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Old February 9, 2020, 01:57 PM   #26
reynolds357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan View Post
How is a gun under the seat not concealed? Concealed means not visible.
Concealed means whatever the statute of each state says it means. Nothing about law is common sense. Its usually opposite of common sense.
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Old February 9, 2020, 02:02 PM   #27
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Only been stopped twice, in the 15 years we have lived in Florida. Winter Park.
First, a pure collecting fines stop! Radar trap in a 35 MPH zone. Snotty young Officer. He just asked for License/Insurance. I gave him same I never spoke.

Second, two biker cops "WE are going to tell your son" I was 5 over. Driving a marked security vehicle. Jokers.

Now working undercover, me and a young partner, in an old little 4 door Chevy.
Orlando City Policer had our information and was supposed to tell the shift coming on duty, we were out there, and armed.
Just concluded our shift, just pulled in to traffic, red and white lights, a wee blip on the klaxon. I pulled to the kerb, put 4 ways on. Told my young partner, keep quiet unless spoken too! And hands-on the dash.
I turned the engine off, parking brake on, keys on the dash. Hands at ten to two. And windows down.
The most gorgeous female Officer approached my window, film star material.
"I was informed you were parked for over two hours on the Hospital parking lot" "We informed your Dept. that we were working under-cover, and we were armed. Company Lic# as well." "You know the drill well, you have been stopped before?" I used to teach it, I said.
"Good night Sir." "Be safe Marm, and good night" I said.
Then I leaned over and closed my young partner's mouth!

And last but not least.
A visitor to the City, had rented a VW SUV at the AirPort some half an hour prior to turning across the dual Ave, and with lights off, no turn signal, and hitting me almost head-on, into the left front wheel of my two-year-old Jeep, writing it off.
There was another accident being worked on across the road, I asked the paramedic could he ask one of the Deputys to please attend.

"Deputy, these young fellas want to take me to the hospital, my blood pressure is through the roof. But I am carrying, I also have 5 other Glock pistols behind my seat. All unloaded, but the one I am carrying is loaded".
"Do you know how to unload a Glock 19?" "Yes," He said with a sigh.
Orange County carries Glock .45 ACP Pistols. I knew they did!
I had called a Buddy who worked for the City, to come and pick these six Glocks up. Two were in a fanny pack, 3 in a locked case. Thank goodness I was not in my last Country, Canada.

Last edited by Brit; February 12, 2020 at 11:53 AM.
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Old February 9, 2020, 02:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reynolds357
oncealed means whatever the statute of each state says it means.
And what Florida law prohibits a CCW permit holder or anyone else from having a legally owned firearm in their vehicle?
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Old February 9, 2020, 02:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Police officers consider it a courtesy ... to them. As already noted, some states require it. Where it's not required, it's up to each individual whether or not to inform in not asked directly. My choice would be not to inform.

Why?

Because I carry a 1911. In my experience in this corner of the universe, VERY few police officers know anything about the 1911 manual of arms -- manual safety; light, short trigger (compared to a Glock!); hammer; no magazine disconnect. I've read of and seen too many interactions where the officer decides he needs to take the motorist's gun and unload it, "for safety." Sorry, but my 1911 is completely safe resting in my holster, with the trigger covered, the thumb safety set, and the grip safety not depressed. It's a lot safer for all involved to just leave there rather than have Officer Friendly fumbling around with a gun he doesn't know how to work, trying to unload it to make it "safe."

[Note: My state does not mandate "must inform."]
Yep, I could write a book about all the negligent discharges I have seen leo do during my years of service. At a neighboring agency, their firearms instructor shot a student.
One of the guys on my shift shot a hole in his patrol car door with his 870. Chief took it away from him and shot the ceiling in his office unloading it.
I love this video.
https://youtu.be/vfONckOPyaI

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Old February 9, 2020, 02:13 PM   #30
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In my experience in this corner of the universe, VERY few police officers know anything about the 1911 manual of arms --
It isn't just your corner of the universe and it is isn't just 1911s.

Seems that many officers today (especially, but not limited to the younger ones) don't know much about firearms at all, other than the one(s) they are carrying.

Was watching of the "Cops" type shows a while back, and a pair of youngish officers stopped a guy, and took a DA REVOLVER off him. NEITHER of them knew how to unload it. (and apparently, neither did the camera guy). They had to call their Duty SGT, and wait for him to arrive (about 20 min) while the gun lay on the hood of their car, with one of them watching it like it was a coiled rattlesnake...

I don't expect cops to be firearms experts but I do expect them to have enough training to be able to "make safe" (unload) any of the standard firearms they are likely to encounter during the course of their duties, rifle, shotgun, or pistol.

