now muzzle rise or flip,that being vertical,is caused by the slide as it suddenly stops its rearward motion by then the bullet is long gone.

This is incorrect. Muzzle rise, the gun's rotation in the hand because the bore axis is higher than the hand, starts as soon as the bullet starts to move.

It sure as hell doesn't require the slide to suddenly stop - 'cause revolvers have muzzle rise, too.

This BS continue to come up in forums by people who think they know physics better than Sir Isaac Newton and physicists, and gets thoroughly debunked every time. Search the web and you'll find slow-motion video that shows the gun move and rotate before the bullet leaves the barrel.

**44 AMP** · December 16, 2018, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Now muzzle rise or flip,that being vertical,is caused by the slide as it suddenly stops its rearward motion by then the bullet is long gone.

Sorry, but this is not correct. The mass of the moving slide, and its "sudden" stop add to, but do NOT cause muzzle rise. If you think otherwise, go shoot a revolver!! Or a rifle that doesn't have a "straight line" stock.

Muzzle rise happens because the gun is held below the bore line. Since recoil is straight back, the gun being held below the bore line, this causes it to rotate, sending the muzzle up.

It's not noticeable by humans until after the bullet has left the barrel, and the greatest amount of movement happens after the bullet has left the barrel, but it begins the instant the bullet starts moving.

For the 200gr .45s, try loading them to the same velocity as the 230gr (they should still cycle the action) and that should put the point of impact closer to the point of aim. Slight adjustment of the load may be needed to get it perfect, or might not be, every gun is a bit of an individual.

Or, alternately, just aim higher!

polyphemus · December 16, 2018, 06:45 PM

. The mass of the moving slide, and its "sudden" stop add to, but do NOT cause muzzle rise. If you think otherwise, go shoot a revolver!! Or a rifle that doesn't have a "straight line" stockOf course I think otherwise neither a revolver nor a rifle is a semi auto pistoand I don't shoot either,so please tell us, what force exactly makes a muzzle rise

USSR · December 16, 2018, 06:57 PM

The mass of the moving slide, and its "sudden" stop add to, but do NOT cause muzzle rise. If you think otherwise, go shoot a revolver!! Or a rifle that doesn't have a "straight line" stock

Quote:

Of course I think otherwise neither a revolver nor a rifle is a semi auto pistoand I don't shoot either,so please tell us, what force exactly makes a muzzle rise

You've already been given the answer: "Muzzle rise happens because the gun is held below the bore line. Since recoil is straight back, the gun being held below the bore line, this causes it to rotate, sending the muzzle up".

Don

Don P · December 16, 2018, 07:11 PM

Perhaps load the 200 grain a little hotter than normal. experiment with the charge weights and see if accuracy improves any

polyphemus · December 16, 2018, 07:32 PM

Quote:

You've already been given the answer:

No,what force is pushing up the slide is not an opinion of what may be pushing up the slide if at at all during recoil.

zeke · December 16, 2018, 08:22 PM

If there is a force moving forward, there is a force moving backward. Without knowing the distance the op is shooting at, semi auto's show much less change in poi than revolvers, which don't usually have an unlocking barrel/recoil spring.

That much change in 200-230 grain acp at 25 yards may be reasonable if comparing target 200 grainer versus a heavy loaded 230 in light weight frame. If a 5 in steel frame, it be hard to tell the differing POI until you go up to a 255 grainer.

Course everyone be different.

Nodak1858 · December 16, 2018, 09:04 PM

Interesting video, right around the 10 second mark.
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y9apnbI6GA

Metal god · December 16, 2018, 09:57 PM

The interesting thing I notice is it “appears” there is no movement before the bullet leaves the barrel . However I think the black gun on black background makes it hard to see if it’s moving . Also you can’t see his his finger move on the trigger either and we know that had to move .

I’ll see if I can find another video with a little more contrast .

Metal god · December 16, 2018, 10:11 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm_xuzHHuG0

74A95 · December 16, 2018, 11:33 PM

Gun movement, slide movement, muzzle rise are all produced by recoil force and they begin as soon as the bullet starts to move. This is simple physics. As noted, the answer has been given.

polyphemus, this is not a debatable subject. This is all known fact. Either you understand the facts or you don't. You don't. This is a perfect opportunity to get educated on the subject.

If you're going to limit your 'knowledge' to what you experience, or think you experience and understand, you'll fit right in with the flat Earthers. They haven't been shot into space in a rocket so they make up lies about stuff that can be readily explained by everyday events. You don't have to believe the facts, but if you don't, you have a problem.

Want video evidence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-45lw5jfik

https://www.recoilweb.com/when-does-...ve-127274.html

December 15, 2018, 06:46 PM	#1
Brutus Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Posts: 1,023	200 vs. 230gr .45 ACP's A new conundrum, I've been shooting 200gr. plated FP in my .45's for years. All my .45's are adjustable sight 5" target models so no problem, until I made my latest purchase which is a fixed sight 4-1/4" commander which shoots my 200gr. handloads about 2" low. Gun is regulated for 230gr. ball ammo which is right on target. This is a self defense gun so I will stick with 230gr. Speer gold dot ammo for it. Problem is I have about 2,000 200gr. bullets on hand for target practice and I really don't want to start buying 230 grainers for this gun. What reloading options do I have to raise the poi 2"? __________________ Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak out, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen, Winston Churchill.