If they don't, I consider it a defect in their training.
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Old February 9, 2020, 02:18 PM   #31
reynolds357
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
It isn't just your corner of the universe and it is isn't just 1911s.

Seems that many officers today (especially, but not limited to the younger ones) don't know much about firearms at all, other than the one(s) they are carrying.

Was watching of the "Cops" type shows a while back, and a pair of youngish officers stopped a guy, and took a DA REVOLVER off him. NEITHER of them knew how to unload it. (and apparently, neither did the camera guy). They had to call their Duty SGT, and wait for him to arrive (about 20 min) while the gun lay on the hood of their car, with one of them watching it like it was a coiled rattlesnake...

I don't expect cops to be firearms experts but I do expect them to have enough training to be able to "make safe" (unload) any of the standard firearms they are likely to encounter during the course of their duties, rifle, shotgun, or pistol.

If they don't, I consider it a defect in their training.
I know just about everything about a 1911, Thank you.

About half the SWAT teams carry 1911.
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Old February 9, 2020, 02:32 PM   #32
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GA law may have changed, but at one time under the seat, or in a pocket in the door was not legal. If the gun was visible, as in in the open in a seat or console it was legal. Or if it was not visible it had to be inaccessible. That meant inside a glove box or console with the door closed. With a permit the gun could be carried on the person. Under the seat, or in a door pocket was considered out of sight, but still easily accessible.

The rational was that during a traffic stop an officer could SEE any firearm that was accessible. If he couldn't see it, then it wouldn't be easily accessible. This was primarily directed toward those without a permit. Permit holders could of course carry concealed, but the way the law read the permit holder had to have the weapon on their person. Not under the seat.

Since about 2009 or 2010 carry laws have been changed a lot, and for the better. They may have changed this, but I'm wouldn't bet on it not still being on the books. I don't carry under the seat anyway so it isn't something I've kept up with.
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Old February 9, 2020, 02:57 PM   #33
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LEOs are just people.

It sounds like he didn't like the fact that you didn't mention it to him directly. I tend to accept you handing him your carry permit as polite "notice". Either way, I wouldn't think too much of it so long as you abide by the laws of your State regarding carriage of weapons and interaction with law enforcement.
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Old February 9, 2020, 03:10 PM   #34
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No Fault; However !!!!

Quote:
He then informed me that it was a courtesy to tell an officer if there is a weapon within reach. When he returned the DL, he brought it up again.
Why play guessing games with yourself and just present your CCW, Regardless of your states laws. It is definitely a courtesy and appreciated…..
Much like saying; thank you, yes sir and have a nice day. ……

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Old February 9, 2020, 03:42 PM   #35
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Had a county sheriff's deputy stop me after dark a few years back. Speeding I think. I turned off the engine, flipped on the interior dome light, and had hands at 10 and 2 on the wheel. When he asked for my DL I told him that I also had a CCW license, and had a handgun in a holster under the seat, and asked him how he wanted to proceed. He asked me why I told him about my CCW and the pistol. I told him it was a courtesy, and that I wanted him to know before it came back when he ran the license. His response was something like "I didn't ask you, and I don't care".
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Old February 9, 2020, 03:48 PM   #36
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Massad Ayoob and Tom Gresham did a video a few years back in which Massad pretty much says informing is the "right" thing to do. But ... he is (or was, I guess he's officially retired now) a police officer, so he views it from that perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT-nePQuT-s
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Old February 9, 2020, 04:30 PM   #37
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AFAIK, in Arizona you do not have to inform the officer that you are armed. However, now that we hare a constitutional state, has that law been changed. I never gave it much thought but the other night while in traffic school thanks to a ticket and accident I was involved in, the instructor brought up a couple of points. One, now that the stat is constitutional carry he estimate two out of every three people stop[ed for a traffic violation is most likely armed. He didn't say there was any change in the law but he did say one should notify the officer that he is armed. The way he said it makde it sound like it was now a mandatory thing.
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Old February 9, 2020, 06:26 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjwills
Is there some place that lists each state as to whether the law requires informing in this situation?
https://handgunlaw.us/ has everything you need to know.
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Old February 9, 2020, 07:16 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B.
AFAIK, in Arizona you do not have to inform the officer that you are armed. However, now that we hare a constitutional state, has that law been changed. I never gave it much thought but the other night while in traffic school thanks to a ticket and accident I was involved in, the instructor brought up a couple of points. One, now that the stat is constitutional carry he estimate two out of every three people stop[ed for a traffic violation is most likely armed. He didn't say there was any change in the law but he did say one should notify the officer that he is armed. The way he said it makde it sound like it was now a mandatory thing.
Arizona state law:

Quote:
13-3112. Concealed weapons; qualification; application; permit to carry; civil penalty; report; applicability

C. A permittee who carries a concealed weapon, who is required by section 4-229 or 4-244 to carry a permit and who fails to present the permit for inspection on the request of a law enforcement officer commits a violation of this subsection and is subject to a civil penalty of not more than three hundred dollars. The department of public safety shall be notified of all violations of this subsection and shall immediately suspend the permit. A permittee shall not be convicted of a violation of this subsection if the permittee produces to the court a legible permit that is issued to the permittee and that was valid at the time the permittee failed to present the permit for inspection.

D. A law enforcement officer shall not confiscate or forfeit a weapon that is otherwise lawfully possessed by a permittee whose permit is suspended pursuant to subsection C of this section, except that a law enforcement officer may take temporary custody of a firearm during an investigatory stop of the permittee.
https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?...s/13/03112.htm


For other states, here's a summary from a group called USACarry. I have no affiliation with them, and I can't vouch for the accuracy of their information ... but it's a start. Of course, I started with Arizona, and they got Arizona wrong on their map, so ... caveat emptor.

https://www.usacarry.com/duty-to-inform-laws/
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Old February 10, 2020, 12:22 PM   #40
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What could you have done better ???

Quote:
His response was something like "I didn't ask you, and I don't care".
You have little or no control, over what he said/says; Only what you said and did, which was the right thing to do by my measure. …..

L.B.C. and;
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Old February 10, 2020, 03:01 PM   #41
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Yes, it's a courtesy. The officer was giving you good advice. I was pulled over once and I made sure that my hands were on the steering wheel. My wallet was in the glove box with my gun. I explained all of this to the officer in advance and asked him how he wanted me to proceed. He first wanted me to hand the gun to him (I offered to let him retrieve it himself), which I did. He did make me get out of the car and wait for him to run a background on me. I just stood there. The one odd thing was that he unloaded the gun. The way he was handling the gun, I was a bit concerned that he would have a ND, so I informed him that there was a round in the chamber. He fumbled his way through unloading the gun, and then gave it back to me unloaded with bullets - after he was done.

Was the officer a little off on his procedure - probably, but I didn't want to have any problems, so I just assisted the best I could when asked.
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Old February 10, 2020, 06:38 PM   #42
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I taught a friend of mines wife to shoot an S&W Revolver, and a Glock 17, over about 4 hours. She was a natural! She loved the Glock. At 7M she shot the A-zone out of the IPSC target.
She had applied to a local Police Dept. I had my own training Company, not a favourite with the Police. I had stolen all their extra off duty cash. They were teaching at a local Community Colledge. But this did not make me popular. Plus my nickname of (Mad Mike)
Had to let you know what they thought of me!
I told this young Lady not to mention my name, to also say she had never fired a Hand Gun before the Police Colledge.

The Students fired the weapon that they were going to use at the Dept they were going too. In her case, a big chunk of steel, an S&W .40 Semi-Auto Stainless Steel.

Brenda shot on par with a Cop from another Police Officer, who was changing Police Departments. When she graduated, The Chief Instructor whispered on her way out "You know you you said you had never shot before Brenda." "You are so full of crap."
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Old February 10, 2020, 06:42 PM   #43
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Quote:
... very few officers know anything about the 1911...
Testify!

I was pulled over once years ago by a still-learning-the-ropes officer, who was riding with her FTO. The FTO secured my holstered 1911 (I didn't have it holstered on my body, but it was wedged between my right thigh and the seat). He clearly did not know the 1911, as he thought the safety was a decocker and he kept inadvertently pointing my gun at my feet.

Original thread question: Alaska used to require informing LEO immediately, I cannot find that statute anymore (last I looked was a year or so ago), but local police still expect the armed citizen to announce it. Not too complicated, have your ID in your hand, give it to the officer soon as they get to your window and I say something along the lines of "Hello! State law requires me to show you my ID and inform you that I am carrying." Havent had any negative response to that yet. Then again, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been pulled over in the last 20 years.