December 15, 2018, 07:40 PM	#3
Charlie98 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2006 Location: Great state of Texas Posts: 1,077	Do what I do (sort of)... shoot 200's in the adjustable sight models, and 230's in the fixed. __________________ _______________ "I have this pistol pointed at your heart!" "That is my least vulnerable spot."

December 15, 2018, 09:35 PM	#5
ms6852 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 1,394	Does not make sense that the 200 grain would hit 2" lower than the 230 grainers. I would still use the 200 grainers and adjust aim from 6'oclock to 12 o'clock. It appears that the 3/4'' inch loss in sight radius is making you aim low. __________________ ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.

December 16, 2018, 09:37 AM	#8
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	I have no answer, as i shoot 185s out of mine. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

December 16, 2018, 09:38 AM	#9
Brutus Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Posts: 1,023	Thanks for the feedback, odd that after all these years of reloading this is the first time I've run into this. Guess what I was hoping for was a slightly hotter/milder load that would raise the point of impact with the 200 grainers. __________________ Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak out, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen, Winston Churchill.

December 15, 2018, 08:25 PM	#4
1MoreFord Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2014 Location: Arkansas Posts: 244	You could also replace (or file down) the front sight so POA/POI are the same.

December 16, 2018, 08:33 AM	#7
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	You can run 230g and 200g at the same V,at that rate the smaller bullet would have less muzzle energy, to compensate for the loss you'd drive it faster. Muzzle rise takes place after the bullet exits and would have no effect on aim,by rights you should see no significant difference.

December 16, 2018, 12:29 PM	#12
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	I am not an expert, but I don't think slide movement and stopping (slamming into the stop) applies here. As mentioned by the gents above, muzzle movement starts when the bullet starts to move. How would you explain this same POI shift in a revolver? How else can you explain a lower point of impact with a lighter bullet? To me the explanations above are logical and obvious (and I've experienced this same phenomenon with my 200 gr bullets vs 230 gr bullets in my 45 ACPs)... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

December 16, 2018, 12:45 PM	#13
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	The couple things I’d point out is that the gun will only move perfectly straight back if your hand is directly centered on the center of the bore axis . When the hand is below this axis you create a pivot point allowing the muzzle to rise . Also unless you’re shooting at a very short distance . It does not take to much muzzle movement to create a POI shift . Anyone that’s had a laser on a handgun and tried to hold it perfectly still on a target 30’ away knows . Even when you feel you’re holding it still the laser is moving around an inch or two __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; December 16, 2018 at 03:19 PM.

December 16, 2018, 01:51 PM	#14
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	200g,230g Dozens of loads and a handful of bullet designs to boot. I would suggest to OP that he load the same type bullet to the same muzzle energy level and then steady rest test them for discrepancies in aim.

December 16, 2018, 06:45 PM	#17
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	. The mass of the moving slide, and its "sudden" stop add to, but do NOT cause muzzle rise. If you think otherwise, go shoot a revolver!! Or a rifle that doesn't have a "straight line" stockOf course I think otherwise neither a revolver nor a rifle is a semi auto pistoand I don't shoot either,so please tell us, what force exactly makes a muzzle rise

December 16, 2018, 07:11 PM	#19
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Perhaps load the 200 grain a little hotter than normal. experiment with the charge weights and see if accuracy improves any __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

December 16, 2018, 08:22 PM	#21
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	If there is a force moving forward, there is a force moving backward. Without knowing the distance the op is shooting at, semi auto's show much less change in poi than revolvers, which don't usually have an unlocking barrel/recoil spring. That much change in 200-230 grain acp at 25 yards may be reasonable if comparing target 200 grainer versus a heavy loaded 230 in light weight frame. If a 5 in steel frame, it be hard to tell the differing POI until you go up to a 255 grainer. Course everyone be different.

December 16, 2018, 09:04 PM	#22
Nodak1858 Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2009 Location: N. Dakota Posts: 435	Interesting video, right around the 10 second mark. http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y9apnbI6GA __________________ We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.

December 16, 2018, 09:57 PM	#23
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	The interesting thing I notice is it “appears” there is no movement before the bullet leaves the barrel . However I think the black gun on black background makes it hard to see if it’s moving . Also you can’t see his his finger move on the trigger either and we know that had to move . I’ll see if I can find another video with a little more contrast . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

December 16, 2018, 10:11 PM	#24
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm_xuzHHuG0 __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

December 16, 2018, 11:33 PM	#25
74A95 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2016 Posts: 1,568	Gun movement, slide movement, muzzle rise are all produced by recoil force and they begin as soon as the bullet starts to move. This is simple physics. As noted, the answer has been given. polyphemus, this is not a debatable subject. This is all known fact. Either you understand the facts or you don't. You don't. This is a perfect opportunity to get educated on the subject. If you're going to limit your 'knowledge' to what you experience, or think you experience and understand, you'll fit right in with the flat Earthers. They haven't been shot into space in a rocket so they make up lies about stuff that can be readily explained by everyday events. You don't have to believe the facts, but if you don't, you have a problem. Want video evidence? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-45lw5jfik https://www.recoilweb.com/when-does-...ve-127274.html