The rookie officer I mentioned above, she still had plenty to learn. It was a 4am pull over, I had just got off my second job as a bouncer, so I still had my pepper spray, two sets of cuffs, folding knife, a second can of pepper spray, and oh yeah, my body armor on. She missed the knife, the second set of cuffs, and the pepper spray entirely. The reason for the stop was stated for me 'failing to turn into the closest lane', but I knew they were fishing for a DUI. I was polite, respectful, and both of them were the same to me.
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Old February 10, 2020, 08:34 PM   #44
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I don't understand all the comments about not knowing the 1911. Don't you drop the mag and rack the slide to clear the chamber like just about every other semi auto on the planet? I don't have a 1911, but all of my semis with a safety have it in the same place(as a 1911) and they function pretty much the same. What am I missing?
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Old February 10, 2020, 09:46 PM   #45
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A while ago a Texas ranger pulled a guy over,,, When he got to the window, the rapped the driver on the head with his nightstick... and said... when you get pulled over in Texas, you have you hands on the wheel with drivers license in one hand and your insurance paper in the other.
the driver apologized and said he would do so, the next time.
The trooper walked around to the passenger side and tapped them window,,, the passenger lower his window and the trooper rapped him on the head. the passenger asked “why did you do that?” Trooper replied,,”for what you are going to say about two miles down the road”>
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Old February 10, 2020, 11:36 PM   #46
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Quote:
but all of my semis with a safety have it in the same place(as a 1911) and they function pretty much the same. What am I missing?
What you're missing is all the guns you don't have that have a safety on the slide, or the frame that works "up for off", does, or doesn't lock the slide, decocks or doesn't, in short all the DIFFERENT ways they can work. IF your car, and every car or truck you have is an automatic, do you know how to drive a standard, SAFELY??

I do, but then I've owned and driven them. Point here is, that, for whatever reason, if you don't know how to operate the mechanism, then YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO OPERATE THE MECHANISM.

As to a legal "duty to inform", check your state laws CAREFULLY. And consider this, even if you don't have a legal requirement to inform the officer, what are they going to think (and how will they react) if/when they SEE A GUN, that you DIDN'T tell them was going to be there???

People have been SHOT TO DEATH in those situations, and while it shouldn't happen, it has, and I'm pretty sure it will again.

That cop making the stop doesn't know you, and doesn't even know if the person behind the wheel is the person their license plate check says it should be.

I for one, don't relish the thought of being the target of some amped up officer shooting to slide lock because he saw a gun that I didn't warn him about, and is certain in his own mind that I plan to shoot him with it.

Are they all like that? Of course not. And this is, in no way meant to imply anything about the dedication and commitment to professionalism of our police officers. But it only take one, in just the right circumstances for really bad things to happen. Just look at the news....

Tell the officer you are armed, and ask him how he would like to proceed. Anything else is, to me, unacceptable risk.
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Old February 10, 2020, 11:56 PM   #47
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I may have oversimplified a bit with the 1911 question. Unloading a handgun is [to me] a pretty basic firearm handling exercise, even with the varying manual of arms of different firearms. If one follows the simple safety rules of firearms then the rest is trivial.

I can drive a standard too.
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Old February 10, 2020, 11:57 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarandTd
I don't have a 1911, but all of my semis with a safety have it in the same place(as a 1911) and they function pretty much the same. What am I missing?
A lot of police departments issue semi-autos that have no safety, and the training of new officers typically doesn't include teaching how guns other than Glocks (or whatever their department issues) work. 44 AMP covered it, to a degree. Now ... think about an officer who carries a Glock for duty, and who doesn't like guns so he never goes to a shooting range or sees or handles any other kind of pistol. Suddenly, he has a 1911 in his hand and he wants to unload it.

"Gee ... the slide won't move."

"Yeah, you have to take the safety off -- it's that little lever under your thumb."

Now the safety is off. Officer Friendly shoots a Glock ... once a year, for annual requalification. His Glock has about a 12-pound trigger that has to move half an inch or more to fire. He's now holding a 1911, which has a trigger that only has about 1/16th of an inch of pre-travel (at a weight of ONE pound or less), and then effectively zero additional trigger travel at a typical pull weight of 4 to 5 pounds to fire.

Thanks, but no thanks. It's a whole lot safer in my holster than it is with Officer Friendly playing with it while he tries to figure out how to unload it.
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Old February 11, 2020, 12:04 AM   #49
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I agree that the officers need not be handling and unloading the firearms of legally carrying, cooperative, and forthcoming citizens. It's just not necessary.
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Old February 11, 2020, 08:57 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Skwib View Post
Had a county sheriff's deputy stop me after dark a few years back. Speeding I think. I turned off the engine, flipped on the interior dome light, and had hands at 10 and 2 on the wheel. When he asked for my DL I told him that I also had a CCW license, and had a handgun in a holster under the seat, and asked him how he wanted to proceed. He asked me why I told him about my CCW and the pistol. I told him it was a courtesy, and that I wanted him to know before it came back when he ran the license. His response was something like "I didn't ask you, and I don't care".
The same Sergeant told me once, when asking about informing him you are CCW(he doesn't 'require' the info, nor does the city/county/state require it)..a stopped gent very 'proudly(he said), said, "I am legally carrying a weapon!", his answer, "good for you, so am I"...YMMV and all that.
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